964 Turbo wanted

[wagonface]

I only know what the dealer told me when I viewed the car at Eclectic. It does have new one piece wheels, and a hybrid turbo, and sports suspension. The exhaust didnt sound like a sports option to me, but I am no expert. It was a weird one to drive. I also drove the 3.6L car that Paragon had recently, and the difference between the two cars was night and day. The Eclectic one is in serious need of a geo in my opinion. Regarding the price tag, if you are correct that it was previously a £22k car, I think that is a fair and reasonable price for a private sale given its condition. I have narrowed down my choice to the 2 cars below and will make a decision this week. [link=http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/919711.htm]http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/919711.htm[/link] [link=http://www.carzone.ie/search/Porsche/911/3.3-Turb/200926194429422/advert?channel=CARS]http://www.carzone.ie/search/Porsche/911/3.3-Turb/200926194429422/advert?channel=CARS[/link] For a fair comparison, you probably need to see the full interior of the blue car, as it doesnt work as well as the red one IMHO (picture attached)

 

[DuncanF]

Both look very nice. I'd go for the blue but that's just my personal colour preference - and the red one looks like it's still got the standard suspension with the higher ride height which I'd be wanting to change straight away. I also prefer the interior on the blue one but then if you substituted the dark blue leather for black you'd have the twin of my car. Ignoring any colour preferences for a moment, though, I would strongly recommend that you buy mainly on condition. There is no doubt in my mind that these are expensive cars to run - I've had mine for 9 years now and I've got a stack of receipts to prove it even though I bought it with only 26k miles on the clock. Best of luck and please let us know what you decide. Duncan

 

[wagonface]

Thanks Duncan - do you have a picture of the interior of your car? Sounds like you have black dash with marble seats, which is the most likely thing I would change the blue one to. I do intend to get a PPI and will definitely buy on condition - I guess I'm lucky that I have found two cars I really like and can choose the one in better condition. Thanks again for all the advice, Josh

 

[DuncanF]

This is the interior of mine here ...

. What I would say is that the light grey carpet is really difficult to keep clean. In fact I probably gave up on that a few years back. Edited to add - the gear lever gaitor is a replacement that was done just before I bought the car. I can see from the picture of that blue car that the gear lever leather is looking a little scruffy - I guess mine was originally the same colour and suffered the same fate so was replaced. Regards Duncan

 

[fastlane]

ORIGINAL: wagonface I only know what the dealer told me when I viewed the car at Eclectic. It does have new one piece wheels, and a hybrid turbo, and sports suspension. The exhaust didnt sound like a sports option to me, but I am no expert. It was a weird one to drive. I also drove the 3.6L car that Paragon had recently, and the difference between the two cars was night and day. The Eclectic one is in serious need of a geo in my opinion. Regarding the price tag, if you are correct that it was previously a £22k car, I think that is a fair and reasonable price for a private sale given its condition. I have narrowed down my choice to the 2 cars below and will make a decision this week. [link=http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/919711.htm]http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/919711.htm[/link] [link=http://www.carzone.ie/search/Porsche/911/3.3-Turb/200926194429422/advert?channel=CARS]http://www.carzone.ie/search/Porsche/911/3.3-Turb/200926194429422/advert?channel=CARS[/link]

Re. the Eclectic car I agree privately £22k is about right given its mileage and the fact that it hasn't had a top end (I believe) I thought I recognised the red Irish car - there are several Youtube videos staring this very car, for example: [link=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGkO-A34wwI&feature=channel_page]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGkO-A34wwI&feature=channel_page[/link]

 

[baker07]

Well spotted Tim, the red car does look in nice condition.

 

[wagonface]

