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August Porsche Post Editorial

Major fawning apologies Sundeep I misunderstood! I think the best way to go about an oil change at an Independent or main dealer is to ask how much it costs before hand. I do my own oil changes when convenient and if I'm going to a garage get the price of oil. I pay £3.75 a ltr for Castrol Magnatec and my sporto uses 13ltrs - torque converter - so after labour and a filter I'm looking at £100.00 unless I do it myself. For a 993 - less oil - so maybe a bit less cost but isn't it harder to change the oil on a 993?
The last dubious oil change I had was at a local Independent - no longer in business - who tried to charge me £140.00 for an oil change on an SC, he said it was a £6000 mile service even though he didn't do anything else; we had a disagreement.
 
When my 4S was serviced at the factory they said no oil change was needed (at nine months and around 5000 miles). However, by necessity I end up doing short journeys and the dealer has advised doing a change annually because of this.

I guess this is the antithesis of the track day use...

Despite what the factory said, I have now given in. [8|]
 
Back on topic for a second....(or at least the editorial comment)..

I totally agree with John here; i consigned my copy straight to the recycle bin after I read the editorial.

I guess it is a show of "impotence" from the PCGB on the official front which was a surprise to me since John and Nic (and mark) were doing a good job I thought at gathering the data for some representation... silly me...

Not going to bother with membership next year.
 
Like so many previous posters in this thread I read the Editorial in last month's Porsche Post with a mixture of anger and dismay. Anger that anyone in a position of some authority in PCGB could treat Members ...and in particular, Boxster owners, with such patronising contempt, and dismay that that such a person should know so little about the automotive engineering of Porsche cars and indeed about cars in general. What a load of drivel....and the lame excuse of wishing to provoke a response really doesn't wash!
I am seriously debating whether I wish to continue my subscription to Porsche Post and indeed my Membership of PCGB.

It will be interesting to see if this gets published on the web-site!
 
Guys,

dont give up on us, we are not New Labour, dont want alistair cambell spinning all copy and we expect to have the odd glitch here and there.
Once John drew my attention, I let Stephen know how we felt and I believe he is going to address this in the next issue.

In the spirit of the Forum, I requested only that when an editor expressed a personal opinion, they say this, something like "In my opinion, the new series are so much more involving on a variety of roads and the low servicing regiment is a small price to pay"

Oh, and we are still nibbling away at Porsche Cars and hope this to bear fruit at some point, even if only half ripe kiwis
 
ORIGINAL: NicD


In the spirit of the Forum, I requested only that when an editor expressed a personal opinion, they say this, something like "In my opinion, the new series are so much more involving on a variety of roads and the low servicing regiment is a small price to pay"


but I have to disagree.. you cant write an editorial and then express opposite opinions to the ethos of the mag..... they set the tone & control for the ENTIRE magazine..

[8|]
 
Must agree here; it's traditionally the editor that sets the tone for the magazine/paper, and drives it forward.

So, people believe the editor, right or wrong.
 
I go along with the idea that an editor should have the freedom to express an opinion in an editorial column.

But given the somewhat unique position that said editor is in one would expect any opinions aired to be rational and informed, afterall this is not the Sunday Sport we are talking about.

JCB..
 
This is an interesting thread as the question of regular oil changes is a much debated one however, the quality and type of oil you are using can make a huge difference. Many oils available these days say Fully Synthetic on the can but in reality (due to the Mobil vs Castrol US Court Case) are not, they are no more than "hydrocracked" or "molecularly modified" mineral oils and are far inferior to their "true synthetic" cousins which are not derived from petroleum but made "brick by brick" in laboratories by chemists.

A "true synthetic" oil, (ester,pao or blend of the two) will last far longer than these "quasi-synthetics" and you are wasting your money changing them every 5000 miles, good practice or not.

The following describes the situation adequately I feel:

DO TRUE SYNTHETICS REQUIRE A 5000 MILE OIL CHANGE?

The necessity of 5,000 mile oil changes is a myth that has been handed down for decades. Well it's good for the oil companies as they sell more oil!

Tru Synthetic oils are much better value for money than petroleum oils, you just have to know how to use them to your benefit. If you're one who thinks that synthetics are just a marketing ploy to make more money off the same bottle of oil, read through this information and judge for yourself. The whole point of using a synthetic oil is peace of mind, knowing that you can trust the oil in your car to protect the engine.

