Buying 964RS

[Manipoe]

Simon, with ALL due respect, you seem to be in the position where you can afford to buy the best there is, it IS the safest way to a good car, I agree. But"¦you look at asking prices and think that things are not available for less.

If you do not know that much about finding a good car then, yes, the very best way to get a good one is to go to someone like GT Classics, someone that does truly know his stuff, no argument there.

I don't think that you are 'not clever' after all you are in one of the highest positions in your field, but just because you are 19 years my senior it does not mean that you may know more than I do or that I can't read and understand what is on the page. There is also no need for the condescending tone. I have been all over the world to buy cars and do not just rely on pictures, I have bought Silver Ghosts from LA to Mercedes SS's from Australia, Hispano Suiza's from Canada, these cars are worth more than the average UK mansion. I have been involved or directly responsible for the purchase of nearly 50 cars for a collector in the north of Spain, the collection currently valued at nearly £5M. The collector has one of every single model Rolls Royce ever made, now that is commitment"¦.I have bought everything from Lambo's to Cadillacs and never paid what a specialist said I would have to, and that wasn't because I bought bad cars"¦.

A truly bad car is a time bomb but an average car is not necessarily so, you have justified paying top money for your car and you are happy with that, after all that is what it is all about, being happy with your choices and having fun in a truly great car.

I bought Mags in excellent condition from Germany less than 6 months ago for £1,218 inc shipping. (I just looked at the payment debit advise from Nat West). Currently there is a set on Ebay that the seller is asking £1500 and that probably will reduce if he does not get a buyer in the next 4 days. I bought an original set of 9 and 11 x 15 Fuchs in unbelievable, unwelded condition from Germany for £2,901 inc shipping. They are asking for more than double that at some dealers.

The fact that you are surprised by my price estimate on something as simple as a set of Mags makes me think that I am probably wasting my time trying to explain what is and what isn't available at a certain price but I base my price estimates on what I have paid and what is available, albeit not readily, in the market if you look hard enough.

Lee, most race cars will not have original panels, 15 year old race cars can easily be in need of restoration, especially when they are going into a private museum or collection and the owner wants it "˜as it came out the factory'.."¦

Ebay is about 95% rubbish and 5% good value.
"˜Clever' people can fish through the crap and get genuinely good buys[]

 

[jason]

Manipou, well put.

I think we are all agreed that there are always cars available at less than what all dealers will offer the same cars for.

But thats how the likes of you and Paul can get them at less than most of us - simply because 'most' of us are not prepared to take the risk on a cheaper car as 'most' of us do not have your knowledge on what to check in detail for.

I'm sure we all wish we did...!

As long as your happy with your purchase (and you actually use the damn thing) then everyones a winner.

J

 

[carreraboy]

ORIGINAL: G RS

Jason, couldn't agree more. Wish I had some of the money I have spent over the years on what I 'thought' was a good car at the time. IMO, Paul's knowledge and passion brings great peace of mind and I am delighted with the 993 RS he found for me.[] Sorry it is a 993 guys but progress is progress[][]

so you could not handle the 964RS then G RS.... note it was your virgin post enjoy the 993.........

 

[carreraboy]

Oh dear the old let's find a bargain 964RS chestnut...........YES WE CAN BE FORTUNATE.....and come across all kinds of personal reasons why people need to sell quickly and get a good deal BUT 99 OUT OF A HUNDRED YOU HEAR ABOUT IT AFTER THE EVENT....you guys in the trade have ears to the gound and constant advertising.....so the odd one may well get to you and rarely to a private punter....I'm in the property game and same rules apply..that's what keeps us all in business! Masters of our trade Monsieur Manipou........I know Paul has turrned down many cars to buy and broker and has good reputation for not peddling crap but his prices seem very fair and indeed his commission modest...he brokered my car 9 months ago which I have just bought back...these are incredible machines which do apreciate in value well over 5% year on year over the last 5 years, I remember when I first was interested 23K would get you the dogs danglers NOT SO NOW..same car and we would seem to agree maybe on an earlier post is now 33% more in 4 years! Clubsports becoming a 40k car for a good please don't tell me otherwise........LHD only I'm talking here.the modern motoring press rave about the 964RS comparing it with everything and only once beaten by the 2.7RS lightweight in an all time group test with 993GT2 and you name it.there is not a 911 out there with such charisma driver appeal and pure Porsche philosphy the ultimate drivers car and the word is spreading.market conditions on a purely supply and demand (law of economics) will continue to make these cars at least inflation proof....so you are in a way buying an investment as you clients do no doubt with the raer kit you supply them....we drive our cars and don't treat them as garage queens (except for Herr Fulford) as the Dr P. intended.....so where are these cheap 964RS's I will have some off you....not knowing I was getting my old car back I triedto look for a decent car....hello you have a 964RS for sale...sorry Sold...sorry Sold....sorry sold....not even Paul could get me whar I wanted at the time..they only made 2051 cars.........as Mark Twain saidabout Land they don't make it anymore........

