Are Spyders Becoming Extinct At OPCs!

[vitesse]

Surely you mean an ark-you wouldn't need an included angle then-& also you've got 2 humps,2 seats,2 wipers,2 headlamps-you get the idea,Rob.

 

[rob.kellock]

ORIGINAL: VITESSE Surely you mean an ark-

Oops, iPhone autocorrect may need re-naming [8|] Glad you keeping an eye on the proceedings anyway!

 

[flat6]

ORIGINAL: rob.kellock All this family talk and we've taken our eye off the ball... (I bet this link doesn't work because they never do but I'll try anyway): [link]http://ucl.porsche.de/ucl/plsql/uk/clients.show_car?sid_=36483126COJ6FXGOV1XFGD59TAN4VBE&pnr_=1&lnr_=1&caller_=[/link] Black Spyder, Porsche Silverstone, Manual, Ceramics and (?)turbo II wheels. £37850 but no bum warmers for John []

Silverstone must want to beat Wilmslow over the quiet Christmas period. No doubt one more will pop up when there's goes at the magical ~£38K

 

[flat6]

My Spyder needed a piece of trim replacing in the front boot. The part has arrived so I went back to my OPC on Friday. I asked for a Cayman as a loaner. Yes, they still had one on the fleet - a 2.9. I hadn’t driven a Cayman since giving mine up for the Spyder back in February so I wanted to have another go in one of my favourites (but would've preferred a 3.4). I also opted to take a test drive in a Cayman R while I was there. Could it make the perfect companion for the Spyder or, how about it replacing the Spyder, for obvious reasons. This R was a manual, with buckets seats, no Sport Chrono (SC) and no leather interior. I was expecting there to be no difference between the Spyder and R apart from the obvious reason to choose one of over other - metal roof or open top. The Cayman R is 20kg heavier but has 10 more horses. Therefore there isn’t anything between them in performance. Although, this test has the Spyder 0.6secs ahead on a number of 30+ secs laps. But could that have been down to changing track conditions? Even if one is faster than the other, whichever one it is, the more I think about it I just don't buy it - 0.6 seconds difference is massive over such a short lap. Maybe tyres had something to do with it? Anyway, the article says that the Spyder has more weight. So perhaps they don’t know how to read their stopwatch either. http://www.excellence-mag.com/issues/196/articles/open-and-shut-case-track-test#.UNTSHuRdaK4 Comparing their engines below, it’s only above 6000rpm that the Cayman R’s pulls away on the graphs. Therefore, you need to be approaching the red-line on the revs to access the extra power. (Both have the same peak torque at 4750 rpm but the R's peak power is at 7400rpm vs the Spyder's at 7200rpm, as per the Cayman S)

I set off in the Cayman R. It immediately felt more pliant. What is the difference in suspension set-up between them? Taken on less than perfect roads, the R seems to soak up the bumps better. The roof makes for a better atmosphere in the cabin, obviously. It's a lot quieter with less engine, exhaust and wind noise in the cabin, obviously. I also like that there is space behind you, which I made use of when I had the Cayman, even if just to take off and chuck a coat back there without having to leave the car. Taken down some country lanes, (but not going for it as perhaps you would unaccompanied) the R felt somehow more refined. I do like this Cayman R. Has anyone else driven both the Spyder and R? Did they ride differently to you? So, there are sufficient subtle differences (as well as the obvious one) not to make it completely nonsensical to have both cars in your stable. I'd get the R in a darker hue in the hope that it could stealthily blend in in places where I daren't park the Spyder. The R didn't have a short shifter, which made me realise that my short shifter is a bit notchy, but feels fine when you're used to nothing else. I'll take the shorter throw over the slicker standard shifter. Although, if I was owning both cars at the same time, i'd opt for the normal shifter on the R, to maintain yet more subtle difference. Maybe even take PDK on it whilst my Spyder is manual. I had heard that cars without Sport Chrono have a slightly more assertive throttle map compared to an SC car's Normal mode. Nevertheless, the throttle response was fine without SC. However, it can’t be denied that SC in Sport mode does help when driving assertively, giving you more throttle opening with less pedal travel for more instant output for your input (it doesn’t improve accelerative performance of the car, but it means you don’t have to stamp on the accelerator as much to get towards full throttle). SC should be standard on this type of car, or at least a Sport mode. (The 981 has a sport mode on non-SC cars but on a manual car the change in throttle response is very subtle, unlike the 987. In the 981 it is no doubt still doing other things, like backing off the PSM, and with PDK, changing the gear shift strategy). Leather interior should also be standard on these cars. Staring at an expanse of dull-textured plastic in a car of this stature just takes away one facet of the experience. Jumped into the loaner 2.9 987c. I also didn't have a leather interior but it can be forgiven to some extent in that car. However, my cousin who came along for the ride, who has only ever experienced my Porsches, was not impressed with the interior in the 2.9, especially after browsing the showroom in many a car that did have leather. I can actually understand the logic of getting a car with less power. You can just go for it, foot to the floor, safe in the knowledge that the car won’t bite back. You’d have to be pretty careless to unstick it. But personally, I prefer a beast to try to tame – power you need to learn how to control. Spending more time in the 2.9 I noticed the sound that the Spyder’s 'sound-proof-less' roof obscures – tyre roar . So, you do get some noise in both coupe and roadster (no doubt the roadster has tyre roar too). Also, I did get arrogantly pushed out twice when in a merging lane situation. Then I remembered when I had my Cayman. Other drivers were quite obnoxious. http://www.porscheclubgbforum.com/tm.asp?m=635256&mpage=1&key=eos򛈫 Whereas with the Spyder, I’ve never had that problem. People let you in, I guess because they want to take a good gander. (Hopefully they would also be kind to the R, but it doesn’t look vastly different to the standard Cayman, so perhaps not.) So, to the looks. One looks more unique than the other. Enough said. To conclude, which one you pick comes down to personal preference for space and coupe or open top. No revelations there then. But also, surprisingly, there was a difference in ride comfort. I’d say the Cayman R is the better option for general living with, but the Spyder has the unique look (no revelations there either), a look you'd expect to have to pay more for, but you get to pay less! Both great cars and neither is the lesser choice. Interested to hear from any Cayman R owners who have driven a Spyder or anyone who has driven both. More Spyder & R pics here. http://www.planet-9.com/987-cayman-boxster-chat/56420-cayman-r-delivered-2.html Have a good Christmas!