There are only a few basic reasons why it is necessary to change your oil, and they all, in the end, have to do with decreased protection of your engine and decreased performance. If these elements can be minimized, then there will be little or no reason to change the oil.

What causes the oil to breakdown?

Firstly, all oil breaks down. That generally will include basestocks and additives (actually additives are really "used up" rather than broken down.

The most significant difference from one oil to another is how quickly breakdown occurs. Although there are many factors that contribute to the breakdown of an oil, temperature is one of the most important.
Petroleum oil begins to break-down almost immediately. A high quality true synthetic, on the other hand, can last for many thousands of miles without any significant reduction in performance or protection.

True synthetics designed from the right combination of basestocks and additives can last indefinitely with the right filtration system. The first major difference between petroleum and true synthetic oil is heat tolerance. Flash point is a technical specification referenced by most oil manufacturers which is an indicator of
heat tolerance. The lower the flash point of an oil the greater tendency for that oil to suffer vaporization loss at high temperatures and to burn off on hot cylinder walls and pistons. This leads to oil thickening and deposit build-up on critical engine components. So, the higher the flash point the better. 210 degrees C, is the absolute MINIMUM to prevent possible high consumption and oil thickening due to burn-off.

Today's engines are expected to put out more power from a smaller size and with less oil than engines of the past. Therefore, the engines run much hotter than they used to. That puts an increased burden on the oil.

True synthetics are up to the task. Petroleum oils are a little overmatched. Nevertheless, even though true synthetics are MUCH less prone to burn-off than are petroleum oils, there is still a small amount of burn-off during extremely high temperature operation.

The manner in which petroleum and synthetic oils burn off is important. As a refined product, petroleum oil molecules are of varying sizes. So, as a petroleum oil heats up, the smaller molecules begin to burn off. Deposits and sludge are left behind to coat the inside of your engine. In addition, as smaller particles burn off, the larger, heavier molecules are all that is left to protect the engine. Unfortunately, these larger particles do not flow nearly as well and tend to blanket the components of your engine which only exacerbates the heat problem as friction builds-up.

True synthetic oils, on the other hand, because they are not purified, but rather designed within a lab for lubrication purposes, are comprised of molecules of uniform size and shape.

Even if a synthetic oil does burn a little, the remaining oil has the same chemical characteristics that it had before the burn off. There are no smaller molecules to burn-off and no heavier molecules to leave behind. Moreover, synthetics contain far fewer contaminants than petroleum oils since they are not a refined product. As a result, if oil burn-off does occur, there are few, if any, contaminants left behind to leave sludge and deposits on engine surfaces. Obviously, this leads to a cleaner burning, more fuel efficient engine.

It is also important to note that synthetics do a much better job of "cooling" engine components during operation. Because of their unique flow characteristics, engine components are likely to run 10 to 30 degrees cooler than with petroleum oils. This is important, because the hotter the components in your engine get, the more quickly they break down.

What is Additive Depletion?

Additive depletion comes into play when discussing oil drain intervals. If additives are depleted, the oil cannot effectively do it's job. So, the oil must be changed. It is true that the additives in many oils begin breaking down after only a few thousand miles. What needs to be recognized is that there are different quality "grades" of additives just as there are different quality grades of just about any other product that you buy.

Many oil companies are using the same additives in their oils as all of the other companies because they are cheap. That's why the oil costs less. You get what you pay for! If they were willing to spend the money on top-quality additive packages for their oils, every synthetic on the market would be recommended for extended drain intervals, and they would all be more expensive. The technology has been around for years.

The problem is that oil companies make more money selling a cheaper grade oil and making sure that you change it more often. So, what do the oil additives in your oil do?

Viscosity Retention
Additives are used to maintain a stable viscosity over a wide temperature range. Synthetics need less of these additives than petroleum oils do because synthetic basestocks maintain a fairly stable viscosity by themselves. Also, the additives that are used are more stable than those used in petroleum oils.
As a result, petroleum oils must be changed often because they quickly become unable to retain the viscosity levels necessary to protect your engine (their high temperature viscosity drops off).

Synthetic oils don't really have that problem because both the basestocks and the additives are more stable.

