964 RS Touring
- Thread starter TISPKJ
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Fair question, Jason
Comparison with the l/w RS, 964 above all to look in detail at the spec differences and then consideration of whether the 'upholstered' version feels significantly different.
Btw, I would also be grateful for a presentable RS lightweight for the other half of this story. Anybody living west home counties up for this, please? Likely to take a day of your time.
Thanks in advance
Kieron Fennelly
Comparison with the l/w RS, 964 above all to look in detail at the spec differences and then consideration of whether the 'upholstered' version feels significantly different.
Btw, I would also be grateful for a presentable RS lightweight for the other half of this story. Anybody living west home counties up for this, please? Likely to take a day of your time.
Thanks in advance
Kieron Fennelly
I believe the orginal clutch and flywheel in the Tourings were from the standard C2. I don't suppose my Touring is alone in having had a new RS clutch and flywheel- that'd make quite a difference to the "feel"
Maybe a tall order - spec of tourings was much more variable than the 'lightweight' (where did that term come from - not Porsche) and most RS's have some mods - if only a strut brace.
Always nice to see a couple of cars in print but it would be really interesting is to include an RS America and a standard Carrera 2 for comparison.
Tony
Nice idea chaps. I'd love to include all of them, but I'm editorially committed to comparing with the l/w RS 964 (still looking for a kind volunteer with one of these, by the way).
Bromley on June 13 sounds like the venue for a proper RS tea party. We'll get you all in the picture for that one.
My write up on the RS America is on www.rsamerica.net, which, incidentally, is a rather good website
Kieron Fennelly
Bromley on June 13 sounds like the venue for a proper RS tea party. We'll get you all in the picture for that one.
My write up on the RS America is on www.rsamerica.net, which, incidentally, is a rather good website
Kieron Fennelly
It's my understanding that the 964RS Clubsport is the N-GT.
The RSR is the 3.8 ??
Actually, mine was for a time a 3.8 (new barrels and pistons) --- and at that time the then owner designated it an RSR. Which of course it wasn't.
9M kindly lifted the 3.8 barrels and pistons when they rebuilt the engine to 3.6 spec with ARP bolts and various other strengthenings to make it more resistant to the possibility of a missed shift !!
So, numbers original !!
RSR --- discuss ! [
]
The RSR is the 3.8 ??
Actually, mine was for a time a 3.8 (new barrels and pistons) --- and at that time the then owner designated it an RSR. Which of course it wasn't.
9M kindly lifted the 3.8 barrels and pistons when they rebuilt the engine to 3.6 spec with ARP bolts and various other strengthenings to make it more resistant to the possibility of a missed shift !!
So, numbers original !!
RSR --- discuss ! [
]
Interesting discussion...
There's obviously some confusion here and I'm not surprised because any book you read on 964RS History seems to tell the tale as the author sees it (which can often be different to what actually happened, and wasn't documented, at the factory).
I think if Jason has the real story he needs to step up to the mark and tell us. []
The sources I've read state that M003 Competition versions of the 964 with 99 as the 13th and 14th digits in their VINs were known as Clubsport or RSR. Which could imply that Hugh's 3.6 clubsport could be known as an RSR. Alternatively, it might be interpreted that M003 cars were known as EITHER Clubsport OR RSR depending on final delivery spec. So which is it? Was there a narrow-bodied 3.6RSR also known as a clubsport/N-GT?
The wide-bodied 3.8RSR is THE car we all refer to as the RSR nowadays - which may simply be due to it becoming accepted protocol over the years. "The RSR is the 3.8 wide-bodied one, right?" If anyone mentions an RSR - we all immediately picture a wide-bodied 964RS with 3.8 engine and big spoilers. Basically, Ben's beautiful white car.
So, was the 3.6 N-GT/Clubsport originally referred to as an RSR by the factory?
Edited to say: "Excellence Was Expected" isn't clear.
Adrian Streather's "Porsche 911 Enthusiast's Companion" isn't clear.
Currently looking at other books to see what they say.
There's obviously some confusion here and I'm not surprised because any book you read on 964RS History seems to tell the tale as the author sees it (which can often be different to what actually happened, and wasn't documented, at the factory).
I think if Jason has the real story he needs to step up to the mark and tell us. [
]The sources I've read state that M003 Competition versions of the 964 with 99 as the 13th and 14th digits in their VINs were known as Clubsport or RSR. Which could imply that Hugh's 3.6 clubsport could be known as an RSR. Alternatively, it might be interpreted that M003 cars were known as EITHER Clubsport OR RSR depending on final delivery spec. So which is it? Was there a narrow-bodied 3.6RSR also known as a clubsport/N-GT?
The wide-bodied 3.8RSR is THE car we all refer to as the RSR nowadays - which may simply be due to it becoming accepted protocol over the years. "The RSR is the 3.8 wide-bodied one, right?" If anyone mentions an RSR - we all immediately picture a wide-bodied 964RS with 3.8 engine and big spoilers. Basically, Ben's beautiful white car.
So, was the 3.6 N-GT/Clubsport originally referred to as an RSR by the factory?
Edited to say: "Excellence Was Expected" isn't clear.
Adrian Streather's "Porsche 911 Enthusiast's Companion" isn't clear.
Currently looking at other books to see what they say.
As far as I am aware - I shan't say "concerned" as I am clearly biased [] - only 964 RSR that existed is the 3.8.
