944S destroyed engine... do I kill it or fix it?
- Thread starter Indi9xx
- Start date
Diver944
Active member
ORIGINAL: burrow01
I'm up for the pit crew / team decal applier [] -
I thought you were already our Logistics Manager as you've looked at the Rules and Regs already [
]I had a quick look at the 2006 Regs earlier and a couple of things leapt out -
http://www.eerc.co.uk/cms/e107_plugins/wrap/regsdocs/2006_Britcar_Production_S1_Regulations_Issue_5.pdf
All entrants must use Dunlop tyres
2.5 litre cars can use up to 10" wide rims (any diameter is acceptable)
Engine and head must be standard (theres a bhp/weight table for which class you're in)
Brakes must not be Carbon (apart from pads) and ducting no larger than 10cm
Drivers aren't allowed to do more than 3 hour stints [
][][][]Drivers must have 2 hours rest between stints
sawood12
New member
Just taken a quick look at the rules and it does say "The engine (crancase and cylinder head) must remain original in all cases as the enigne is manufactured, an alternative engine can be fitted to the car but it has to be the same make of manufacture as the car...." Does this scupper the 8V transplant plan? How would they know unless they were checking chassis numbers - what are the differences between a Lux and an S apart from the engine? Or when it says the engine must be original in all cases as the engine is manufactured mean that as long as the enigne you transplant is original then it is OK?
If the car is entered as a late Lux I don't see that there would be an issue. We could contact the organisers but this may just confuse things.
I my experience, assuming a car is safe, scrutineers are unlikely to dismiss an entry on a technicality. Possible exclusion only comes about if other competitors lodge a complaint when they think another car has an unfair advantage. I doubt this would be the situation in our case as, theoretically, we would be disadvantaging ourselves.
What would be nice is if one could use 220 Turbo brakes as the Lux floating calliper is going to suffer.
I my experience, assuming a car is safe, scrutineers are unlikely to dismiss an entry on a technicality. Possible exclusion only comes about if other competitors lodge a complaint when they think another car has an unfair advantage. I doubt this would be the situation in our case as, theoretically, we would be disadvantaging ourselves.
What would be nice is if one could use 220 Turbo brakes as the Lux floating calliper is going to suffer.
Peter Empson
PCGB Member
Whilst I'm not presupposing that I would be chosen as one of the drivers assuming the car is able to make the event, I have nonetheless been trying to get my head around racing license situation anyway, as its something I've always promised myself that I would do one day.
Am I right in understanding that its as simple as buying the welcome pack (£50ish), passing a medical and then going on the ARDS course (circa £250).
From then on its just a case of renewing the license (any idea how often and how much John?).
Does this sound right, or have I missed something important?
If it is going to happen then I will even try to get fitter in time, hell I've even decided to cut back on the beers and watch what I eat. However like all good resolutions this one will probably start tomorrow
Am I right in understanding that its as simple as buying the welcome pack (£50ish), passing a medical and then going on the ARDS course (circa £250).
From then on its just a case of renewing the license (any idea how often and how much John?).
Does this sound right, or have I missed something important?
If it is going to happen then I will even try to get fitter in time, hell I've even decided to cut back on the beers and watch what I eat. However like all good resolutions this one will probably start tomorrow
Hi - I read that also, but my interpretation would be that an original, unmodified (blueprinted?) Porsche 8v engine (no mods) would count as an alternative engine of the the same make of manufacture as the car ( and how would they know - given that Porsche themselves swapped engines and model names around between 924's and 944's for Le Mans [
])I cannot imagine that anyone would be penalised for swapping a lower power engine into a car [
]Pete
Hi
Quote from the Regs - "Any vehicle failing to comply with the prescriptions of the FIA International
Sporting Code App J, MSA Safety Regulations app Q of the current MSA Yearbook"
I assume this refers to Safety Equipment, roll cages, cutoff switches etc - does someone have an upto date copy of these regs?
Technical Regs say "As for the rest, the braking system is free."
Suspension parts can also be replaced as long as the same type of suspension is utilised
Pete
That is it.....kind of. It's a lot like Licenses on Gran Tourismo. Passing the ARDS course will gain you a Race National "B" Licence which will allow you to compete in National "B" events.
For the first 10 events you need to have a novice cross on the back of the car. Each race you have to obtain a signature from the Clerk of the Course confirming you completed the race without endangering others. Once you have 10 signatures you can then loose the cross and apply for a Race National A Licence. This allows access to National A events.
If you then want an International Licence you have to get another lot of signatures. International has two levels and then you have the Super Licence.