Contaminant Control
Additives are also used to keep oil contamination in check and to keep it from damaging your engine. These additives keep potentially wear causing contaminants suspended and contained in your oil so they don't cause excessive wear or deposit build-up within your engine before your filter can remove them.
Synthetics generally have higher additive treat rates than petroleum oils (in addition to using
higher quality, more expensive additives), so they can perform this contaminant control function for a much longer period of time than a petroleum oil can.

In conclusion, the quality of the oil is important and the "advertising gurus" are having a field day due to the synthetic labelling issues which makes selecting a quality oil a more difficult task unless you have the chemical analysis to prove what its composition is.

Cheers
Simon
 
Simon why don't you submit a weekly technical post on oil, it's really useful to have your input as a reference source for the forum's members. Start a new thread in the 'General Discussion' area and copy your posts here as a starting point in the new thread.
 
I'm off on holiday for 2 weeks tonight and will deal with your suggestion on my return.

I have been talking to the PCGB Committee concerning advising the Club on Oils as I market 5 different brands (Castrol, Mobil, Fuchs, Silkolene and Total) and can give advice and recommendations on a wide range of oils and the best ones to use in your cars. They have been very receptive to my offer and propose to join my "Clubs Oil Scheme" to give PCGB Members good discounts on the oils that I sell.

On my return I'm proposing to start a thread called "Oil advice and Recommendations" where I can post information and advice on all oil related topics. I will not publish prices there but people can email me if they're interested.

If the admins here object to my presence then I would be grateful if they could let me know in advance.

See you in two weeks.

Cheers
Simon
 
I don't think anyone will object Simon so long as you say the post is technical and doesn't focus on business, no one can complain that you are advertising then.
 
Maurice,

No, it's not what I'm saying but there are certainly more HC/MC oils out there today than real synthetics. The reasons are clear, if something can be labelled as a synthetic but costs a fraction to make then more profit for the oil companies.

All companies make a percentage of real synthetics but these tend to be a small percentage as they are costly to make.

You can pretty much guarantee that a 0w or 5w oil will be a PAO or Ester blend as generally only pure synthetics will pass the 0w or 5w tests. Pretty much all oils that are 10w, 15w and 20w etc will be either HC/MC or Mineral oils. There are some exceptions however like Silkolene's PRO range of Ester based products, Mobil 1's PAO blends, Fuchs Supersyn PAO's and Total's Quartz 9000 range of oils.

It is a mixed bag and you have to be careful, data is required which is often not available and therefore chemical analysis is the only sure route to knowing.

As for Castrol well, to quote a few products, SLX 0w-30 and RS 0w-40 are true synthetics and RS 10w-60 is not.

The key point here is, a pretty can on a shelf labelled "synthetic" probably is not and therefore you may not be getting what you're paying for.

Here is something that was written by John Rowland (Silkolene/Fuchs Chief R&D Chemist) which explains things from a chemists point of view, not a salesman.

Building a good oil

A cave may not be the best place to live, but it's ready-made and cheap. This is the estate agent's equivalent of an old style monograde oil. Or you could get Hengist Pod to fit a window and a door; this is moving up to a cheap and cheerful mineral 20w-50. But an architect-designed "machine for living in", built up brick by brick, is an allegory of a high performance synthetic oil.

It is impossible to make a good 5w-40, or even 10w-40, using only mineral oil. The base oil is so thin, it just evaporates away at the high temperatures found in a powerful engine that is being used seriously. Although there are chemical compounds in there to prevent oil breakdown by oxygen in the atmosphere (oxidation) they cannot adequately protect vulnerable mineral oil at the 130 degC plus sump temperatures found in hard worked turbocharged or re-mapped engines.

Synthetics are the answer. They are built up from simple chemical units, brick by brick so as to speak; to make an architect-designed oil with properties to suit the modern engine.

But sometimes, if you look behind the façade, there is a murky old cave at the back! This is because the marketing men have been meddling!

The Synthetic Myth

What do we mean by the word "synthetic"? Once, it meant the "brick by brick" chemical building of a designer oil, but the waters have been muddied by a court case that took place in the USA a few years ago, where the right to call heavily-modified mineral oil "synthetic", was won. This was the answer to the ad-man's dream; the chance to use that sexy word "synthetic" on the can"¦.without spending much extra on the contents! Most lower cost "synthetic" or "semi-synthetic" oils use these hydrocracked mineral oils. They do have some advantages, particularly in commercial diesel lubricants, but their value in performance engines is marginal.

