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Buying 964RS

ORIGINAL: d5hef

Are 964 RS prices really soaring or is it just hype? There are at least two cars for sale at the moment for between £25 and £28k and they dont look like knackers.

Cheers
Makes you wonder. If there really are decent cars out there at that sort of price, wouldn't somebody like Paul (GT Classics) buy them because that represents a decent profit. While it could be that Paul has more stock than he needs, I suspect that its a case of beauty only being skin deep. When I was looking for a car, I saw a reasonable number that at first glance looked OK (even good) but an hour later, I was disappointed.

The values are driven by 2 markets, namely UK and Europe. If there is a significant enough price difference between them, cars will be imported/exported.In Europe, the prices are holding up OK so they should be over here.
 
You could be lucky and find a bargain.........however don't expect any change out of 32K for a straight decent nice car that is what they are worth and will sell for if they check out add another 5k plus for similar clubsport I looked at a couple of cars recently which were completely shot tracked to hell....but still good drivers as is the longevity of this indestructible supercar so they wear their age and history well...European prices seem more expensive than here........check out www.mobile.de
 
I will pay these prices and higher for the right cars. I am looking for stock have just bought a stunning original Flower Yellow car and am looking for 2 more for myself and I also buy on behalf of Tom from H&S as he is also struggling to find nice cars. I spoke to him several times last week as he's been out and about seen over 10 cars and we've been discussing them. I'm not sure which cars you are referring to, but I am aware of cars I've recently seen in this price bracket.

Only thing I can really say is don't judge the going rate for a car like this from a set of figures in an ad, namely price v mileage. I approached a private seller recently who was selling a Maritime car for £32 to £33k. I really wanted it, but his price was firm. He's sold it for his price. You have to ask yourself why can myself other dealers and some private sales achieve low to mid 30's. Generaly you get what you pay for, but beware an expensive one doesn't gurantee a good one.
 
Selling and buying a 911 is always difficult.......a 964RS probably the biggest minefield as nature of the beast.........prices in Europe rising UK cheaper why? As everyone discovers this was the best ever as a true 911 driver....the fan club spreads...........does the real 911 buyer want PSM...and all the creature comforts of a BMW, MERC...............they went soft when the inpact bumpers appeared but got it back with the 964RS momentarily...........[;)]
 
ORIGINAL: Brian McClellan

If they are fetching that sort of money, then what's wrong with the £25k car on Pistonheads?
http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/sales/52144.htm
For a starter, its got the wrong wheels and if you can get new ones, thats £4000 to start. Buy s/h and get them restored and you are still looking at £1500+ (if you can find them). Then you have to wonder what the service history is like. If it came from Germany with a roll cage, it probably has had a hard life (as they all have).

On the other hand it might be a bargain in which case I am sure Paul will snap it up quickly unless somebody realises its a bargain.

The strange thing about 964RS's is that most people who buy them know what they are looking for and usually see a fair number of cars before finding a good one.That's why decent ones really do fetch the money. However, there is always somebody out there who doesn't know enough or is prepared to take a risk.
 
ORIGINAL: carreraboy

And it looks black minus 25% and it's got Lee Fulford wheels...........need to see it............[:eek:]

They're not Lee Fulford wheels, they're Jekyl n' Hides or "Skint Members" wheels as we in the trade like to call them. Mine are the Big boys wheels and would probably cost you more than 4 bags...if you could find a set.[;)]

Got the wrong rear bumper too hasn't it?

As you state Des it's got a radio SACRILEGE. Another £2000 off.
 
Come on guys, everyone on this forum, or at the least the ones in the trade, knows that these cars rarely do or do not sell at all when they are up in the £30K's. Sure a few people may have paid these prices but they clever ones would not part with their hard earned at these heights unless they have too much of it or are just too lazy to go further than their local specialist. Dealer prices continue to push upwards making a false impression of what the values really are, but they often come down again, just look in the back of the PP month on month and you will see a number of traders lowering previous month's prices to generate some interest. The rest is just RS owner hype.

Everyone has seen good cars for high £20's and they will continue to pop up now and again, Sure you won't get a 5,000 mile time warp but you can get a very good car. Tatty car sold at 911 Virgin for less than the £25K asking price a few months back and even Gmund has a nice looking RS up for £28K and they are known for their high asking prices...

Mobile.de are always overpriced and rarely generate a sale. A couple at Belgium dealers in the £20's even with the crappy exchange rate.

I would suggest that the range is correct at £23K for a bad example, to £30K for an extremely good one. Cup/Clubsport add a few points.. If you have paid in the £30K's and it is not something special, im sorry, you have just paid too much - simple as that.

Believe the hype if you must, but the rest of us, I would suggest, are smarter than that.

Also the problem with hyping a price up too high too fast...bursting bubbles...the unlucky will get burned.
 