I know of a ClubSport that sold last year for nearly 50k £ 5000 klms and a 1000 Klms 964RS Lightweight in Rubystone 100,000 Euro these are genuine garage queens and bought buy investors no doubt for a rainy day..buying a piece of long lost Porsche history.........

RHD v LHD values converging daily as they are being sought after worlwide inc USA.........

[]

 

[SimonExtreme]

G RS

Have you recently bought a rather nice red car? If so, there is a good chance I know the last owner and if it is the car I think it is, you have bought a really good one (for a 993RS, that is[]).

 

[Guest]

Des, didn't think I would get away with that one.......roll on North weald! Have to say that I love the car, so,so different to my previous 993 C2, I guess that's what RS is all about.

 

[Guest]

Hi Simon, previous owner was'PA', seemed really genuine and helpfull when we had a chat. Hated having to sell the car, must have been a hard decision.

 

[stuj76]

I don't mean to upset anyone by saying the below, but no doubt I will upset someone "" so here goes!

I have a very keen interest in the 964RS, and follow this forum, although this is the first time I have posted on it. I do not know a great deal about the 964RS, other than what I have read and heard others say about this iconic Porsche. But, it appears to me that there is a lot of snobbery in this particular thread portraying the purchase of such a fine example of this Porsche as, dare I say it - a "˜status symbol'!! [&:]

I too am in the market for this particular Porsche and will be purchasing the best example I can afford (I am not a rich man and work hard for what I have), which brings me to my point. Does it really matter how much or how little we pay for such an item, whether it has a radio cassette or not providing the end result is that of "˜happiness' with our purchase.

I know of someone who has just paid £15k for a fully functional LHD "˜64RS and quote his words "˜I have fallen in love again' after driving it for a great number of consecutive hours "" isn't this what it is all about???

I take on board that "˜you get what you pay for' but if you are content and can afford it does it really matter if it is LHD or RHD, 5000 miles on the clock or if it is a globetrotter, Hpi clear or CAT D (especially as some of us on here will use it as a track only car)

Yes there are varying examples out there that are to be found and yes these do vary in price and quite considerably from what I can gather but I now feel like that if I haven't got the best example, in the best colour, with the least miles on in all its original splendour that I will not be accepted as one of the crowd!

No doubt this post will probably result in a severe beating from someone once I do join the "˜64RS group on my first track day "" never mind! []

Stu

 

[SimonExtreme]

ORIGINAL: manipou
I don't think that you are 'not clever' after all you are in one of the highest positions in your field, but just because you are 19 years my senior it does not mean that you may know more than I do or that I can't read and understand what is on the page. There is also no need for the condescending tone. I have been all over the world to buy cars and do not just rely on pictures, I have bought Silver Ghosts from LA to Mercedes SS's from Australia, Hispano Suiza's from Canada, these cars are worth more than the average UK mansion. I have been involved or directly responsible for the purchase of nearly 50 cars for a collector in the north of Spain, the collection currently valued at nearly £5M. The collector has one of every single model Rolls Royce ever made, now that is commitment"¦.I have bought everything from Lambo's to Cadillacs and never paid what a specialist said I would have to, and that wasn't because I bought bad cars"¦.

Oh, here we go again. There is always somebody who wants to prove they know so much and have done so much. Up until this load of drivel, I had a reasonable respect for you. I stated that everybody is entitled to an opinion and if I sounded condecending, it was by accident rather than deliberate and I appologise.

However, if the above is meant to impress and show your superior knowledge, then you have missed the mark. If you are in the trade, then its your job to find those bargains and it is the punters who realise that is what they are paying for. If you are not in the trade, then I still find your logic strange.

You say I look at the asking price and and think you cannot buy things for less, you are totally wrong. However, I am lucky enough to know what I am looking at having owned a classic car restoration busineses for 5 years and have rebuilt many cars from scratch. I am also fortunate to be able to do the sums of vehicle economics and it is clear that it is worth paying up for the best examples than buying a cheaper one and doing it up slowly.

