964 Turbo wanted

wagonface · Aug 6, 2009

Thanks Dave - I agree with you about the inspector having to be 'realistic'. To be honest, I'm amazed the guy I spoke to even leaves the house each day - he was that negative. I have spoken to GT-One about the major items for repair/renewal (heat exchangers, a-pillar rust, oil leaks, interior). They said that none of these are critical or urgent (apart from rust), but they made the point very strongly that a car with these issues has not been meticulously cared for (actually he first said the car must have fake mileage!). And they are right about the lack of pampering. The history file shows this car has been serviced and has had brakes etc changed, but nothing else. ie the bare minimum. The tahoe blue dealer wont budge on price. So, do I want a car in a colour I really really love (Tahoe blue), but which needs c.Â£7.5k of work to get it up to scratch cosmetically and under the bonnet (why would you own a tatty 964Turbo?). Or do I buy a higher mileage (98k) car in a colour I love (Red), which shows it has been pampered, and which the servicing garage (Ray Northway) confirmed is in good condition, and which is the same price as the tahoe blue one? TBH - every forum advises to buy on condition. Whats happening here is that my heart is telling me to go with the poor condition car. Bad move Josh, bad move... PS - If anyone else wants the Tahoe blue car (@ Zero-one motors, reg J456 DYP), then pm me about the PPI

deutschland dobson · Aug 6, 2009

Not good news bud Its a real shame that the garage wont drop the price or agree to fix the problems in light of the PPI results.

If it was me I would get a PPI on the Guards Red turbo that you have seen and go from there. Im sure the Tahoe Blue one will still be around. At least them you can compare two PPI results and negotiate / go for the best car. It'll cost a few quid for the second PPI, but could be worth it in the long run

Chris

Dave Wilkinson · Aug 6, 2009

I think everyone has concluded that the Tahoe car isn't worth the asking price, so if the dealer won't budge on price I guess he's got it for a few more months in stock. Didn't you say the dealer had it on Sale or Return?? If so the owner might have a different view. Perhaps it might make the dealer a bit more realistic if he were aware of the forum traffic relating to the car!! Regards Dave

Steve Brookes · Aug 6, 2009

My take on having a PPI is that it is there mainly to tell you if you should NOT buy the car because they have found a major problem e.g. undeclared heavy accident damage. As I understand it the PPI hasn't told you not to buy it but has made you aware that significant money needs to be spent to bring up to standard. If you want to buy a car that you can drive out of the box now and spend money on later....this doesn't sound like the one IMO.

Mike Pink · Aug 6, 2009

ORIGINAL: Dave Wilkinson Edited to add: I can't understand the comments about the wheels. The 8" and 10" wheels are pretty standard after market sizes for both n/a and Turbo 964s. It's just that they are a little bigger than the standard wheels although the same size as the Speedlines fitted to the 3.6 Turbos. Perhaps he was just making the reference to the advice from Porsche that 18" wheels are not approved for any cars not available from the factory with them! Regards Dave

Dave When I looked at the aftermarket Speedline replicas as a 'winter wheel' for my 3.6, I noted that the offsets were always wrong - so that may mean the 8's and 10's don't fit properly??

Dave Wilkinson · Aug 6, 2009

Mike, I take your point but the comment about being "too big" doesn't sound like an offset issue. Interestingly the Veloce wheels seem only to be offered in 8"/ET52 and 9.5"/ET47 sizes which would make them OK for the rear of a 3.3 Turbo - it's only the 3.6 Turbo that uses the ET61 rear wheels. The standard 9.5J 17" wheels on the 3.3 were ET68 but used a spacer as standard. I was a bit confused about the inspectors description anyway as it seems he wasn't too sure of the size of the wheels anyway. If they ARE monopiece wheels they probably aren't 10J. Only the pukka Speedlines (off the 3.6) came in that size AFAIK. Regards Dave

wagonface · Aug 6, 2009

I dont want you guys thinking the inspector didnt know his stuff, so here's what he said to me: - he wasnt sure if 8" & 10" wheels are suitable for the 3.3L car and wanted to confirm that when he got home (I spoke to him on site) - he followed that by wondering out loud if the offsets were incorrect, as he thought that the 18" wheels in combination with lowered suspension (that he said was adjustable on this particular car) has resulted in the wheels possibly rubbing the rear arches. But again he said hat was only a possibility, he couldnt confirm they had definitely rubbed or not (?!). He finished this comment to me saying "maybe 8&10 is okay but the offsets arent right?" - he concluded that they are genuine split rims, but were not supplied with the car originally (hence do not have the 'speedline for porsche' etched into them) To be honest, after he had gone on about the rusty heat exchangers and the A-pillar for 40minutes I had almost lost the will...