Manipou

While you are entitled to your opinion, I don't think you are right. I think one of the issues is what people consider acceptable and their "benchmark". I can only talk about RHD cars because that is what I looked for and there was certainly a mismatch between what I called a good car and what others called good.

There is also the econmics of it all. I wouldn't want to buy a tatty car for £25,000 because I have seen how much it can cost to get them back to A1 condition. Take my car, as an example. The person who owned it before me spent over £12,000 in 3 years getting it mechanically spot on. New suspension incuding wishbones, new disks, pads, hoses etc, reconned LSD, wheel bearings, front hubs, ecu chip and other mods, new oil lines......................the list goes on. However, the difference between driving this car and any other one I tested was extraodinary.

At the same time as my car was for sale, there were 2 other RHD cars, one for the same money and one for £1000 less. Both cars looked great, maybe even better than my car but I knew that these cars would cost me a lot of money over time. I also drove a LHD car which had the best body condition of the lot (maybe a respray) and looked stunning inside and out. However, it was the worst car in terms of mechanical condition and I know that sold to some poor sod for £29,000.

There will always be people who know enough about these cars and cars in general, who will pay good money for the right car. They know that you need to look at the toal cost of ownership over time and would rather pay up for a great example than buy a shed. I paid £38,000 for my car and still think it was worth paying the money. In fact, I would have needed to see a car as low as £30k before it would have been worth me taking the chance on a lesser car.

The same applies to LHD cars. A poor condition car has prbably got at least £10k of trouble in it and therefore if you say that a poor one is worth £23,000 then a good one has got to be at least £33,000. That means that £30,ooo is about right for a car that is only a bit above average.

As for the bubble bursting, i really don't see this happening. In fact, I am as convinced that these cars represent a good investment. There aren't enough around, both here and on the continent, to satisfy the long term demand that i see coming. It really is the last truly collectable 911 (and maybe the 993RS). Peaple are only now beginning to realise how good a car and what a fine achievement they are. Luckily, the more recent GT3RS points this out in no uncertain terms. If you collect or are interested in older cars, these cars are the best thing since the original 70's RS and there has been nothing since.

I doubt prices will rise quickly but I really do think they are bomb proof when it comes to values.
 
Wow Manipou has really throw the cat in there.

Basically agree with everything Simon said really. Manipou did you read my last post? Said I will happily pay these prices, meaning very high 20's even upto 30 and did in the last couple of weeks. I sell more cars than you see go on the site to waiting customers. I bought one only last week and it was just superb, picked it up on a tuesday sold by friday, no point wasting time putting it on the web site.

Also my last post said both myself and H&S are looking for stock. Between us we've seen over a dozen examples of 964 RS in the last 2 weeks, a couple of special ones worth buying, but we'd have to pay over 30k ourselves to get them in stock. If you can buy the cars of the quality I'm talking about for less please do and I'll pay you. I was offered the Red 28k car you talk of and I inspected it / test drove it. Firstly it's a Cat D insurance write off, secondly it has poor panel alignment and thirdly needed money spending mechanically when I saw it.

Sorry to bang on about previous posts but also said earlier "do not sit in comfy chair and compare cars based on numbers like mileage and price". At the end of the day people buy a particular car for the price they are happy with, so there is a market for the cars at both ends of the scale. I have people waiting for 964 RS and 993 RS and if there was somthing I thought they would buy from me I'd go and get it.
 
Simon, if you are happy with what you paid then that is all that matters, RHD and the condition that you describe will always command a premium on the prices that I posted. I agree with your calculations but the simple fact is that not everyone has £38K to put into an RS and some people will happily pay £14K less for a LHD example (how they should be) which is a little rough round the edges, that can be made better over a number of years to spread the cost.

RSR, with your contacts and exposure as an RS specialist you can ask whatever prices you like, there will always be people prepared to pay the hyped prices for good cars, for pleasure, investment or whatever. However the clever ones would never pay these prices as good cars are available much cheaper, I have seen them with my own eyes. You probably bought a few of them and made a tidy profit. That is your trade after all, you should make as much profit as you can and you are doing that. £44K for a Clubsport..Crazy

Like I said there are a couple of RS's in Belgium that are at a more realistic price and I have seen a 92 964 Clubsport in great condition (No Mags but only a £1200 problem) at a dealer in Germany for £32K, The same German dealer up until recently had a immaculate 1991 Cup Car (rarer than the Clubsport) up for the £33K, which I nearly bought.

It is only my opinion as some have stated but those who have around £40K burning a hole in your pocket for an RS/CUP/N-GT, why not do a bit of research and travel farther than you local 7/11. You will have a fair few thousand left over to give to charity.




 
I'm sure I know the Cup car you refer to. It was up for quite a while earlier in the year. To confirm we are talking about the same car we maybe do it offline. I'm glad you missed it, unless the things I know about it don't bother you. Maybe they didn't as you seem to be the sort to buy on price not on condition and provenance.