 

[daro911]

ORIGINAL: flat6

Have a good Christmas!

Another superb report flat6 I hope it gets into the Porsche Post as I am sure most Cayman R / Spyder owners would not have experienced the back to back drives like you just managed. Well done It's hard to pin point ride differences but it could be down to the set up on the heavier R suiting the sport chassis a little better and sometimes even down to different flavour tyres. It's a bit like the loan car or demo car always seems that much quicker than ones own example [] In the past I have read journo's saying the complete opposite i.e. Spyder is slightly better than the R[&o] Anyway to all the Spyder web followers out there "Seasons Greetings & Hopefully Dry Sunny Warm New Year [8D] [link=http://www.americangreetings.com/ecards/christmas/pn/3173936]http://www.americangreetings.com/ecards/christmas/pn/3173936[/link]

 

[flat6]

ORIGINAL: daro911

ORIGINAL: flat6

Have a good Christmas!

Another superb report flat6 I hope it gets into the Porsche Post as I am sure most Cayman R / Spyder owners would not have experienced the back to back drives like you just managed.  Well done   It's hard to pin point ride differences but it could be down to the set up on the heavier R suiting the sport chassis a little better and sometimes even down to different flavour tyres.  It's a bit like the loan car or demo car always seems that much quicker than ones own example []   In the past I have read journo's saying the complete opposite i.e. Spyder is slightly better than the R[&o] 

Thanks daro911[] Better in what sense?

 

[daro911]

ORIGINAL: flat6

ORIGINAL: daro911

ORIGINAL: flat6

Have a good Christmas!

Another superb report flat6 I hope it gets into the Porsche Post as I am sure most Cayman R / Spyder owners would not have experienced the back to back drives like you just managed. Well done It's hard to pin point ride differences but it could be down to the set up on the heavier R suiting the sport chassis a little better and sometimes even down to different flavour tyres. It's a bit like the loan car or demo car always seems that much quicker than ones own example [] In the past I have read journo's saying the complete opposite i.e. Spyder is slightly better than the R[&o]

Thanks daro911[] Better in what sense?

Better handling around a track test in good old US of A

 

[daro911]

ORIGINAL: flat6

ORIGINAL: daro911

ORIGINAL: flat6

Have a good Christmas!

In the past I have read journo's saying the complete opposite i.e. Spyder is slightly better than the R[&o]

Thanks daro911[] Better in what sense?