Without wishing to recreate a spreadsheet on here, if you work out the present value of doing the work over time and then add the cost of finance, it si clearly cheaper to buy the prestine car. and at today's cost of finance, it makes sense. Having said that, I do own my car outright but when doing the sums, you need to add in the cost of money.

In addition, while you can plan to upgrade a car over time, you often find that a large bill jumps out when you weren't ready. Cars never need large sums of money spending on them at the most convinient time to you.

As Paul has indicated and I have tried to show, "clever" people who understand money realise it is cheaper to buy the more expensive cars. Now, you can try locating them yourself but one of the strange things about people who have really good examples is that they know the value as well which is why you do not get great cars for bargain prices.

However, I am sure we will continue to disagree as we will over the wheels. As I have said to you, get me a set of top quality mags for £1500, I will buy them. 6 months ago you could get sets for £1200 in the UK and I wish I had bought them but I have been looking and cannot find any at a decent price. As for the ones on ebay, I have my doubts about their true condition[]

 

[SimonExtreme]

ORIGINAL: G RS

Hi Simon, previous owner was'PA', seemed really genuine and helpfull when we had a chat. Hated having to sell the car, must have been a hard decision.

My mind has suddenly gone blank! The first initial is right but I cannot remember his surname!! He is a member of my golf club and a really nice guy. If you are at North Weald, we can catch up then.

 

[jason]

Stu, I can understand why you might post what you did above but a lot of what you say maybe comes from interpretation of the posts a certain RS soldier...and I'm sure Dessie just likes winding all non-RS owners up...take it in the backslapping humour its intended. Now he'll post he's serious and all your cars are inferior to the Leichtblau or something similar...[]

I don't think there is any snobbery in the RS sect just real passion for the cars and a bit of banter, and you get this in the other variants also...I've always been a 911 nut but recently came from a 968 and the guys in the 968 forums are just as fanatical..often winding up the 911 boys.

Don't worry about what other people think...my car is black (would not be my first choice) and has a CD player (albeit it will never get switched on...have you heard that engine noise?!!) has 70k miles on the clock and certainly wasn't the most expensive RS you will see[] - which is why I have it I couldn't aford anything more with 3 kids, house, business etc etc

But,

I LOVE IT

and it will only ever leave my hands if being replaced by another.

I think my advice would be there are good cars at all the varying prices...but just make sure you don't get a wrong'un as it will be expensive to sort or it will have been somewhere or doing something you really don't want to here about at a later date....

Jason
(Oh and I had a 3.2 Supersport aswell and loved that too...)

 

[Laurence Gibbs]

Stu don't get disheartened. There is no snobbery here, just a bit of hearty banter. Several of us know each other so well that we tend to take the P a bit. The radio thing is a bit of goadmanship.
With regard to values I think what most people are saying is buy the best you can afford and enjoy it. But be carefull there are many bad cars out there. The fact is people with good cars are aware of there value and sell accordingly. The dealers are just the same they know the market and what a car will command. There are good cars at the lower end of the market but most will need a little work and a not so little amount of money spent. A car with missing mag wheels and tired suspension could leave you with a bill for £3.5k so don't take these problems llightly.A "cheap" RS is normally cheap for a reason. If you want to buy a car that goes and handles like an RS rather than a bag of bolts buy very carefully. Don't be put off by panel damaged cars but get them inspected to insure the work done is of decent quality.
At all costs what you do not want is a car with a Carrera RS badge and chassis numbers that handles as well as a trabant (no direspect to trabant owners).Cars at the lower end of the spectrum have a nasty tendancy to be in this group. Please also be aware that a test drive on the road will NOT bring out the cars limits or lack of them.

 

[stuj76]

Jason, Laurence

Thanks for the advice [] - I did suspect that a lot of this was just banter amongst friends, but felt that some people do see it as unless you are prepared to spend big bucks it ain't worth looking at. Just my opinion.

So for my budget of £30k 'ish I should be able to get a good example that may need a little money spending on it? Once Christmas is over and with the blood returning back to my alcohol system then I will recommence my search. In the meantime, I am aware of a few dealers but would welcome anyone to send me links, contact numbers to UK or worldwide dealers. Closer to the time I guess I can also call upon the people in the RS register as well for information?

Stu

 

[Yoda]

Glad we are all focusing on the great pleasure had from owning and driving these cars ...... as long as people are having fun!!