3.8 RSR has a number of fundamental differences straight out of the box compared to the 3.8 RS or 3.8 N-GT albeit that the RSR could be pretty much spec'ed as the customer wished. I mention this as it is not the case with the 3.6 if comparing RS to N-GT e.g. ABS system on 3.8 RSR is unique across the 964 RS family regardless of whether talking 3.6 / 3.8 or narrow-body / wide-body.
I suspect that the confusion has arisen over the time in the same way that it has or certainly used to with the 993 N-GT and more specifically the RHD version which has frequently been referred to incorrectly as an "RSR". Something in the back of mind is saying that the RHD may even have been referred to in some marketing material as an "RSR"- does this ring any bells with anybody? Again 993 RSR is a different beastie to the 993 Clubsport / N-GT.
] - only 964 RSR that existed is the 3.8.3.8 RSR has a number of fundamental differences straight out of the box compared to the 3.8 RS or 3.8 N-GT albeit that the RSR could be pretty much spec'ed as the customer wished. I mention this as it is not the case with the 3.6 if comparing RS to N-GT e.g. ABS system on 3.8 RSR is unique across the 964 RS family regardless of whether talking 3.6 / 3.8 or narrow-body / wide-body.
I suspect that the confusion has arisen over the time in the same way that it has or certainly used to with the 993 N-GT and more specifically the RHD version which has frequently been referred to incorrectly as an "RSR". Something in the back of mind is saying that the RHD may even have been referred to in some marketing material as an "RSR"- does this ring any bells with anybody? Again 993 RSR is a different beastie to the 993 Clubsport / N-GT.
Rich. 964 RS CS is M003....
Widebody 3.8 racecar is RSR,,,don't forget or get confused with the 964 Rs 3.8 which was the wide bodied road car and 7 widebodied 3.8 RS CS (again road cars).
My understanding of the CS/RSR confusion seems to relate to the 993 versions.
The 964 RS CS was pre 968 CS in the UK.
When the 993 RS CS came along, I am led to believe it was referrred to in the UK as the RSR, the reason being it was a £70k car and the dealer wanted to distance it from the £30k 968CS.
Of course the 993 RS CS is not a true 993 RSR, as this was again a more extreme narrow bodied race car with Gt2 style arch extenders than the regular narrow bodied 993 cup.
So to recap, I think the 993 RS CS /RSR dealer led confusion has since been applied (incorrectly) to 964 & 993 M003 versions over the last few years, no doubt led by supposed forum expertise. []
Don't worry someone will be along in a minute to say the above is total b%*&ox!
Widebody 3.8 racecar is RSR,,,don't forget or get confused with the 964 Rs 3.8 which was the wide bodied road car and 7 widebodied 3.8 RS CS (again road cars).
My understanding of the CS/RSR confusion seems to relate to the 993 versions.
The 964 RS CS was pre 968 CS in the UK.
When the 993 RS CS came along, I am led to believe it was referrred to in the UK as the RSR, the reason being it was a £70k car and the dealer wanted to distance it from the £30k 968CS.
Of course the 993 RS CS is not a true 993 RSR, as this was again a more extreme narrow bodied race car with Gt2 style arch extenders than the regular narrow bodied 993 cup.
So to recap, I think the 993 RS CS /RSR dealer led confusion has since been applied (incorrectly) to 964 & 993 M003 versions over the last few years, no doubt led by supposed forum expertise. [
]Don't worry someone will be along in a minute to say the above is total b%*&ox!
great minds think alike Paul and will likely get shot down in flames alike Paul....[]
]ORIGINAL: clubsport
Rich. 964 RS CS is M003....
Widebody 3.8 racecar is RSR,,,don't forget or get confused with the 964 Rs 3.8 which was the wide bodied road car and 7 widebodied 3.8 RS CS (again road cars).
My understanding of the CS/RSR confusion seems to relate to the 993 versions.
The 964 RS CS was pre 968 CS in the UK.
When the 993 RS CS came along, I am led to believe it was referrred to in the UK as the RSR, the reason being it was a £70k car and the dealer wanted to distance it from the £30k 968CS.
Of course the 993 RS CS is not a true 993 RSR, as this was again a more extreme narrow bodied race car with Gt2 style arch extenders than the regular narrow bodied 993 cup.
So to recap, I think the 993 RS CS /RSR dealer led confusion has since been applied (incorrectly) to 964 & 993 M003 versions over the last few years, no doubt led by supposed forum expertise. [
Don't worry someone will be along in a minute to say the above is total b%*&ox!
jason
New member
ORIGINAL: RSGulp
I think if Jason has the real story he needs to step up to the mark and tell us. [
Damn, see the two posts above already!
Starkey certainly never refers to the 'clubsport' as an RSR and points out the differences between them basically saying the clubsport was a more expensive standard RS but with full rollcage, fire extinguisher, different brake pads, clutch and belts...
RSR was the designation given to the factory's race cars (to enter worldwide GT racing classes) whereas the Cup car was purely built for the Carrera Cup series and the 'club sport' has always been a variation of a road version I believe.
I have a feeling that the shell on a 964RSR/964 Cup is also different to the other road going version shells (including the clubsport/N-GT or whatever we are calling it this week) but i'm not 100% certain why i think that.....lack of food, brain tired.....goes off for his tea...[
]Please note I could be completely wrong about all the above and am usually[
]
This is what I love about these cars. Collectively we all know so much - or do we really?
Would be great to find some Deutsch bloke who worked at the factory in 1991-1993 who remembers exactly what they were doing at the time. Paul H's recent post about the factory re-stamping numbers on replacement shells sums it all up. Seems Porsche just did what they felt right at the time, but didn't document much/any of it. Which leaves us with a big RS shaped jigsaw to play with 18 years on. [
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