964 RS Values Again!

[h_____]

ORIGINAL: George Elliott

Super Cars are vile, there is no pleasure in driving most of them. A good VW Golf would run rings round most of them on a wet twisty road.

Humm, I'm not so sure. The old school lambos may have been like that but not the modern cars, And I think many of them demand a lot of the driver, So whilst most of us couldnt hussle a carrera GT as quickly as a front wheel drive gold on a wet B road. Those wtih talent surely can. Plus, I think some of them are sublime.

George you raise some other interesting points, about low volume focussed cars. Porsche did the boxster spyder - I think that is close, although could have done with a few more tweeks. Plus lots of other companies have tried damned hard to get close. Lotus, did some pretty cool cars, Ginetta has done the GT race car trick really well. Caterham are masters at selling the same product with a little more power and grip. Even Toyota have done the GT86 (and subaru) of course. All aimed at balancing grip / and power. The look at what Renault have done with the clio and the megane. They made some truly mad road cars suitable for clubman racing. Even BMW have the MINI Cup, which is easy to get road legal.

Those cars are out there - you just dont get the porsche badge. The big challenge with Porsche has to be VW, why would you put a porsche badge on a car that another brand can cover nicely.

Whilst we are all praising the 964 (and I love my RS), it feels very accomplished to compared to a torsion bar car. I still think that the rawer drive of early cars is more appealing. Plus when the 996 came out I thought porsche had gone soft, then they did the RS, I didnt like the wet cars, and the RS was very showy. 10 years down the line, they look epic, and madly desire one. Porsche continue to do special cars, we dont always see it at the time.

Finally, there's a great quote in an article in petrolicious this week about a chap that drives an early 911T daily "any car I can drive and use a mobile phone in at the same time I dont want".

 

[Hacki]

ORIGINAL: George Elliott

simply the 911 was never meant to be a super car

Super Cars are vile, there is no pleasure in driving most of them. A good VW Golf would run rings round most of them on a wet twisty road.

What has happened, and it's disappointed a few of us who genuinely appreciated the 911 sports-car (and its epitome, the 964 RS variants) - as per kasbridge quest over the years, is that the product has become commercialised, compromised and irretrievably lost to a bunch of suits who don't understand the original 911 product.

The car has lost the simple form follows function design, endurance proven engineering, German Craft skill build quality, quirky "this is how Porsche do it" features, and its evolving its way to being a Porsche 3 series Coupe. Until type 997, when Autocar road-tested a new 911 I would have gone out of my way to get a copy, but recently I would not read it if it was delivered to me. (There is nothing to read, I know what it will contain)

The beautiful Panel fit, paint edges, feel, smells, sounds, (cooling fan, diff, wind noise) details (rev counter, floor hinged pedals, quarter lights, fuel flap cable, Recaro Seats, Fuchs Rims, Mahle engine parts), engineering (dry sump, brakes, LSD, Seam welding, Magnesium components) 100k 'ability, have been replaced by a load of contrived Bling, which we are meant to swallow with images of 917's and 956 endurance racing success stories from the Propaganda Dept, all wrapped up and presented by a sales network with Customer Care skills that Ryan Air would wince at.

Some-one in Stuttgart needs to design a simple, low volume, rear engined, air-cooled, light-weight, 6 cylinder, 2.5 litre, 5 speed, LSD, 2wd, Brembo'd, Fuch'd, Clubman focussed sports car, built without compromise, finished without compromise, and Supplied with genuine Customer Care. Run in a Series such as turbo Cup / Carrera Cup, and call it the 911 Carrera.

I personally don't think Porsche have the people any more, but the good news is Ron Dennis Organisation at McLaren is evolving this way.....

In the mean time, good examples of the epitome of 911 will increase in value like Art, because they really are the pinnacle of something really special which looks to be lost for ever from Stuttgart. Are there any Porsche family there these days?

Couldn´t have been said in better words! 100% agreed.

The cars we love had their time - if Porsche had kept on building them like that, Porsche would be broke for more than 20 years now. The market wanted these new "Porsches". Our cars will never come back, let´s keep and drive them.

Also, we´ve lost the roads to use the fine real 911s, traffic and speed traps all over the place.

Ref. Propaganda Dept.: We have been good at that always, haven´t we?

 

[oldtimer]

The old threads are the best !

What I like best about this one is that Kevin , who started it , has now finally completed his quest in spite of the massive inflation in price of the object of his desire . I look forward to hearing more about your new car Kevin []

Next up , you have to hand it to Des that he has successfully either talked the market up singlehanded , or got the crystal ball working on the niche subject of 964RS values. OK he has pointed this out already in case we missed it []

Then I really enjoyed reading George's flow of consciousness on the devolution of the 911 to meet changing market needs. You could become a motoring journo George if you put your mind to it , meantime keep posting !

