spyderwhite
Member
that front end is just not doing it for me it looks a mess!goes with the horrible looking rear end of the 981 which I never have got to like.
981 Boxster & 987 Spyder comparision.
- Thread starter fbr
- Start date
Will be interesting to see which bits of the front are colour coded and which are dark plastic. Would make a huge difference in appearance which is possibly mitigated by the black paint of the test car?
fbr
New member
ORIGINAL: flat6
In those bitterly cold looking weather conditions FBR, you might actually get more grip with the suspension set softer, allowing the tyres to bite a bit more independently from the body's movement fighting against them. But maybe the new PASM has that covered too[]
Promise that I tried both settings! I've not noticed the body shell flexing, it appears to be quite rigid and the suspension seems to do all the work of coping with variations in the road surface. In the conditions illustrated, to use the old fashioned term, it's just "planted".
What is remarkable is that the suspension doesn't have a "softer" setting, the ride seems to be compliant but unyielding at the same time, without compromising the outstanding level of feedback. I can't see how this has been achieved. "Running silent", in fresh snow, is an experience not be missed (provided you're not running on 20" P-Zeros).
Flat6, whilst lurking on the Spyder thread I noticed you asked : I've never thought about driving a 356. What are they like to drive? The last time I drove a 356 under similar road conditions I relied on the snow banks to keep me on the not so straight & narrow. I bet they won' let you do that in the club car
.FBR
Ha ha!! I hope the club car survives people trying to drive it like a 981[]
With regards to grip and stiffness, I meant that the stiffer the car (chassis, suspension or whatever) when conditions are low grip, the wheels can more easily lose contact with the road as everything more moves together and a tyre can become unloaded. On a softer setting, the greater suspension travel allows the wheels to stay in contact with the road easier. You give away some 'roll' but the tyres are less likely to become unloaded (you see a slow-mo in Harris' video where he unloaded the front right tyre until it is clear of the ground but in the dry, the 3 remaining tyres have enough grip. In the wet, you'd rather keep all 4 tyres in contact with the road). So the fact that the 981 chassis is very stiff adds to what I was saying. However, in reality, as you have tried it and the car copes with it no problem, no doubt actively adjusting the damping so that there is no problem. I think 987 PASM would of course react, hence the name 'active', but nature of its Sport damping setting would more likely get you into trouble in the first place in the wet.
In dry, high grip conditions, yes, the stiffer the better to transfer maximum load to the whichever tyre has the grip and you're less concerned about an unloaded tyre as the remaining tyres have enough grip to cope.
Do you have the 2.7 or 3.4?
]With regards to grip and stiffness, I meant that the stiffer the car (chassis, suspension or whatever) when conditions are low grip, the wheels can more easily lose contact with the road as everything more moves together and a tyre can become unloaded. On a softer setting, the greater suspension travel allows the wheels to stay in contact with the road easier. You give away some 'roll' but the tyres are less likely to become unloaded (you see a slow-mo in Harris' video where he unloaded the front right tyre until it is clear of the ground but in the dry, the 3 remaining tyres have enough grip. In the wet, you'd rather keep all 4 tyres in contact with the road). So the fact that the 981 chassis is very stiff adds to what I was saying. However, in reality, as you have tried it and the car copes with it no problem, no doubt actively adjusting the damping so that there is no problem. I think 987 PASM would of course react, hence the name 'active', but nature of its Sport damping setting would more likely get you into trouble in the first place in the wet.
In dry, high grip conditions, yes, the stiffer the better to transfer maximum load to the whichever tyre has the grip and you're less concerned about an unloaded tyre as the remaining tyres have enough grip to cope.
Do you have the 2.7 or 3.4?
fbr
New member
Mr Harris is very entertaining, I'm afraid in comparison I'm merely an interested pedestrian. I wouldn't dream of trying to unload any of the wheels on a 981 under any conditions. My non expert impressions of driving a 981 at Silverstone PEC were that it far exceeds the capacity of anything I would remotely want to utilise on the public roads.