At least the forum is active!!

 

[sambaman]

cannay fault em ......[]

 

[SimonExtreme]

Of course its all banter, except for the bit about 964 RS's being better than 993RS's in which case its just fact[]. (although the car that I think G RS has is as close as you can get to the real thing without actually being one[])

stuj76 - the best advice I can give, from personal experience, is to be as patient as possible. Being after a LHD car there is, at least, more choice than I had with RHD. Even though my car felt in a different league to drive compared with others, it also came with a full Autofarm inspection report and an in depth recent history that showed how much had been spent on it. I felt I knew everything about the car and in the last year and 7000 miles, nothing unexpected has been found. I recently had the car serviced and the report by GT- One convinces me it was worth waiting for the right car. so, make sure you have enough money in your budget for a full and independent report on a car and be prepared to walk if needed.

 

[carreraboy]

ORIGINAL: G RS

Des, didn't think I would get away with that one.......roll on North weald! Have to say that I love the car, so,so different to my previous 993 C2, I guess that's what RS is all about.

I was running a 993C2 Varioram coupe tip when I was departed originally from my 964RS lovely car the 993 too modern too civilised too predicable too slow too comfortable........boy did I miss the RS......now reunited[]

 

[pressing]

Dwell on these facts manipoo:

To try and source a car cheaper than the ones available via Paul Mclean you will:

Have numerous wasted journies around Europe when the cars are not as described (believe me I've done it)

Incurr significant costs travelling to see these vehicles in the hope that the next one will be good

I could not justify the time required to source a good quality 964rs in this manner. Sure you will pay a premium buying a car through Paul (after all he's not a registered Charity as far as I know) but if you sat down and did the sums, with travelling/days of work etc, etc, etc. it could well be cheaper to but from him in the first place!

All of the above is based on the fact you know what you are looking for!

Most people do not have the skill or knowledge to assess if the car is good or not (no offence to those that do) and are willing to pay a premium for someone with an encyclopedic level of knowledge and skill at appraising cars do it for them.

 

[Manipoe]

That's better, a bit of passion, which is after all what this section is about, Passion for one of Stuttgart's finest, no point being special otherwise"¦

The price estimates in my first post were designed to be slightly controversial but I guess some realised that, although I do still see some ridiculous prices sometimes.

Des I knew I could count on you for some figures.. APR%, % rise/time, wow better than my ISA? £40K, £50K, 100K euros etc etc. It must be because you are back in ownership.[]

Simon, sorry if I came across as high and mighty, I was just saying that you were not talking to a tyre kicker.... I have never said that I know more than someone like Paul.

5 years in Restoration? Your buying practices make much more sense now, by the way I agree with you. Its just not all people can do what you have done and get the best.

My father had a car restoration business for 20 years before turning his hand to vehicle leasing after the bottom fell out the vintage/classic car market. When it did we got stuck with 2 cars that were put into storage rather than take a loss. One was a Lamborghini Miura, a truly great car and the other was a blood orange 1973 2.7RS No.0713 later to be sold by Autofarm. (I still have some of the original Spanish import docs if anyone knows the current owner, he/she can have them.) I was 12 years old and totally hooked. By 15 I was driving it up and down the drive on Sundays but we sold it just before my 17th birthday, I was not happy. That's where it all started for me.

Anyway I digress, RS prices will always go up and down, dealers will always push prices up and try to make the best profit they can, all I was trying to say is that one way to buy is to go to one of these dealers, but there has to at least be recognition that there are other ways of doing things and they can prove to have a cost saving"¦

As for snobbery, there is definitely some"¦..I have heard of 964 RS owners staying anonymous and not getting involved in discussion as they can't be bothered with the non acceptance of disagreeing with the small group of people whose opinion is gospel"¦

pressing, there is no need for name calling! And I rarely dwell.. it only seems to be Co. Directors that feel the need to tell me how I should think, there must be something in that"¦.[/b]

Simon when I find a set of restored Mags for £1500 I will send them your way"¦

 

[pressing]

All in jest pou! Seriously though, I thought the thrust of my post would have elicited a more interesting response from you, rather than a generalisation about company directors telling you how to think. I was merely trying to highlight the fact that your approach could in fact have no financial gain over sourcing through a reputable specialist. If you had several wasted journies/time of work not earning (perhaps you have great wealth so do not have to!) then the price advantage between sourcing a car privately versus a specialist would be negated. Or even worse once you've factored in the things you could have missed you could be out of pocket.