Dave Wilkinson · Aug 6, 2009

Josh, If they ARE genuine Speedlines it's likely that they have just been refurbished and quite often the original etching is polished out in the refurbishing process. I know Mike Pink had investigated exactly this with the wheels from his 3.6 Turbo and there were not many people willing or able to reinstate the etching. If this is the case then it's almost certain that the offsets would be wrong since the wheels are likely to be ET61 on the rear - fine for a 3.6 but not for the 3.3. It would need some spacers to make it right. I often wonder what the final outcome of situations like this will be. If the dealer won't budge on the pricing he'll either wait for some mug to come along who knows no better or he'll hang on the car for a few months and THEN lower the price just to shift it. It depends how he wants to hedge his bets I guess!! Dave

wagonface · Aug 6, 2009

I agree Dave - he's had the car for over 6mths now! Its always been on for Â£25,995. He has offered it to me for Â£24,250 which includes a reduction for the rust. How much more do you think I should ask for, given the heat exchangers and oil leaks, which have been made known to me and the dealer after the PPI? Maybe I'm being too generous, but he cant simply keep knocking chunks off - I guess I'm wondering what price is fair for the car - Â£24,250? Â£23k? Â£22k? GT-One suggested c.Â£21k but I think thats a tad low. I am seeing this car tonight: [link=http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1177510.htm]http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1177510.htm[/link] If I like it then I need to make a decision tonight or tomorrow morning.

Dave Wilkinson · Aug 6, 2009

Josh, At least that's close of a Â£2K reduction so he's showing willing at least!! I'd still be talking to him if it were me. A couple of things on the ad for the red one caught my eye which might imply the seller has a less than perfect knowledge about the car. The mention of "Speedline for Porsche" decals worries me - since they are not decals on the original wheels, they are etched into the metal. Also he says "fitted with tear drop mirrors" when, of course, the Turbos all had tear drop mirrors from the factory. He also calls it a "Turbo 2" which we know is wrong as well. OK - maybe I'm being picky, but the rebuild was done very early in it's life and it's almost done as much mileage as the Tahoe car since the rebuild. As we've already seen from the Tahoe car, all is not always what it seems. Best of luck. Regards Dave

harry · Aug 6, 2009

Are you going to drive daily or on the weekends only? If the latter have you thought of a LHD? You may be able to buy a lower mileage better condition car for the price you are looking at. The 3.3 964Turbo I set my heart on sold very quickly (was 20K at the time with 18000 miles If I remember correctly - but that was 2003!). I bought a 993RS instead in LHD.

wagonface · Aug 7, 2009

Well the red car was very interesting. Chalk and cheese in many ways compared to the tahoe car. Externally its similar - tiny bit of rust at bottom of 1 a-pillar and even tiny-er bit at bottom of rear screen. But from there on its different. Its basically been loved. Discs, pads & clutch are 9k miles old, wheels are split rims made by speedline (but bought aftermarket, hence no etching) and were refurb'd 3 weeks ago, tyres are brand new, interior is in very good condition for the age. But its the history file that really sets it apart. Current owner has had it for 9yrs. He had a top-end done by Tech9 42k miles ago to rectify some small oil leaks, but also because he could (he also owned a 993 clubsport at the time so he had something else to drive, and obviously had the cash to spend pampering his cars). Over the years he has spent money fixing everything that needed it - its basically what you might expect for a 964T, a well maintained and cherished car with invoices to back it up. The power upgrade that was done before his time has made the car very fast but also smoother than the other 3.3's I have tested (over 500bhp recorded, but that was unstable so they took it down, 450bhp dyno in the file, and once more tuned down to 370bhp, also dyno'd). Yes its 94k miles, but the condition is better than the 54k mile Tahoe car. Subject to PPI (again!) its mine [