I do appreciate your point about the suspension travel and maintaining surface contact. I don't really understand the complexities of the overlapping dynamic properties of PASM for each of the normal (softer) and sport (harder) settings but I've not noticed any limitations with the sport setting for normal driving under conditions of low grip. Maybe I should revisit the PEC and explore the possibilities. I suspect I would get more out it having lived with car for just over a year. It took me two shots down the "ice" hill before I could overcome my inhibitions and induce a spin (the high friction lateral spin off areas act a little like a snow bank).
Thanks for you thought provoking post. It's a 3.4, obviously with PASM, plus PSV & the dreaded PDK.
FBR
PS I know that the 981 drives like a bus, but that should read PTV not PSV
PPS On mature reflection maybe that should read - I know that I drive a 981 like a bus..
Oh I forgot to add, the reason I asked if you had a 2.7 or 3.4 was because when i've tested the 2.7 it felt underpowered for my tastes but more importantly, foot to the floor it couldn't unsettle the chassis except I expect with some serious provocation and a slippery surface (which is a good thing). I did test a 3.4 but the conditions were too bad for me to want to explore it. Your indications are positive.
fbr
New member
It is quite difficult to unsettle a 981. I've not noticed the "axle tramping" that surprised me in a 987S. This seemed to occur in low gears with high throttle input on tight ascents. I assume that the gear ratio was too low to cope with the torque. I'm not an expert so maybe someone else could explain?
FBR
PS the 987 was a manual gearbox.
FBR
PS the 987 was a manual gearbox.
fbr
New member
Thanks Daro911, I didn't realise it was so common. The phenomenon not only surprised me but transported me back more years than I care to admit. I suppose "hopping" is a better description, unless of course the 987 series really do have live axles and cart springing .
Since this is a 981/Spyder comparison thread, do you get it the the Spyder ? Anyone induced it in a manual gearbox 981?
FBR
.Since this is a 981/Spyder comparison thread, do you get it the the Spyder ? Anyone induced it in a manual gearbox 981?
FBR
not in normal driving, but if you drop the clutch under load of course and want to turn sharp out of an exit with some tail happy fun, then yes both my Spyder and R can wheel hop.
At speed they don't do it so drifting is ok or powering off a round about again ok.
I am fitting some solid rear toe links to one of my cars, wonder if that might stop it, as it might be caused by play under load on the bushes.
The point is I don't drive like that so don't see it 99.9% of the time, I just know it does it when I have tried, so I just don't try now.
newer tyres seem to also cure it (so people have said) , maybe because the blocks on the tyres has a bit of movement enough to stop the wheel hop.
At speed they don't do it so drifting is ok or powering off a round about again ok.
I am fitting some solid rear toe links to one of my cars, wonder if that might stop it, as it might be caused by play under load on the bushes.
The point is I don't drive like that so don't see it 99.9% of the time, I just know it does it when I have tried, so I just don't try now.
newer tyres seem to also cure it (so people have said) , maybe because the blocks on the tyres has a bit of movement enough to stop the wheel hop.
Yeah i'd agree with the above. I've only experienced with trying a quick getaway in very cold conditions that don't suit summer tyres. More with my gen 1 Cayman. Can't recall when last i've had it in the Spyder,if ever, but then like MrD I drive to avoid losing traction when I expect there's a high probability of losing traction.
There's less weight over the rear wheels than in a 911 - that's the 911's strength, to keep those driven rear wheels pressed into the tarmac[]. Porsche then dialled out the pendulum effect of the rear mounted engine more than anyone could ever imagine. But if you do lose traction, the mid-engined balance is more neutral than the pendulum that reappears once traction is lost. Horses for courses.
There's less weight over the rear wheels than in a 911 - that's the 911's strength, to keep those driven rear wheels pressed into the tarmac[
]. Porsche then dialled out the pendulum effect of the rear mounted engine more than anyone could ever imagine. But if you do lose traction, the mid-engined balance is more neutral than the pendulum that reappears once traction is lost. Horses for courses.
fbr
New member
Thanks Mr D & Flat6. I was testing a Cayman Black edition with the added weight of passenger. The nice Porsche gentleman said give it a good "work out" so it seemed rude not to oblige. The tyres were warm, surface dry, uphill with tight turns and the nice gentleman was sick.
