944S destroyed engine... do I kill it or fix it?

[924nutter]

Sorry, missed your point. There are descrete 16 ventiler badges in the body colour by the side repeaters. Not exactly a big deal.
If it turned out to be successful you betcha they'd find out.
Oh the embarrassment when they spot four pretty little recesses in each piston. For all we know, someone has already tried this, not as a ruse, but in all innocence, and the scruitineers, aware of the increased rev limits, and comparative ease of doing it, may well have already devised a method of checking. It is no big deal to whip out a 'plug and peer into the cylinder with a boroscope.

 

[edh]

I don't think it matters what engine you run (as long as you declare it )

According to December 911 & PW, The BBG 944 that ran last year had a blueprinted S2 motor with 240-250 bhp

It weighed in at 990kg, had Leda dampers, Turbo box, S2 brakes, so I guess any combination of 944 bits will do just fine.

 

[John Sims]

Britcar is a full series so it would be invaluable to go to a couple of the earlier events and have a chat with some of the competitors. It is amazing what you can learn. You also get to know what people do as a standard solution to parts of the regs. It might be worth entering one or two races prior to the big event to get a feel for the car, the competition, and (for those that haven't) what a race is like.

Someone within the Team may have to join the Club that organises the event, but I don't know if this is mandatory.

With regard to Jon's pit garages question: The organising Club may run several different series races at one event. They will allocate garages to which ever series they decide. I an amateur series it is unlikely you would have exclusive use of a garage as they may allocate 10 garages to a series with 30 competitors for example.

While it is not what some might want to hear, if we are going to do this with half a view to getting a place, it might be better to prepare the car and do a couple of series events this year. Go along, but not compete in the 24hr, to see how it all works. Then next year mount a proper entry for the 24hr.

The advantage in pre-competing, if you can call it that, is that within a series you establish a hierarchy. This is partly through results but also due to how you behave on the track and in the paddock. It is helpful to establish yourself within this community as, you get all the tips and hints, the news and gossip and a helping hand if required. You don't inadvertently want to ally yourself with someone who is universally hated by the rest of the grid -there again I guess it doesn't make any difference for one event. Just a thought.

 

[944Turbo]

Getting excited now, this will be excellent if we can do it,
Tony

 

[944Turbo]

This months Porsche Post - 24hr race of Bahrain a standard 944 rebuilt from a write off that entered simply to prove what can be achieved with dedication. It completed 287 laps (1,779.4 km) against 486 laps of the winning 996RSR

Tony

 

[Diver944]

I've been looking through the results of last years Porsche Club Championship to get a feel of the speed differential between the front runers and the tail enders. The fastest of the GT3 cup cars was lapping Silverstone in around 2m05s, the slowest of the 2.5 944s was around 2m25s so that means in a 24hr race it would be lapped once every 6 laps by the leaders and be 100 laps down at the end.

Obviously this doesn't allow for fuel and tyre stops and interestingly the rules state the faster class of cars have to make compulsary longer stops for fuel than the slower cars. A well organised budget team could gain a bit of time there and also have to stop less often due to greater fuel efficiency (though in reality our part time and unfit drivers would probably need resting more often )

 

[944Turbo]

I am just preparing to start my keep fit campaign

but currently 1/2 an hour in a Kart is knackering, so yes, shorter stinsts would be better. If we run P6000's can we drop the pit tyre changes

We better start increasing the length of our GTL races.

Tony

 

[carlmthompson]

I'm definately serious - but would need all of the necessary, Racing License, full clobber etc. I'm more than willing to do it - especially if it's going to be organised together!

I also think John's idea is more practical - being a complete novice, I would rather get a feel for it in some of the lesser events, and go for the 24 hrs after a bit of practise!

In all seriousness, a list of the likely costs would be good too - Even down to the boots!

This all might give me the incentive I need to part with the Turbo and buy a cheap track car to get started! It might be a good source of parts come the day also!!

 

[John Sims]

ORIGINAL: carlmthompson

.......In all seriousness, a list of the likely costs would be good too - Even down to the boots!.....

http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/default.asp?cls=MSPORT

 

[carlmthompson]

Cool.

So what is necessary, and what is optional?

i.e I know the Nomex underwear is probably a good idea, but what's the minimum to be allowed on track?

I've got start up costs down so far as:-

Helmet £95
Suit £95
Gloves £31
Shoes £48

Racing Licence £300

Without any other expenses like travel etc, that's already £470 buying the cheapest everything - while risking the blindingly obvious answer, what's the difference between the OMP Integrale £95 helmet, and the next up the line OMP Turismo £216 helmet?

What else? Obviously there's a share of the entry fees, consumables etc.etc.

Jon's offer is very generous and I would hate to miss out by not being prepared!!