] If I get it, I intend to sell the speedlines (with their brand new tyres) and use the cash to get some anodised one piece replicas (if they exist?) and also sell the GT2 spoiler to get a standard whale tail. Fingers crossed PPI checks out.

deutschland dobson · Aug 7, 2009

Now that sounds like a better car! Good luck with the PPI and keep us posted guv

Oh, and Guards Red is the fastest colour, lol! Chris

fastlane · Aug 7, 2009

Hi Josh, I think you were right to walk away from the Tahoe Blue car at that price - these cars can be moneypits if not looked after! The red car looks like a good bet, but I'm surprised they ever reached 500bhp without blowing it up! The standard fuel injection system on the 3.3 is very old tech and cannot supply enough fuel to support more than c.400bhp without risking melt down. It sounds like they realised this and so set it up at c.370bhp, which is fine. In the old days tuners got around this by fitting a so called "seventh injector" to enrich the car at high revs, but this is notoriously hit and miss (not too mention ruining already poor fuel consumption) and many cars have gone pop whilst relying on these sytems. The only safe way to 400bhp+ is by fitting a modern EFI kit. There is lots of info regarding this whole topic on Rennlist. Good idea about the Speedlines but don't expect any wheel to stay pristine in this country! BTW, there is standard 964 turbo whaletail on eBay at present with a Buy it Now or Best Over of Â£350: [link=http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/PORSCHE-911-964-965-TURBO-REAR-SPOILER_W0QQitemZ310159360343QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item4836f04157&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14]http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/PORSCHE-911-964-965-TURBO-REAR-SPOILER_W0QQitemZ310159360343QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item4836f04157&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14[/link] Let us know how you get on. Cheers, Tim.

fastlane · Aug 7, 2009

ORIGINAL: Dave Wilkinson Josh, If this is the case then it's almost certain that the offsets would be wrong since the wheels are likely to be ET61 on the rear - fine for a 3.6 but not for the 3.3. It would need some spacers to make it right.

Dave, as far as I know the 10" ET61 Speedlines will fit fine on the back of a 3.3 turbo - lots of people have done this.

DuncanF · Aug 8, 2009

The standard 9.5J 17" wheels on the 3.3 were ET68 but used a spacer as standard.

The standard rear wheels on a 3.3 are 9J with a 55mm offset. No spacer. Just my personal opinion but buying an old car like a 964 T sounds very much like buying an old house. You get the survey done and there's always work that's highlighted. The surveyor needs to cover himself so lists everything. You just need to determine how much of it really needs doing straight away and budget accordingly. Some of it could go on for years. I wouldn't necessarily be put off by the PPI on the blue car as I don't think we've got enough information here to work out how serious the issues are and whether the work needs doing straight away. I guess it depends on your approach though - mine's not a "garage queen" so my focus is always on fixing things that make it drive and handle properly - the cosmetics come second. I'll get round to it eventually though. 24k from a dealer doesn't seem like a bad price to me even with the faults but then I think you're going to have to be very lucky to find something at that price that doesn't need work. Duncan

Dave Wilkinson · Aug 8, 2009

ORIGINAL: DuncanF

The standard 9.5J 17" wheels on the 3.3 were ET68 but used a spacer as standard.

Click to expand...

The standard rear wheels on a 3.3 are 9J with a 55mm offset. No spacer. Duncan

Yes, I had a quick e-mail conversation with Tim about this - which he also confirms - but PET also shows the 9.5J ET68 wheels as applying to the Turbo and Turbo-look cars as well as the 9J ET55 wheels. Does anyone have any idea under what circumstances the 9.5J wheels were fitted?? It seems from the few responses thus far that nobody has the 9.5J wheels (Part no: 965.362.128.05 for confirmation). Apologies to Josh for hijacking the thread!! Regards Dave

nick3814 · Aug 13, 2009

Hi Josh, I've been following your thread with interest as I hope to be in the market for a turbo myself in a couple of years. I notice the red one on Pistonheads is now shown as **SOLD** did the PPI turn out ok, tell us what its like to finally own one of these awesome Porsches [

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wagonface · Aug 14, 2009

I just drove home in my new car: [link=http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1177510.htm]http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1177510.htm[/link] . Absolutely chuffed to bits. Thank you so much to everyone who helped along the way - very very much appreciated. Off for a long weekend away now, involving a hell of a lot of driving.

Josh