Each level of Licence is more expensive. My last Licence was a National A which, I think was £85 per year. I did start collecting sigs toward an International B but then decided it wasn't worth the extra £50 per year, or what ever it was, for pose value alone.
ORIGINAL: burrow01
...... MSA Safety Regulations app Q of the current MSA Yearbook"
This is what is known as "The Blue Book" . You get a copy with your ARDS application, as you are meant to read and memorise it for the exam. You also get a new copy each year with your licence. Formula regs will cross reference the Blue Book with regard to type of roll cage, fire suppression, tyres etc. Any car will require an approved cage, kill switch, and tow eyes. Fire suppression depends on the formula and can be anything from an approved hand held extinguisher to a full automatic plumbed in system. Approved tyres are also listed but again, formula organisers can prescribe a control tyre provided it is approved.
Peter Empson
PCGB Member
Thanks John, that makes a lot of sense.
Last question! From what I've just read the ARDS test is part written and then 5 laps with an instructor who will advise you on the right lines and will check for a basic (safe) level of competence. This sounds rather simplistic to me, are you really considered ready to take part in a race just after that?
Last question! From what I've just read the ARDS test is part written and then 5 laps with an instructor who will advise you on the right lines and will check for a basic (safe) level of competence. This sounds rather simplistic to me, are you really considered ready to take part in a race just after that?
It was 10 years ago that I did mine but, from what I remember:-
Two of us were doing the course on the day (at Mallory as it happens) The two of us went out in a Golf for a number of laps where the instructor taught heel and toeing, lines and the like. Both of us drove.
After the initial tuition you drive several more laps when the instructor marks you on car control, sympathetic use of the car, lines and ability to attain an appropriate speed.
Following that it is into a class room for the idiots guide to motor sport. After this it is a gruelling multiple guess exam which I think my Little Pete would pass.
Assuming you get a pass then you get to drive a single seater for a few laps.
Two of us were doing the course on the day (at Mallory as it happens) The two of us went out in a Golf for a number of laps where the instructor taught heel and toeing, lines and the like. Both of us drove.
After the initial tuition you drive several more laps when the instructor marks you on car control, sympathetic use of the car, lines and ability to attain an appropriate speed.
Following that it is into a class room for the idiots guide to motor sport. After this it is a gruelling multiple guess exam which I think my Little Pete would pass.
Assuming you get a pass then you get to drive a single seater for a few laps.
Indi9xx
New member
I am now looking into, if this is to be a go, all the logistics etc
I also have another car as a possibility, a 2.5 944 lux 8 valve, 1985, in white and no sun roof.
This car may turn out to be lighter than the S shell, I will have to check my notes.
It currently has a genuine set of turbo front body pannels and turbo rear diffuser which will make it look better in photo's etc, but the regs may mean I put the S front pannels on it so its back to being a lux.
I would also probably put the S rear beam on it and front wishbones, so it can run late offset wheels. If we are allowed.
Alternatively we can use the S... I will have to run some logistical thoughts through the old grey matter.
Also, if we are allowed, I also have a secret stash of parts, including a full Koni MO30 setup, 968 M030 anti roll bars, 944 S2 hubs and calipers. If we are allowed these parts.
Simon has also mentioned that he can build an engine for it, blue printed and tweaked, if we are allowed.
I would probably look at trying to make sure we have two transmissions on the day, several sets of wheels, a stash of parts and at least 3 mechanics from the workshop, possibly more, not including some enthusiastic drivers to pitch in at the pit.
Obviously I am not loaded - But the car, any parts, car transportation, service truck, tools, mechanics, etc I can provide... But we may need help getting a cage and other safety equipment. we may also need a transponder and lots of other odds and ends.
I think also the car will need to be finished way before the race, so at least 1000 to 2000 miles can be put on it as a shake down and ideally a track day for the drivers to get used to it, adjustments and for driver input.
We also need to find out what all the regs are... what mods we are allowed, whate loopholes there are which may allow us to use hop up parts from either the aftermarket or from higher spec models.
Also everyone needs to remember that an accident or car failure could lead to a driver or drivers not getting their turn or turns... If for example the car is crashed or blown up beyond repair on the first lap by driver 1, drivers 2, 3, 4, 5 and six would have to live with that and put it down to "thats racing", its a bitter pill, to a great extent avoidable, but it could happen. I for example would be going in fully expecting for the car not to come back in any shape or form should it all go wrong in a big way.
Anyway, no promises at this stage... but so far I am fine with the idea... shocked and stunned, but fine
I also have another car as a possibility, a 2.5 944 lux 8 valve, 1985, in white and no sun roof.
This car may turn out to be lighter than the S shell, I will have to check my notes.