You mentioned twice now that the "clever" ones buy the cheap ones. Interesting. Read any acknowledged buyers guide on buying used Porsche of any model and the same message comes through loud and clear. Buy the best example of that model you can afford. I'm assuming here that the buyer has used an inspection as I have stated earlier to be careful. The most expensive doesn't mean the best example. The only thing that makes some sense in what you've said is that you can't spend that much up front and will slowly sort it out over time. What I'm saying is you will normally end up spending the same if not more. I think the clever ones do something contrary to your suggestion, either this or all my customers are not very clever.

These examples are typical, but there are always exceptions:
£25k car. Probably had some panels replaced, disks / pads need doing very soon, LSD doing nothing, dampers way past their best, clutch maybe needs doing and something original may be gone like mags or bonnet. Various combinations of these will exist.

£31k car. At this price bracket I can supply a totally original panel car, full history with all stickers and provenance, new tyres, new disks/pads, recent clutch, recent diff, all original parts there and in superb cosmetic order inside and out.

For me I know the smart choice, especially as the whole reason to buy a 964 RS is because of the way they drive. Unless all the mechanical things I've listed are sorted the experience is not the same. Like SimonExtreme said, he drove many cars and recognised the difference of the sorted car straight away.
 
Yes I am the sort where price is a factor. As I have suggested, the people for which money is not a factor will buy from dealers like youeself and will pay your asking price. I am not one of these people.

I did not say buy cheap, I said you can get similar cars for less money than sone dealers seem to think they are worth. This was not directed solely at you but the Clubsport does seem on the expensive side.

The Cup car I nearly bought was almost certainly not the same as the one you are talking about. It was only on the market for 3 weeks, I went to germany to view it and only didnt buy it as another buyer came along and snapped it up. It had come from a collector in Japan who had had it totally restored in 2003 and had not used it since.

However I do not know if there is a story on the black N-GT currently for sale at £32K

I aggree with you on the fact that you should buy the best example you can afford, but that does not mean that you have to go to a dealer and pay what they think is the correct price. As I said this is just my opinion and my personal preference is to look around and pay more like what you would pay for a car.

The other thing is that in my first post I said £30K for a nice example. You say that you can supply " £31K. At this price bracket I can supply a totally original panel car, full history with all stickers and provenance, new tyres, new disks/pads, recent clutch, recent diff, all original parts there and in superb cosmetic order inside and out"

I dont think we are far off each other are we? £31K? Once you have taken away your profit margin you can see that they must be available at less than £30K..That is of course if you sell your cars at a profit, my guess is that you do.
 
manipou

With respect, you really do not seem to understand what is being said. Firstly, you say that there are these cars that are imacculate for the money you say. However, it is clear you haven't seen them and rely on pictures and descriptions. Here lies the proplem. Descriptions and pictures give no idea what the car is really like.

I am sure we all agree that Paul really does know what he is looking at. If he cannot find cars at the right standard, why do you think that others can? I cannot understand why you think people are clever buying the cars that Paul won't touch, because that is what you are saying. If Paul has clients who are willing to pay his money and there are cars on the market that would give him a good profit, why do you think he is not buying them?

Some people really don't understand what they are buying. An average car is a time bomb waiting to go off and while I often accept that there are things that need upgrading on a car which can be done over time, I would only do that with things that can never become "mission critical". The alternative is to risk a large bill that could happen at any time.

The other thing that makes it look like you are being unrealistic is your comment about the wheels. If you can get me a set of original wheels in good nick for £1200, I will buy them for cash.

As I have posted before, there seem to be a reasonable number of cars out there at average prices but I have yet to see one that will stand expert attention.
 
'Clever people' would buy off Paul and pay the extra few grand to get a sorted car that has been inspected by someone with probably way more knowledge and skill then most 'not so clever' (me included) people have. The peace of mind in getting a car from someone with such a high reputation where that continued reputation is paramount to being able to continue such a hobby without getting burnt is well worth it.

Idiots buy from somewhere like ebay [;)]

[:D]
 
In my experience a car that appears to be good value, say circa £25k as RSR says is bound to have had new panels etc. That car no matter how much money you throw at it can never be a prime example and worth top money, surely. That is why people will pay top money for the right car. These cars are getting harder to find.


ORIGINAL: manipou


The Cup car I nearly bought was almost certainly not the same as the one you are talking about. It was only on the market for 3 weeks, I went to germany to view it and only didnt buy it as another buyer came along and snapped it up. It had come from a collector in Japan who had had it totally restored in 2003 and had not used it since.

How can a car so young have been "Totally Restored" and be a top example? That says it all.
 
"At the end of the day people buy a particular car for the price they are happy with"

Thankyou Paul....
 
Jason, couldn't agree more. Wish I had some of the money I have spent over the years on what I 'thought' was a good car at the time. IMO, Paul's knowledge and passion brings great peace of mind and I am delighted with the 993 RS he found for me.[:D] Sorry it is a 993 guys but progress is progress[:D][:D]
 

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