The big inflation in classic air-cooled values since say 2007 has driven me in the direction of owning 'poor mans equivalents' []

I once had a 997C2S as every day car , sold it in 2008 and bought a 'poor mans 2.7RST' based on a '69 911E with '72 2.4S heart. After tracking it at Oulton , Castle Combe and Bedford , I found the best circuit to exploit its driveability - 210hp +1000kg+non-servo brakes + narrow section tyres - was Goodwood , so joined Goodwood Road Race Club and discovered the joy of going on track in the company of classic Ferraris , Jags , Astons , Abarths and the odd early 911. NB A real 2.7RST is not a comfortable seat to be in when track insurance excess is 10% of cars value.

I also once had a 964RS , a low kilometre ( 28k ) LHD carpet , which in my hands became a track hack heading for 100k kilometres. Great for learning to drive quick enough to enjoy , and again a lot of the fun was being on track with other cars of similar type . I also learned that the humble 964C2 , unloved by most , could be transformed into......'a poor mans 964RS' []
So the 964RS went , dont think it has even been used by current owner, to be replaced by a non-valuable toy that could be enjoyed more ( by me ) in doing what the 964RS was designed to do....


Anyway , getting back on topic with values , I recently reversed my previous strategy and paid 'rich mans toy' money on a 356C for which track excess will not apply and the only scary bit was the previous cost of restoration by one of the experts.

 

[PhilRS]

This is so true that I have stopped bothering. I now drive a barge on the road and have a race car for the track.

I fail to see the point of driving a modern accomplished car with near 500bhp on an open road.

ORIGINAL: Hacki

Also, we´ve lost the roads to use the fine real 911s, traffic and speed traps all over the place.

 

[kasbridge]

ORIGINAL: oldtimer

The old threads are the best !

What I like best about this one is that Kevin , who started it , has now finally completed his quest in spite of the massive inflation in price of the object of his desire . I look forward to hearing more about your new car Kevin []

EDIT

Anyway , getting back on topic with values , I recently reversed my previous strategy and paid 'rich mans toy' money on a 356C for which track excess will not apply and the only scary bit was the previous cost of restoration by one of the experts.

John,
Fascinating journey and influenced by my finally realising that I am not comfortable driving hard on the public roads any more, I blame having kids for that one.

Finally managed to find what I was after - 964RS N/GT, 2 owners, std M003 spec, colour - is described by my wife as Pink []

Looking forward to seeing the 356, I guess it will live in southern climes so may have to detour on one of my jaunts to your secret lockup []

See you on the 16th (eve)

Cheers,
kevin

 

[h_____]

Kevin - pictures required!!!!!!



well done - glad you found one.

 

[kasbridge]

Will post pics as soon as it hits our shores......

 

[carreraboy]

ORIGINAL: George Elliott

simply the 911 was never meant to be a super car

Super Cars are vile, there is no pleasure in driving most of them. A good VW Golf would run rings round most of them on a wet twisty road.

What has happened, and it's disappointed a few of us who genuinely appreciated the 911 sports-car (and its epitome, the 964 RS variants) - as per kasbridge quest over the years, is that the product has become commercialised, compromised and irretrievably lost to a bunch of suits who don't understand the original 911 product.

The car has lost the simple form follows function design, endurance proven engineering, German Craft skill build quality, quirky "this is how Porsche do it" features, and its evolving its way to being a Porsche 3 series Coupe. Until type 997, when Autocar road-tested a new 911 I would have gone out of my way to get a copy, but recently I would not read it if it was delivered to me. (There is nothing to read, I know what it will contain)

The beautiful Panel fit, paint edges, feel, smells, sounds, (cooling fan, diff, wind noise) details (rev counter, floor hinged pedals, quarter lights, fuel flap cable, Recaro Seats, Fuchs Rims, Mahle engine parts), engineering (dry sump, brakes, LSD, Seam welding, Magnesium components) 100k 'ability, have been replaced by a load of contrived Bling, which we are meant to swallow with images of 917's and 956 endurance racing success stories from the Propaganda Dept, all wrapped up and presented by a sales network with Customer Care skills that Ryan Air would wince at.

Some-one in Stuttgart needs to design a simple, low volume, rear engined, air-cooled, light-weight, 6 cylinder, 2.5 litre, 5 speed, LSD, 2wd, Brembo'd, Fuch'd, Clubman focussed sports car, built without compromise, finished without compromise, and Supplied with genuine Customer Care. Run in a Series such as turbo Cup / Carrera Cup, and call it the 911 Carrera.

I personally don't think Porsche have the people any more, but the good news is Ron Dennis Organisation at McLaren is evolving this way.....

In the mean time, good examples of the epitome of 911 will increase in value like Art, because they really are the pinnacle of something really special which looks to be lost for ever from Stuttgart. Are there any Porsche family there these days?

They actually did this in 1990 with a pre 964RS built by Jurgen Barth in Customer Sport, according to Hacki these cars were sent round some OPC in Germany known as a Special Series, getting customer feedback ....

 

[Hacki]

ORIGINAL: carreraboy

They actually did this in 1990 with a pre 964RS built by Jurgen Barth in Customer Sport, according to Hacki these cars were sent round some OPC in Germany known as a Special Series, getting customer feedback ....