FBR
PS As in Parrot. Does that mean that because the 981 is a development of the 987 its been "dialled out" of the setup or am I not trying hard enough?
FBR
PS As in Parrot. Does that mean that because the 981 is a development of the 987 its been "dialled out" of the setup or am I not trying hard enough?
It's progress Frank and to be precise the 981 is a whole new car rather than a development, giving even more scope to improve on anything they wanted to over the 987. Lots of things will have changed including the wheelbase and other dimensions and components that influence how the car behaves. The stability systems will have improved and will be way ahead of what's going on and 'deal' with it before it gets out of hand. Does it take away the fun of driving? Well, depends what fun is. There was a motoring journo that said that all the tyre smoking exploits in reviews is getting a bit pointless because generally people don't want to do that with their car so what does it matter if a car does let you break the tail out. I think if you can go fast in all conditions and the car can help you stay in control, to keep going fast, then that is progress. Think of the most extreme cars like the RS models. 'They' say you need a dry day to take them out and do what they do best. If the conditions aren't right you'd better leave it at home. So on the wrong day, they might be slower[8|] Horses for courses. I think that is the attraction of say a 911 turbo vs the equivalent GT3RS. One is an all-wheel drive all-weather type of car, the other a much more involving, track master. You pick the right tool for job. But I guess newer and newer cars are blurring the line as to what they can do without compromise.
All this 981 talk made me look back at what my first impressions were. They're halfway down this page http://www.porscheclubgbforum.com/tm.asp?m=719756&mpage=26
All this 981 talk made me look back at what my first impressions were. They're halfway down this page http://www.porscheclubgbforum.com/tm.asp?m=719756&mpage=26
fbr
New member
Once again, thank you Flat6, we must stop meeting like this. Joking aside, the 987 was impressive and to be fair the nice salesperson was demonstrating, my personal bête noir of electronic driving aids, the step like engine map and throttle response function of the "Sport" button. Don't tell anybody but my pick of the 987 bunch was the Spyder, it felt more refined and less claustrophobic. The lack of practicality of its soft-top was a major downside for my pattern of use.
Your excellent write up of your initial impressions of the 981 reflect my own (why hide it on the Spyder thread?). The 981 is more subtle, the initial impression of a soft roadster is beguiling. I think that the lack of "feel" that most experience is simply the reduction in the "noise" level due to enhancements in the chassis/steering/precision/etc. On closer acquaintance I have come to appreciate that the level feedback is actually enhanced. This, as you pointed out, makes the car very relaxed and oddly the more relaxed you become the more the car offers. As I've said I can't figure out how this has been achieved but it's not by a diminution in performance and handling.
Maybe some other 981 enthusiasts have a view?
FBR
Your excellent write up of your initial impressions of the 981 reflect my own (why hide it on the Spyder thread?). The 981 is more subtle, the initial impression of a soft roadster is beguiling. I think that the lack of "feel" that most experience is simply the reduction in the "noise" level due to enhancements in the chassis/steering/precision/etc. On closer acquaintance I have come to appreciate that the level feedback is actually enhanced. This, as you pointed out, makes the car very relaxed and oddly the more relaxed you become the more the car offers. As I've said I can't figure out how this has been achieved but it's not by a diminution in performance and handling.
Maybe some other 981 enthusiasts have a view?
FBR
Keep saying that and you will believe it.
Now lets not fall out over it, as the 981 is a great car and the build on them is far higher than on the tat I own.
but that line I cannot ignore.
My friend owns a 991 which I drive and I must have had all the cars on and off for 24 hour test drive
I waited for a year on the new Cayman and was ready to buy on day 1, the feedback is NOT enhanced in any way with this new system and it has nothing to do with noise levels.
read peoples posts on Pistonheads, some owners from past sports cars even liken the new cars to driving a BMW 320 to quote
"So I'm wondering what the GTS will be like. . will Porsche have engineered out a little bit of the BMW 320d feeling and injected a little more feel and focus?"
and
"I agree totally with what you said about the latest Boxster vs. the previous one, many Porsche fans do, the same with the 997 vs 991"
"After trying several new Boxsters and 991's. I came to th conclusion that Porsche have lost me as a new car customer. "
and every review in every mag backs up what we are all saying !!!