 

[sawood12]

ORIGINAL: carlmthompson

This all might give me the incentive I need to part with the Turbo and buy a cheap track car to get started! It might be a good source of parts come the day also!!

Well if you are serious in the back of the latest Porsche Post there is a 924 race car for sale that is fully prepared and ready to go complete with trailier, and it is a car with race winning and good results history - all for £2,250. I've been mulling this over in my head all week but have decided against it as I have nowhere to strore it, I would need a towing car/van and am not prepared to part with the turbo. A bloomin' cheap way into racing though.

 

[carlmthompson]

ORIGINAL: sawood12


Well if you are serious in the back of the latest Porsche Post there is a 924 race car for sale that is fully prepared and ready to go complete with trailier, and it is a car with race winning and good results history - all for £2,250. I've been mulling this over in my head all week but have decided against it as I have nowhere to strore it, I would need a towing car/van and am not prepared to part with the turbo. A bloomin' cheap way into racing though.

Sounds good - unfortunately I would have to sell the Turbo first for the same space reasons. My estate would pull the trailer no probs though! Also not sure about getting a car that's not road legal, as this is part of the fun (don't know if it is as haven't got round to reading the Post yet!)

 

[Alex Postan]

You are rightly enthusiastic but I suspect that you might be in danger of re-inventing the wheel. Don't start with a worn out old dog with a blown up motor, if it was that easy there wouldn't be a pro race team in existence anywhere. Buy a good secondhand racecar and play with that instead. 968 comes to mind or even a 3.2 carrera. If you try and build your own it will cost you far more and will not be on the pace nor will it run without problems.
Do some racing with it first before you get stuck in to a 24 hour event.
If you are forming a syndicate, write down the rules of the game (i.e. who's in charge, who is to be the treasurer, who pays for what and what your objectives are - and most important how do you get out of it when it all goes wrong and what is expected of each partner), open a bank account and front up £2500 each to buy a car. Then you can really start to spend some money.
John Ballentyne (the B in BBG who did so well with their 944) is an old chum of mine and I've done 4 24 hour races with him in a different decade, some in my cars and some in his, . He knows his stuff, he is quick and experienced and has learned what to do and what not to do. If you want to ask for his help and advice, give me a call and I'll make an introduction for you.
The 24 hour event will cost you rather more than you might expect.
It will be the best thing that you've ever done in your lives[]

 

[John Sims]

ORIGINAL: carlmthompson

........- while risking the blindingly obvious answer, what's the difference between the OMP Integrale £95 helmet, and the next up the line OMP Turismo £216 helmet?....

The £95 one isn't BS6658-58 A/FR approved it is only BS6658 Type A approved. I haven't got the current Blue Book so don't know if the cheap one would get a sticker. Your helmet has to comply with the current regs to get the appropriate sticker. The sticker is changed every year, NO STICKER NO RACE.

Subject to the Blue Book and Formula Regs, you may need an FIA approved race suit not Proban. The cheapest proper race suits are £200. Your life, or someone else's life, may depend on the quality of your fire protection. It isn't an area where I would want to skimp. I would be pretty pissed off if I had to climb into a burning car to drag you out because you didn't buy the proper gear.

Jon has already said that he needs to buy a cage, fire suppression and kill switches. The car will need an FIA approved harness and (having had a mate not die because of his seat) I would recommend an FIA approved seat. To be honest I don't want to be involved with a team who isn't going to do the job properly. This is the real deal here boys, people get paralysed or die doing this.

Tyres, brakes, and fuel will all have to be paid for as well. Note in the regs (pdf supplied earlier) that it specifies circuit fuel which is a good bit pricier than pump fuel. Assuming the car completed 24hrs you have got to be looking at £500+ of fuel (say 1 tank @ £50 for 2 hours = £600) . IMHO the drivers should be paying for all of the above and would still be getting a damn good deal.

 

[John Sims]

Thanks for your comments Alex. All very valid and with obvious reference to experience.

My only disagreement would be with regard to the car. I have every confidence in Jon and Simons abillity to prepare a car. Having seen some very sorry heaps compete in races, and had first hand experience of some of the post incident lash ups undertaken to get a race car back on the circuit, I would be far happier in what I knew to be a solid car than something unknown.

None of us (I hope) are under any illusion about getting anywhere. However, (accidents aside) it would be nice to think we might finish. When it comes to 944's I think Jon is as likely (if not more so) to get us to the finish line than anyone else I know. The car might not be the fastest or lightest but I believe Jon can deliver a solid package.

 

[John Sims]

Sorry Alex, I've climbed off my soap box now. (A bit of solidarity within the Team is no bad thing though [])

I would greatly value the chance to have a beer with you and John Ballentyne. Once we establish this campaign on a solid footing (so as not to waste your time) I would very much like to sort that out with you. Thank you for the offer.