It currently has a genuine set of turbo front body pannels and turbo rear diffuser which will make it look better in photo's etc, but the regs may mean I put the S front pannels on it so its back to being a lux.
I would also probably put the S rear beam on it and front wishbones, so it can run late offset wheels. If we are allowed.
Alternatively we can use the S... I will have to run some logistical thoughts through the old grey matter.
Also, if we are allowed, I also have a secret stash of parts, including a full Koni MO30 setup, 968 M030 anti roll bars, 944 S2 hubs and calipers. If we are allowed these parts.
Simon has also mentioned that he can build an engine for it, blue printed and tweaked, if we are allowed.
I would probably look at trying to make sure we have two transmissions on the day, several sets of wheels, a stash of parts and at least 3 mechanics from the workshop, possibly more, not including some enthusiastic drivers to pitch in at the pit.
Obviously I am not loaded
- But the car, any parts, car transportation, service truck, tools, mechanics, etc I can provide... But we may need help getting a cage and other safety equipment. we may also need a transponder and lots of other odds and ends.I think also the car will need to be finished way before the race, so at least 1000 to 2000 miles can be put on it as a shake down and ideally a track day for the drivers to get used to it, adjustments and for driver input.
We also need to find out what all the regs are... what mods we are allowed, whate loopholes there are which may allow us to use hop up parts from either the aftermarket or from higher spec models.
Also everyone needs to remember that an accident or car failure could lead to a driver or drivers not getting their turn or turns... If for example the car is crashed or blown up beyond repair on the first lap by driver 1, drivers 2, 3, 4, 5 and six would have to live with that and put it down to "thats racing", its a bitter pill, to a great extent avoidable, but it could happen. I for example would be going in fully expecting for the car not to come back in any shape or form should it all go wrong in a big way.
Anyway, no promises at this stage... but so far I am fine with the idea... shocked and stunned, but fine
Diver944
Active member
Blimey! See what happens when you post a tongue in cheek reply on a car forum [] If Jon is prepared to put all that effort in to it then I am more than up for it. I fully understand the situation regarding a car on a race track, with lots of other cars and 5 other drivers waiting for their turn in the pits. Thats a heck of a lot of pressure. I'm sure none of us want to stuff it up and ruin everyone elses weekend. Bagsy I go first tho []
Once we are all confirmed that we want to do this then the first thing to do is for the non Licenced guys to get ARDS'sd up (then we need to cancel all our trackdays and just do Silverstone all year). Night driving - yikes!
] If Jon is prepared to put all that effort in to it then I am more than up for it. I fully understand the situation regarding a car on a race track, with lots of other cars and 5 other drivers waiting for their turn in the pits. Thats a heck of a lot of pressure. I'm sure none of us want to stuff it up and ruin everyone elses weekend. Bagsy I go first tho []Once we are all confirmed that we want to do this then the first thing to do is for the non Licenced guys to get ARDS'sd up (then we need to cancel all our trackdays and just do Silverstone all year). Night driving - yikes!
924nutter
PCGB Member
If you are talking about how would they identify the engine, well the differences in the cam covers are obvious. (Especially if Rick and John get the 8v mahogany cam-tower version sorted[
])If I am not mistaken peak revs for the S are higher. Granted it is 12 years since I had mine but I'm pretty sure that the limiter would cut in at 6,800 in the S. I see the facility to be able to rev the alleged 8v engine higher than Porsche intended, depending on its ablity to aspirate, as being an advantage over 944 Lux limited to whatever they are, is it 6,400? Or are we getting into changing E.C.U.s as well. Minefield! Anyone care to verify those rev limits?
sawood12
New member
ORIGINAL: 924nutter
If you are talking about how would they identify the engine, well the differences in the cam covers are obvious. (Especially if Rick and John get the 8v mahogany cam-tower version sorted[
If I am not mistaken peak revs for the S are higher. Granted it is 12 years since I had mine but I'm pretty sure that the limiter would cut in at 6,800 in the S. I see the facility to be able to rev the alleged 8v engine higher than Porsche intended, depending on its ablity to aspirate, as being an advantage over 944 Lux limited to whatever they are, is it 6,400? Or are we getting into changing E.C.U.s as well. Minefield! Anyone care to verify those rev limits?
I meant more along the lines of if we put an 8v engine into a 944S chassis and try to pass if off as a Lux how would the scrutineers know we have an S chassis with an 8V Lux engine transplanted without going into detail with chassis numbers and engine number comparisons? As far as i'm aware the body looks the same (apart from the badge on the rear) and the cars share the same suspension and running gear.
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