That is an amazing find! Good youtube skills! I test drove the Tahoe blue car last night, and have made enquiries on the red car, so I now have a reasonable amount of info on both. I know everyone says buy on condition, which is what I want to do - to my eyes they seem to be in similar condition, but I dont know older cars well, so maybe someone on here can help point out what I should look out for and tell me if they do seem to be in similar condition? From what I can tell (before a PPI of course, which would tell loads more), the blue one has more miles & the interior is tired. Red one needs speedlines, but blue one needs aircon (same cost). Both need tyres. Both cars are similarly priced. Seeing as ai prefer the blue colour scheme, maybe that makes up for needing to refresh the interior and slightly more miles? Anyway, my comparison notes are below - any advice/help very gratefully received. Thanks, Josh PS - I have also posted this on 911uk, as thats where I started the search many months ago. Hope that doesnt annoy anyone. Blue car Year 1991 J reg Mileage 58,000 Exterior - Tahoe Blue has a real wow factor. Metallic really suits the widebody. Also an uncommon colour. - Rust: 1) small bubbles at bottom of wscreen on both sides but worse on drivers. 2) under front boot seal at top (wscreen) edge - Rear bumper hairline cracks pax side (impact?) - Driver side rear arch cracked paint at top of it - Wscreen seal not fitted perfectly top of drivers side - Wheels: some peeling/delamination around some of the bolts on 2 of the wheels Interior - Tired - Interior colour scheme works really well, no problem with dark blue dash - Steering wheel needs replacing - Lots of wear and cracks to leather drivers seat, other seats okay - Gearknob & handbrake very worn - AC controls: symbols on buttons worn off - Cluster: no peeling of warning lights - No footrest - more space for size 12 feet! - Door handles are at a funny angle? Clutch, pads & discs, tyres etc - Tyres <3mm, need replacing - new front pads & discs 500m/12mths ago - clutch new @40k miles (2001), new clutch slave in 2006 Test drive - Tramlines at times (ruts & some corners) - likely due to 18" wheels, only 3mm left on tyres and needs a geo - V responsive & fast, pulls well & smoothly Work needed - Minor service (6mths overdue) - Paint: 1) rust front boot seal, 2) both A pillars (£500+VAT, +£300 if screen breaks) 3) rear bumper crack?, 4) rear wheel arch? - Tyres £600 - Leather clean & recolour (£15 Gliptone & lots of time!) - Steering wheel £200 - Air con not working and needs to be upgraded to R134 (Alpinair estimate max cost £1k) Red car Year 1991 H reg Mileage 47,000 Exterior - Guards looks so much better in the flesh than pictures. Not as stunning as Tahoe: would give Tahoe 60 : Guards 40 on a scale of 100points - Rust: small bit by wiper stalk. Both A-pillars have been repainted (poorly - bit of overspray on rubber) - some stone chips on bonnet & rear wheel arches - new wscreen at some stage Interior - Interior colour scheme works well with the car overall. Red seat inserts are loud, but it fits the era and the car - some cracking on drivers seat bolster, but otherwise interior in very good condition - footrest (cramped pedals?) Clutch, pads & discs, tyres etc - Tyres need replacing (3yrs old, 7k miles) - 2x discs & pads @ 32k miles (unsure rear/front) - A/C condeners replaced. A/C working - n/side heat exchanger replaced - cracked manifold replaced Test drive - tbc Work needed - Major service (3mths overdue) - Paint: 1) touch up A-Pillar repair £250?, 2) rear wheel arch stone chips? - Tyres £600 - Leather clean & recolour (£15) - Speedline replicas £800

 

[wagonface]

Sometimes the decision is made for you. I had decided to go for Red as I figured it had more money spent on it over the years, and was lining up an inspection of the red irish car when I got a call from the dealer saying it sold this evening.

 

[fastlane]

Personally I would negotiate on the Tahoe Blue car as it is in a much rarer and nicer colour and this will make it more desirable in future - the difference in mileage is negligible at this age. It has been for sale for a while, so I'm sure you can get a further discount. The Speedlines will probably fetch £2k alone, so before they need refurbing (at £1.5k) sell them and replace with the Veloces and use the £1.2k difference to help sort out the air con. As you say the interior will clean up and you may have to get the driver's seat reconnolised @ c.£250. The headers may well be shot at this age and they are prohibitively expensive from Porsche, although aftermarket headers (like B&Bs) are c.£2k and give you the added benefit of more power and torque. Get a leakdown on both; 964 turbos have a habit of breaking head studs, even at low mileages, and that means a top end rebuild @ £5k+! I'd budget a major sevice on both (c.£1k) including adjusting the tappets (unless you have evidence that this has been done) as people avoid this because it is a 10 hour job. Good luck.

 

[wagonface]

Thanks.I had decided that the blue was my preferred colour but the red was probably a safer car. Good point re the speedlines. I would be happy with veloce's. When you say headers - what do you mean? (Just to I know what to look for in the history) I will see if Peter Morgan can do a leak down, but I suspect not, so might get a local indy to do the PPI. Local to Melton Mowbray/Leicester?

 

[fastlane]

ORIGINAL: wagonface Thanks.I had decided that the blue was my preferred colour but the red was probably a safer car. Good point re the speedlines. I would be happy with veloce's. When you say headers - what do you mean? (Just to I know what to look for in the history) I will see if Peter Morgan can do a leak down, but I suspect not, so might get a local indy to do the PPI. Local to Melton Mowbray/Leicester?

Sorry, the headers are the exhaust manifolds/heat exchangers. The heat exchanger box around the manifold tends to rot over time and that means ineffective heating, and also can mean fumes in the cabin. 90% of UK cars at this age will need them replacing if they haven't been done already. I have B&B headers on mine and they are very good. Re. the leakdown, ask Peter Morgan who he'd recommend. The only one I'm aware of nearby(ish) is Zentrum near Nottingham.

 

[deutschland dobson]

Pleased the search is going well! As Zeemat-turbo says, haggle and then haggle some more! Slightly off topic question...does anyone have pics of the Veloce's? Interested to see how they compare to Speedlines (are they a true replica or can you easily tell that they are one-piece?) Chris

 

[911addict]

Wagonface. These cars are very expensive to fix so get one that has been VERY well looked after. Any doubts whatsoever, walk away. Zermat (Tim) is a good friend of mine and he recently bought a second 965 (midnight blue) from another good friend of ours as a favour as he needed a quick sale. That car is in great condition and if its not sold on yet, you should get in touch with him asap.