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=231&t=1366807&i=40&mid=15789&nmt=
quite amusing what people think about the new cars, as these people have the money not because then own 987,s
So yes while the new 981 might be better built and better in many many ways, it's a step backwards for feedback and feel and for that reason I am out.
its all about co2 figures atm.
the Boxster is better than the 991, the Cayman is better than the Boxster, the 991 GT3 is better still than all 3, but STILL reviews even say less feel on the new GT3 steering, but you forget about it.
So Porsche are getting there with every model better than the last, the face lifted cars or the R versions might be just as good, lets hope so.
And that's the thing, new cars always feel great, most get great reviews, and buyers on new cars DON'T get back in hydrolic steering cars once they have bought a new car , so they get used to it.
drive your car back to back with my car, and yes while it may feel like yesteryear in mine and sparse, you would be shocked at the level of feed back going from one to the other imo.
Hi Frank
The Spyder thread was where there was the most active interest in 981 going on. We discussed it at some length and daro911 and rob.kellock also gave their impressions when they loaned one. 981 discussion elsewhere was pretty much non-existent.
Some time later I then drove a 2.7 981 Cayman but put it here http://www.porscheclubgbforum.com/tm.asp?m=719756&mpage=181 because it still was the place of most 981 interest. (We are a sub-forum really[
] )I'd also say that the feedback is not enhanced but as I said I think the new car just takes a bit of getting used to because it does go where it is told but it was harder for me to sense what I had got going on underneath me. Maybe you have tuned into the car and pick up a different type of feedback fo which i'm yet to tune into, but i'd say the difference is that one is more apparent than the other, even standard 987 suspension.
When I handed the 981 back and got back in the Spyder it was freezing. I thought i'd have to tip-toe like I had in the 981 but after a few hundred yards of steering the Spyder it was like the road had changed from wet to dry, but it was just somehow the confidence I was getting that the about how much grip I had. I wasn't looking for it, I just realised I was throwing the car about as if it was dry. No doubt the 981 had the same grip, but I didn't feel it so didn't push. It may not be the electric steering and maybe X73 might feel like the Spyder. To the other extreme, one of the mags that reviewed the 981 Cayman against the Lotus Elise and 4C said that the Elise was the most tiring to drive as it sent every little pimple on the road surface back through the steering, bombarding you with a level of vibrations that you didn't need to know about and probably made you feel like you were driving on gravel. I've no doubt the 981 has turned out exactly as Porsche has intended but I think it is directed at a wider audience, to take sales from customers at competitors such as Merc etc. who may have found a Porsche not relaxed enough. There's no less capability for those who want a Porsche to be a Porsche but I think it takes a different mindset to find it. I could easily drive a 981 from John o' Groats to Land's End without feeling tired (but wouldn't relish the idea in a 987) but I may forget along the way that the car is also good for some serious fun and just cruise GT style all the way. Maybe after living with one for a while i'd explore its sportier side more. One can only get a 'first impression' from test drives.
That's a cool pic fbr[]
I expect I will own a 981 some day. I want to scratch my 911 itch first.
Also, I have been spoilt by the Spyder. Coming from a 987S I'd be less critiquing of the 981 I think. I'm waiting for the Renn Sport division to be let loose on one. That'd fit the bill[]
Where all the 981 owners are is a mystery. Surely they're not all city bankers who don't join car clubs []
Maybe a higher percentage of Boxster club members are used car buyers and it'll pick up as the car gets older?
]I expect I will own a 981 some day. I want to scratch my 911 itch first.
Also, I have been spoilt by the Spyder. Coming from a 987S I'd be less critiquing of the 981 I think. I'm waiting for the Renn Sport division to be let loose on one. That'd fit the bill[
]Where all the 981 owners are is a mystery. Surely they're not all city bankers who don't join car clubs [
]Maybe a higher percentage of Boxster club members are used car buyers and it'll pick up as the car gets older?
I think it is the same with 991. Peter said a couple of weeks ago they had only around 50 members so it must be that Porsche are selling cars but not many new owners are joining the club, and few members are moving to newer models?
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