Found it [] [link=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YwG2wD69P4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YwG2wD69P4[/link]

 

[daro911]

ORIGINAL: flat6

flat6 as an ex Cayman S owner and after your test drive in the "R" today I thought you might enjoy this back to back test too [] [link=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mFoSpbhAOw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mFoSpbhAOw[/link]

 

[Motorhead]

ORIGINAL: flat6 Comparing the engines below, it’s only above 6000rpm that the Cayman R’s pulls away on the graphs. Therefore, you need to be approaching the red-line on the revs to access the extra power. (Both have the same peak torque at 4750 rpm but the R's peak power is at 7400rpm vs the Spyder's at 7200rpm, as per the Cayman S)

Here's what I said about about this over on the other thread Cecil: As you say, the R has slightly more power - albeit at higher revs - than the S/Spyder but they have identical torque figures. I'm sure that this is achieved by the R's revised (freer flowing?) exhaust manifold, which would tend to enhance the top end performance, and also by DME tweaks since the engine developers have so many tunableable functions which are controlled by the DME: 1) DFI - Fuel can be injected at dfferent times and in varying quantities throughout the power stroke; 2) Inlet valve timing and lift - +/- 20deg of crankshaft advance/retard in conjunction with low and high lift camshaft lobes; 3) Ignition timing; 4) Intake resonance manifold operation - to optimise induction airflow and boost mid-range torque. I suspect that Porsche have tweaked the first three to boost the R's power but have left the fourth option alone. Relatively small power gains are a regular feature of model year upgrades and are part of the normal development cycle. For example, Porsche have boosted the power of the 981 Cayman S by 5hp compared with the Gen II car. I run a Gen II Cayman with PASM (10mm lower than standard), LSD, Sport Chrono and 19" wheels and I'd be very interested to see how that would stack up against the Spyder and R on track with PASM in 'Sport' mode. The R wasn't available when I purchased my S and I've only driven an R briefly - but enthusiastically - at the PEC Silverstone, but on the road (where mine's used for 99% of the time) I reckon that the S probably has a better ride and handling compromise. And I wonder how many R owners were brave enough not to specify PASM, aircon and a radio to minimise weight? Whilst I admire your and Daro's choice of car, I have to say that in our climate it couldn't be my choice. One reason for choosing the Cayman over the Boxster was that I found the latter a bit claustrophobic with the hood up compared with the general spaciousness of the Cayman's interior; so I just can't imagine what it's like driving the Spyder with the "hood" on in addition to not even having the convenience of opening/closing it at the touch of a button. Although I like roadsters, I guess that I'm really a tin-top chap at heart.! Enjoy your cars in whatever fine weather we mange to get in 2013. Jeff

 

[flat6]

ORIGINAL: daro911

ORIGINAL: flat6

ORIGINAL: daro911

ORIGINAL: flat6

Have a good Christmas!

  In the past I have read journo's saying the complete opposite i.e. Spyder is slightly better than the R[&o] 

Thanks daro911[] Better in what sense?

Better handling around a track test in good old US of A  Found it [] [link=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YwG2wD69P4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YwG2wD69P4[/link]

Thanks daro911. That video is from the article I posted. The point I was making was not that the Spyder can't be faster (it's lower centre of gravity would show to its advantage on the tight go-kart track) but I was challenging whether the difference would be as large as 0.6s over a 30s lap. F1 cars can be closer over a longer lap. Still, the Spyder was consistently quicker over multiple laps but was just wondering if the gap was widened by a tyre issue or a changing track. I did actually think that my Spyder was quicker in a straight line but how to be sure (I didn't get to push the R in the twisties) but after 35 pages of Spyder praise[] I expected it to be taken as blinkered bias[] With less weight, equal torque, lower C of G and neglible power deficit even at higher revs, the Spyder does hold a few advantages.

 

[Dylan1]

hi jeff and happy xmas from the big apple[]having enjoyed a cayman s for a few years i can say that i find the boxster much less claustrophobic with about infinity miles of space above it!!!!!! i rarely have the roof up even in uk weather and dont find huge difference from cayman when it is up.also luggage space almost same .ideally i would love an r for track use and 981 boxster s for road use .perfect except in linda`s eyes []

 

[rob.kellock]

I once spent a memorable hour at the handling circuit of the PEC Silverstone swapping between Spyder and Cayman R, manual and PDK in each. They are definitely different. I preferred the Spyder. Fortunately...

 

[flat6]

ORIGINAL: daro911

ORIGINAL: flat6

flat6 as an ex Cayman S owner and after your test drive in the "R" today I thought you might enjoy this back to back test too [] [link=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mFoSpbhAOw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mFoSpbhAOw[/link]

Perfect!! Thanks. He's thinking that the reduced weight over the S is a significant contributing factor. So the extra reduced weight of the Spyder over the R (AND lower C of G) must give it the edge.