TRUE synthetics are expensive (about 6 times more than top quality mineral oils). Looked at non-basically there are three broad catagories, each containing dozens of types and viscosity grades:-

PIB's (Polyisobutanes)

These are occasionally used as thickeners in motor oils and gear oils, but their main application is to suppress smoke in 2-strokes.

The two important ones are:

Esters

All jet engines are lubricated with synthetic esters, and have been for 50 years, but these expensive fluids only started to appear in petrol engine oils about 20 years ago. Thanks to their aviation origins, the types suitable for lubricants (esters also appear in perfumes; they are different!) work well from ""50 degC to 200 degC, and they have a useful extra trick.

Due to their structure, ester molecules are "polar"; they stick to metal surfaces using electrostatic forces. This means that a protective layer is there at all times, even during that crucial start-up period. This helps to protect cams, gears, piston rings and valve train components, where lubrication is "boundary" rather than "hydrodynamic", i.e. a very thin non-pressure fed film has to hold the surface apart. Even crank bearings benefit at starts, stops or when extreme shock loads upset the "hydrodynamic" film. (Are you listening, all you rally drivers and off road fanatics?)

Synthetic Hydrocarbons or POA's (Poly Alpha Olefins)

These are, in effect, very precisely made equivalents to the most desirable mineral oil molecules. As with esters, they work very well at low temperatures, and equally well when the heat is on, if protected by anti-oxidants. The difference is, they are inert, and not polar. In fact, on their own they are hopeless "boundary" lubricants, with LESS load carrying ability than a mineral oil. They depend entirely on the correct chemical enhancements.

PAO's work best in combination with esters. The esters assist load carrying, reduce friction, and cut down seal drag and wear, whilst the PAO's act as solvents for the multigrade polymers and a large assortment of special compounds that act as dispersants, detergents, anti-wear and oxidant agents, and foam suppressants. Both are very good at resisting high-temperature evaporation, and the esters in particular will never carbonise in turbo bearings even when provoked by anti-lag systems.

I'm off on holiday now for two weeks and will dig out some good stuff from our archives on my return so I'll see you all then. Happy reading!

Cheers
Simon
 
I'm back, refreshed, bronzed and golfed out!

So, a place to post advice and general technical oil stuff, anyone have any ideas where would be the best place as it will be of general interest to all owners.

I can also give advice and recommendations if people need it.

Cheers
Simon
 
I'd like to see you in a new forum heading called 'Technical Articles' so that you can submit the post to a moderator and then it would be posted in a locked thread 'Oil' - whatever - of your own articles about oil. You could add as you wished, maybe one a week/month? For responses open a mirror thread 'Oil Feedback' where a discussion could take place.
If there is a good response to this suggestion someone - me - could ask Admin to create the Forum Heading and away we go once we have a moderator. If not I'll put them in the SC Forum but it might not get looked at so often. Come to think of it it will drive traffic to the SC Forum, damn missed opportunity!? Give it a few days see what happens.
 
If you post in general, I can place a link in the FAQ there.
I could also lock it if you want, then let me or Sophia know when you have an update and we could unlock and relock after you have finished?

Let me know?

Edit:

Sorry Peter - I didn't see your post (above) before I posted mine! Basically the same idea, but I like the idea of a Technical Articles forum[8D]
 
Whatever.

Would it not be easier to have 2 threads running, both sticky's called:

Oil articles and technical information. (For those who wish to learn more)

Oil advice and recommendations. (With a view to building a database of recommendations)

We run many oil advice threads for car clubs and they work well. There are different rules depending on the Club but in general we do not quote prices on open forums, people can contact us by email or PM if they need further info or prices.

It's up to you at the end of the day, I don't wish to upset anyone or cross any rules.

Cheers
Simon
 
I'm suggesting two 'OIL ' threads with one locked so you can post proper technical articles and a free thread - 'OIL FEEDBACK' for discussion all contained within a new Forum heading 'Technical Articles' to prevent them getting lost quickly amongst the general stuff. This forum needs a searchable database of Technical articles and not just threads , you would be an extremely valuable contributor. Locking 'your' thread helps it to produce an uninterrupted stream of useful information. Have a look at 'Running Reports in the SC Forum. They are running unlocked at the moment as we don't have the facility to give out passwords, at least not to my knowledge.
http://www.porscheclubgbforum.com/tt.asp?forumid=93
 

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