 

[911addict]

Veloces are not easily told from originals, they look great. There are pics regularly advertised in P magazines, and on websites from various dealers, just Google. Apart from the snob value of the originals, the Veloces are cheaper, just as light, lower maintenance, better really! (I suppose that's what >10 years of progress and a free market does.)

 

[wagonface]

ORIGINAL: 911addict Wagonface. These cars are very expensive to fix so get one that has been VERY well looked after. Any doubts whatsoever, walk away. Zermat (Tim) is a good friend of mine and he recently bought a second 965 (midnight blue) from another good friend of ours as a favour as he needed a quick sale. That car is in great condition and if its not sold on yet, you should get in touch with him asap.

If I understand you correctly, do you mean Tim now has 2 of these bad boys and might have one to sell? If so, I would love to chat. Regarding condition - are you saying I should walk away due to the tired interior which might indicate a lack of care? I have gone through the history file and there is lots of info in there for the usual bits and bobs and its only ever been serviced by specialists (eg Paragon most recently). There is no engine rebuild or heat exchangers or major engine work. I had planned to get a PPI and a leak down test done and unless they reveal something terrible I would negotiate on price to take into account the tired interior.

 

[911addict]

pm me or Tim and we'll talk.

 

[Andrew M Bonner]

Here's a new one to consider Josh', Nice colour IMHO [link=http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1177510.htm]http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1177510.htm[/link]

 

[wagonface]

Thanks Andrew - I just got the alert from PH as well! Looks like a lovely well cared for car, at a sensible price for a private sale. Peter Morgan is inspecting the Tahoe blue car as we speak. Lets see what the inspection unearths, as its my favourite colour.

 

[wagonface]

Okay, just spoken to the PPI guy (John Robertson from Peter Morgan). I dont think he could have been more negative! - heat exchangers riddled with holes and need replacing - rust: in addition to heat exchangers: front A-pillars, and also under front bonnet seal near A-pillar, rear wheel arch, suspension is also rusty apparently (?) - engine oil leaks: 1) front of engine, 2) misting around timing chain covers 3) misting around rocker covers. Nothing to indicate a leak down test is needed - wheels: split rim replicas, not genuine speedline. Also thinks they are 8" front, 10" rear which he thinks is too big for the 964T - general: MOT expired april, history file suggest c.9 owners and not the 7 stated I realise this makes for pretty grim reading. I tried to pin down John on whether this means walk away at any price, or whether the car could still be interesting at a price. He leaned towards both during the 45min chat! But as I say I dont think he could have been more cautious or negative - I guess thats his job. He reckons it requires £6k of work immediately to get it in a decent condition. The issue for me is that if most cars of this age, mileage and price would have these issues (heat exchangers, rust), then there is nothing gained by walking away, as all I will do is walk into another car that has these issues. I really wanted him to put it into context but he admitted thats almsot impossible to do. I'm obviously a bit gutted he was so negative on the car. I knew it wasnt mint, but I didnt expect such a negative report. I'm going to not think about it tonight and sleep on it. Any thoughts? Anyone else had a really negative chat with a PPI guy and still bought a car and been happy? Josh

 

[Dave Wilkinson]

Josh, Your post so much reminded me of my experience in getting Adrian Crawford to look at my prospective purchase some 5 and a half years ago!! I guess the reality is that anyone performing an inspection on behalf of a prospective purchaser HAS to be as realistic as possible - the transition from dirt to gloss has got to be your right to assume rather than his. The advantage of having his assessment is that you can use is as a very effective bargaining tool to get many, if not all, of the issues sorted or some price adjustment to compensate. As I've mentioned in previous posts, the heat exchanger issue was sort of expected given the previous "intelligence" and is probably the most expensive to sort given the remaining issues. Bits of rust just have to be expected on 964s of this age but it's unlikley to be massively serious - and, as you say, the chances are you'll find similar issues on most bar the fastidiously maintained cars. One thing to keep in mind is that Tahoe Turbos don't come along every day - and you're not going to turn a Guards Red one into Tahoe without spending a lot more money that it's going to take to shine this grubby lantern!! I was ultimately pleased that I heeded Adrian's warnings on my car, but, nevertheless, ignored him. The car I found was the car I WANTED - and I wasn't going to let a dismal inspection turn me off of it!! I'm just glad I knew what I was letting myself into!! You KNOW what you want to do!! Go for it!! Edited to add: I can't understand the comments about the wheels. The 8" and 10" wheels are pretty standard after market sizes for both n/a and Turbo 964s. It's just that they are a little bigger than the standard wheels although the same size as the Speedlines fitted to the 3.6 Turbos. Perhaps he was just making the reference to the advice from Porsche that 18" wheels are not approved for any cars not available from the factory with them! Regards Dave