 

[flat6]

ORIGINAL: Motorhead

ORIGINAL: flat6 Comparing the engines below, it’s only above 6000rpm that the Cayman R’s pulls away on the graphs. Therefore, you need to be approaching the red-line on the revs to access the extra power. (Both have the same peak torque at 4750 rpm but the R's peak power is at 7400rpm vs the Spyder's at 7200rpm, as per the Cayman S)

Here's what I said about about this over on the other thread Cecil: As you say, the R has slightly more power - albeit at higher revs - than the S/Spyder but they have identical torque figures. I'm sure that this is achieved by the R's revised (freer flowing?) exhaust manifold, which would tend to enhance the top end performance, and also by DME tweaks since the engine developers have so many tunableable functions which are controlled by the DME: 1) DFI - Fuel can be injected at dfferent times and in varying quantities throughout the power stroke; 2) Inlet valve timing and lift - +/- 20deg of crankshaft advance/retard in conjunction with low and high lift camshaft lobes; 3) Ignition timing; 4) Intake resonance manifold operation - to optimise induction airflow and boost mid-range torque. I suspect that Porsche have tweaked the first three to boost the R's power but have left the fourth option alone. Relatively small power gains are a regular feature of model year upgrades and are part of the normal development cycle. For example, Porsche have boosted the power of the 981 Cayman S by 5hp compared with the Gen II car. I run a Gen II Cayman with PASM (10mm lower than standard), LSD, Sport Chrono and 19" wheels and I'd be very interested to see how that would stack up against the Spyder and R on track with PASM in 'Sport' mode. The R wasn't available when I purchased my S and I've only driven an R briefly - but enthusiastically - at the PEC Silverstone, but on the road (where mine's used for 99% of the time) I reckon that the S probably has a better ride and handling compromise. And I wonder how many R owners were brave enough not to specify PASM, aircon and a radio to minimise weight? Whilst I admire your and Daro's choice of car, I have to say that in our climate it couldn't be my choice. One reason for choosing the Cayman over the Boxster was that I found the latter a bit claustrophobic with the hood up compared with the general spaciousness of the Cayman's interior; so I just can't imagine what it's like driving the Spyder with the "hood" on in addition to not even having the convenience of opening/closing it at the touch of a button. Although I like roadsters, I guess that I'm really a tin-top chap at heart.! Enjoy your cars in whatever fine weather we mange to get in 2013. Jeff

Thanks Jeff. My gen 1 Cayman S had PASM and as you say, it's the better option for ride comfort compromise, but in Sport mode on the road it caused oscillations that the passive Spyder/R suspension doesn't, which reserves the Sport mode solely for track. (PASM is not an option on Spyder and R but they ride better than PASM Sport mode). Oh you have LSD. I do notice some going on at the back sometime when i'm on the edge, which my non LSD Cayman didn't do. Felt as if the power was going to one side then the other and the car skips and then settles, or feels like oversteer, whereas the non LSD car would have spun up it's wheels more and i'd have to back out the throttle more. I agree that the Cayman cabin is more expansive roof up. Took a while to get used to turning around to find that the cabin ends just behind the headrest. But i'd give it up for the Spyder without a 2nd thought[] Headroom isn't a problem in the Boxster roof up though. I was expecting my (crash) helmet to touch the roof in the Spyder but it didn't. So how easy do you think it would be to convert the 320 to 330hp tune? I mean what Porsche have done, not an after market alternative. Do you think an OPC could do it (if they were allowed)?

 

[flat6]

ORIGINAL: daro911

ORIGINAL: flat6 flat6 as an ex Cayman S owner and after your test drive in the "R" today I thought you might enjoy this back to back test too [] [link=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mFoSpbhAOw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mFoSpbhAOw[/link]

Cayman R vs GT3 tested pretty scientifically. 4-1 to the GT3 (GT3 on Cup tyres though but maybe wouldn't have changed the outcome?) http://www.caranddriver.com/features/the-mid-vs-rear-engine-debate-porsche-cayman-r-vs-911-gt3-feature?redirect=no

 

[flat6]

ORIGINAL: rob.kellock I once spent a memorable hour at the handling circuit of the PEC Silverstone swapping between Spyder and Cayman R, manual and PDK in each. They are definitely different. I preferred the Spyder. Fortunately...

How would you describe the difference Rob and what exactly did you prefer?

 

[rob.kellock]

I couldn't tell you! Spyder first (and I'd had mine 18 months or so already) and all was familiar. Jumped in the Cayman R expecting the same with a roof and it was... Different. Thought I was going mad, jumped back in a Spyder and normality returned. Back in another R and, yup, definitely not the same! Spyder felt a bit heavier and more planted somehow, the R was a bit more lively. Difficult to describe really.

 

[daro911]

ORIGINAL: rob.kellock I couldn't tell you! Spyder first (and I'd had mine 18 months or so already) and all was familiar. Jumped in the Cayman R expecting the same with a roof and it was... Different. Thought I was going mad, jumped back in a Spyder and normality returned. Back in another R and, yup, definitely not the same! Spyder felt a bit heavier and more planted somehow, the R was a bit more lively. Difficult to describe really.

I think this guy agrees with you too Rob [][link=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YwG2wD69P4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YwG2wD69P4[/link]

 

[rob.kellock]

Get in! I am a driving god and I claim my five pounds. He's right of course!