Actually I was offered a sort of a pre - 964 RS or early 964 RS -I think in 1991 that was- by my local OPC, which used to have a good connection with the Porsche factory.

I didn´t buy - and for many years I was right. Prices (values) dropped, in the 90s these cars (all 964 RSs) were junk and worth almost nothing. I have no idea, if the pre RS cars then were the first real RSs or a small series of Kundensport cars. Anoraks time!

 

[carreraboy]

http://jalopnik.com/the-last-real-porsh-sounds-good-for-fuckahs-who-work-ha-1570012420

Sent to me by someone who thought we were related .... []

 

[George Elliott]

on a 356C

very nice, never drove one but had great fun in its poor Wolfsburg relation.
I learned the term "sawing" (but only recognised it when I read about it later) and still cringe at the lateral g's that thing pulled on 155 65 15 ZX Michelins. I called her my 1974 1.3 Carrera

h, those cars are out there I agree, I admire Renaults sincere efforts and their results too, and I drove a GT86 in hope but found myself asking my passenger if I was dreaming as I listened to whatever was under the bonnet. It was dreadful. The throttle was connected directly to the rev counter, but not the intake / crank I promise you.

Interesting responses from a group who obviously share a passion and understand what driving a 911 once felt like.

Glad the OP has got sorted.

keep up the good work

George

 

[andrew_churcher]

ORIGINAL: oldtimer

The old threads are the best !

What I like best about this one is that Kevin , who started it , has now finally completed his quest in spite of the massive inflation in price of the object of his desire . I look forward to hearing more about your new car Kevin []

Next up , you have to hand it to Des that he has successfully either talked the market up singlehanded , or got the crystal ball working on the niche subject of 964RS values. OK he has pointed this out already in case we missed it []

Then I really enjoyed reading George's flow of consciousness on the devolution of the 911 to meet changing market needs. You could become a motoring journo George if you put your mind to it , meantime keep posting !

The big inflation in classic air-cooled values since say 2007 has driven me in the direction of owning 'poor mans equivalents' []

I once had a 997C2S as every day car , sold it in 2008 and bought a 'poor mans 2.7RST' based on a '69 911E with '72 2.4S heart. After tracking it at Oulton , Castle Combe and Bedford , I found the best circuit to exploit its driveability - 210hp +1000kg+non-servo brakes + narrow section tyres - was Goodwood , so joined Goodwood Road Race Club and discovered the joy of going on track in the company of classic Ferraris , Jags , Astons , Abarths and the odd early 911. NB A real 2.7RST is not a comfortable seat to be in when track insurance excess is 10% of cars value.

I also once had a 964RS , a low kilometre ( 28k ) LHD carpet , which in my hands became a track hack heading for 100k kilometres. Great for learning to drive quick enough to enjoy , and again a lot of the fun was being on track with other cars of similar type . I also learned that the humble 964C2 , unloved by most , could be transformed into......'a poor mans 964RS' []
So the 964RS went , dont think it has even been used by current owner, to be replaced by a non-valuable toy that could be enjoyed more ( by me ) in doing what the 964RS was designed to do....


Anyway , getting back on topic with values , I recently reversed my previous strategy and paid 'rich mans toy' money on a 356C for which track excess will not apply and the only scary bit was the previous cost of restoration by one of the experts.

Here's "a poor mans 964rs".............. [8D]

http://www.jzmporsche.com/porsche-for-sale/911/964-rs-recreation-for-sale-529

 

[carreraboy]

Very nice Andrew .... wonder was it originally Maritime, pity about sunroof, but with RS values more than double on this car, we are going to see more recreations being done a lot better.

 

[Barty964rst]

ORIGINAL: carreraboy

http://jalopnik.com/the-last-real-porsh-sounds-good-for-fuckahs-who-work-ha-1570012420

Sent to me by someone who thought we were related .... []

Des, is this you doing the voice over? Very Funny indeed!!!

 

[h_____]

ORIGINAL: andrew_churcher



Here's "a poor mans 964rs".............. [8D]

http://www.jzmporsche.com/porsche-for-sale/911/964-rs-recreation-for-sale-529

Poor! OMG that looks steep!


I get the comments on GT86, at least toyota are trying, 200bhp, little rear grip, can be entertaining.

Renault - have pushed the general consumer boundaries I do think.

The fact is that most people demand decent NVH, and want some thing with an element of practicailty, those that dont, buy atom, caterham, xbow, elise etc.....

 

[Steve Brookes]

ORIGINAL: George Elliott

h, those cars are out there I agree, I admire Renaults sincere efforts and their results too, and I drove a GT86 in hope but found myself asking my passenger if I was dreaming as I listened to whatever was under the bonnet. It was dreadful. The throttle was connected directly to the rev counter, but not the intake / crank I promise you.

Almost exactly my thoughts too! I so wanted to like it. On paper it was the ideal replacement for my current daily driver boxster but I just found it to be dull.

 

[rs phil]

Intrested to see a replica at this price,I'm sure will sell for close to asking