 

[carlmthompson]

ORIGINAL: John Sims


The £95 one isn't BS6658-58 A/FR approved it is only BS6658 Type A approved. I haven't got the current Blue Book so don't know if the cheap one would get a sticker. Your helmet has to comply with the current regs to get the appropriate sticker. The sticker is changed every year, NO STICKER NO RACE.



Subject to the Blue Book and Formula Regs, you may need an FIA approved race suit not Proban. The cheapest proper race suits are £200. Your life, or someone else's life, may depend on the quality of your fire protection. It isn't an area where I would want to skimp. I would be pretty pissed off if I had to climb into a burning car to drag you out because you didn't buy the proper gear.

That's why I asked - if I'm buying I want to buy the right stuff, and need to pass the expense by the other half (okay, call her boss)!

Jon has already said that he needs to buy a cage, fire suppression and kill switches. The car will need an FIA approved harness and (having had a mate not die because of his seat) I would recommend an FIA approved seat. To be honest I don't want to be involved with a team who isn't going to do the job properly. This is the real deal here boys, people get paralysed or die doing this.

Totally agree and well aware of the risks!

Tyres, brakes, and fuel will all have to be paid for as well. Note in the regs (pdf supplied earlier) that it specifies circuit fuel which is a good bit pricier than pump fuel. Assuming the car completed 24hrs you have got to be looking at £500+ of fuel (say 1 tank @ £50 for 2 hours = £600) . IMHO the drivers should be paying for all of the above and would still be getting a damn good deal.

Totally agree.

I also think it would be a good idea to put into a pot as a "share" of the car (or a driver of the car). This pot could be held by Jon as an "insurance" against his time being wasted. Don't get me wrong - I'm not trying to do this on the cheap, but need a ball park figure on what it would cost - i.e if it costs £2-3k to get started in the first year, then (if all goes well!) £1-2k per year thereafter, I could probably justify it - but if the costs are going to get more than this, then that would require more thought / spare income / sell kidneys / lungs / non essential organs etc. etc.

I think Alex may have missed the point slightly though - If the car is competetive because of Jon's obviously talented work, then great, but the most important thing from my mind is to take part and:-

a) do it with as little outlay as possible (without compromising on safety!)
b) have a cracking experience that would normally be out of reach of my modest incomings (especially considering this is wahay out of my day to day field of work!)
c) keep it as fun as possible (again, without the compromising on safety!)

Is this what everyone else expects? Or am I missing the point!


Edited to say - thanks and sorry to Alex as you raise valid points, with more experience - wasn't trying to say you're wrong - just a slightly different viewpoint on the reasons for taking part!

 

[John Sims]

In honesty, whether Jon's car is "competitive" or not is academic. In the real world (ie away from Hollywood) it takes years of dedication to get anywhere near the front - no matter how good the car is. All we can ask of Jon is to provide a safe package capable of completing the event.

I have some thoughts on how I think all of this should be arranged which I will discuss with Jon. At the end of the day it is only my opinion. It is Jon's car and he has to be in full agreement.

 

[Diver944]

Hi Alex, that could be really useful that you know John Ballentyne, we may well be making use of your offer []

As for a syndicate, well that would be a bit overcomplicated for this little idea. The whole thing started off with Jon Mitchell wanting to dispose of one of his broken cars and asking for ideas. I rather flippantly replied he should fix it and enter it in the 24 HR with six cheapskate Register members paying £1k for the privelidge to drive it.

We know full well it would cost a lot more than this to prepare the car and enter it, along with all the consumables along the way, but Jon has taken the idea onboard and is looking in to it - yikes []. If he decides that it's just not feasable for his business then thats fine with me, its his decison and his car. The rest of us are all pretty matey and I think we are all of the same opinion that it's Jons call and I doubt any of us wants to get involved with a joint ownership racecar scenario.

If nothing does come of it this year then it has certainly sowed a seed in my mind for the future and it has sparked off a pretty interesting and entertaining thread []

 

[Fen]

I agree with John and Paul. Personally I am up for doing it this year in a safe and sensible way, but it has to be done in a 944 and it is far better if we can be involved in the whole preparation experience also. I would not expect to do any better than come last, but if we could do that in such a way as to have fun and not upset the real racers then I'd be happy. I also agree that next year might be better, but I would then probably dip out as it is more likely than not that I won't be in the UK in summer 2008. For the same reason I would not be interested in joining a syndicate - this would have to be a one-off thing for me. If I can be part of it and it suits me I'm very keen to do it, but if it isn't viable or it takes a direction that isn't compatible with my circumstances then I will revert to interested bystander.