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Disadvantages of bigger diameter & lower profile (Heavier wheels)

Ed,I'm surprised there hasn't been a "Pistols at Dawn" challenge issued-in my case,with the limited power & torque available in a standard 2.5 l 924S despite lowered suspension & Turbo roll bars front & aft,slightly better engine breathing ,standard brakes & an ageing driver,I think I go as fast as the technology allows without ABS,powersteering & all the gizmos the modern guys have-that's the fun for me(& the scares when it's been wet!)

I think Roger's 924S is intriguing & good-only sorry a funeral got in the way of the Nov trackday as I had intended to go ,possibly drive a halfday & see his car & hopefully it's performance.

As for lessons on chassis ,roadholding & suspension (including wheels/tyres) design.perhaps Roger would like to pen an interesting article for PP away from the angst of the forum![8|]
 
944Scott said:
A lot of cars are weekend vehicles for their owners, for those with larger wheels the trade off between driveability and looks is acceptable compromise and for some part of a modification as to how they think their vehicle should have looked when it left the factory (myself included) I went from turbo twists to cup 1's for no noticeable difference to how the car performed. Anyway I have found some new wheels for my ride, what do you think pretty rad eh [;)]

162415d1168146806-post-pics-of-your-944-wheels-here-monday-006.jpg



Wow that's a like a cross over coupe / 4x4 Ride height and Spangly wheel set up...
Sure the whole "Looky" thing is a huge sport and a massive amount of people buy cars because they like the
"look of them", as do millions modify their car's to create a personal & Kool "look" because that's want they want to do..

That's no problem with me at all.

However what is difficult to get across to many is a lot of the changes will Slow the car down and have disadvantages
it's this bit which as you've already seen on this thread some people will not accept whatsoever.
Sure some do, and purely want the Sunday drive look etc.. and accept the downsides.

I'm well aware I'm in the minority here as my criteria for my road project has nothing towards it's look whatsoever.
Looks were the priority 25 years ago, but not today.

My last 10 years have been spent specialising in wheels & tyres, which coupled with my Racing, technical jobs in F1 , Koni,
and a personal Porsche transaxle interest have led me to different places getting more of a buzz from understanding suspension.

And not getting any thrills from slamming my car and fitting huge hoops etc..Because I now know it slows the car down and i don't want this, or do other people hence why I thought i'd attempt to inform my findings and chat about other peoples.?

R


 
FFS - is this still going? Glad to see I'm not alone in the "minority" quickly getting bored of diatribe-man.

I fitted a set of 911 wheels and tyres in the sizes that Edh mentioned to my Twbo for this (as it was a cold late October): https://youtu.be/PKMNZWk5FNI

The car understeered, and as one forum member on here will testify as my passenger it took a bit of effort to actually get the rear to step out for a few doughnuts As the car just wanted to push on.

Changed back to 225 fronts and after the merest hint of understeer - the car would break away into a progressive slide. And for what it's worth I've also tried 205 fronts with 225 rears and the car is slower through the corners due to lack of grip. When I last checked, there were more corners than straights on a track.

So, I'll stick with 255 rears and 225 fronts thanks. Given I've had lots of Porsche and 944 owners in both seats of my car I'll feel content with the comment of a racing driver mate of mine who couldn't believe the lateral grip my car had.

I'm already smiling at the seething pit of keyboard warrior rage that will be unleashed at me for daring to have an opinion backed up with lots of actual first hand experience.

Roger Over and Out.

P.s. - I'm led to believe that you have some in-car footage from Oulton Park, post it up and we'll all see whether theory and practice are aligned!
 
Eldavo said:
FFS - is this still going? Glad to see I'm not alone in the "minority" quickly getting bored of diatribe-man.
I fitted a set of 911 wheels and tyres in the sizes that Edh mentioned to my Twbo for this (as it was a cold late October): https://youtu.be/PKMNZWk5FNI
The car understeered, and as one forum member on here will testify as my passenger it took a bit of effort to actually get the rear to step out for a few doughnuts As the car just wanted to push on.
Changed back to 225 fronts and after the merest hint of understeer - the car would break away into a progressive slide. And for what it's worth I've also tried 205 fronts with 225 rears and the car is slower through the corners due to lack of grip. When I last checked, there were more corners than straights on a track.
So, I'll stick with 255 rears and 225 fronts thanks. Given I've had lots of Porsche and 944 owners in both seats of my car I'll feel content with the comment of a racing driver mate of mine who couldn't believe the lateral grip my car had.
I'm already smiling at the seething pit of keyboard warrior rage that will be unleashed at me for daring to have an opinion backed up with lots of actual first hand experience.
Roger Over and Out.
P.s. - I'm led to believe that you have some in-car footage from Oulton Park, post it up and we'll all see whether theory and practice are aligned!



That's the Spirit ! keep the discussions coming!

R
 
vitesse said:
I think Roger's 924S is intriguing & good-only sorry a funeral got in the way of the Nov trackday as I had intended to go ,possibly drive a halfday & see his car & hopefully it's performance.


Yes, that was shame then as it would of been nice to play and "Go Compare" with another Transaxle..
Next year maybe ?

R
 
Eldavo
I fitted a set of 911 wheels and tyres in the sizes that Edh mentioned to my Twbo
The car understeered, and as one forum member on here will testify as my passenger it took a bit of effort to actually get the rear to step out for a few doughnuts As the car just wanted to push on.


These sizes ?
EDH So what would you advise the 944 owner who's fitted some 911 wheels with 205/50/17 fronts and 255/40/17's rear and is complaining about understeer? (ignore other possible suspension changes)
- Wider or narrower fronts?


I'm not surprised ! much less slip angle with 255's than the narrower fronts either decrease the rears, or as you did increase the fronts..

P.s. - I'm led to believe that you have some in-car footage from Oulton Park, post it up and we'll all see whether theory and practice are aligned!




No sorry i've not got any Go Pro's or similar equipment..

R

 
'Unsprung weight' is a red-herring. The real advantage that comes from small/lighter wheels and tyres is the decreased gyroscopic force, or rather, the disadvantage which comes from having heavier wheels, always overlooked, is the massively increased gyroscopic force.

If you think that this isn't relevant, then have someone spin a childs bike wheel on its spindle whilst you are holding it like forks and try to steer. A good chunk of unsuspended mass isn't always a bad thing, but the massive self-stabilising force generated is always a bad thing.
 

[944 man]
'Unsprung weight' is a red-herring.

It's very relevant to keeping the tyre on the road, and the rear wheels don't have the same "Gyroscopic effect" put on them as the fronts do.

The more you can reduce the 4 corner masses that are unsprung the better. This was why the Lotus 72 chassis was so successful for many years with Inboard brake discs etc..

944 man "have someone spin a childs bike wheel on its spindle whilst you are holding it like forks and try to steer"

Yes, 20 years ago I saw this demonstrated by Bilstein in a training session I attended where they had a single wheel and a set of forks which you could hold, whilst the wheel was spun to feel the effects when turning..

944 man A good chunk of unsuspended mass isn't always a bad thing

When would it be considered as good then, for Comfort and inertia and not speed?

R
 
924Srr27l said:
edh said:
I'd rather hear from an expert...

But i'd always thought that to reduce understeer you should add grip at the front or reduce it from the rear.

So for the front, It's either a
1.wider tyre with a lower profile
Or
2. A narrower tyre with a higher profile

Hmmm... how many people would choose 2. ?

924Srr27l said:
...The downside of a low profile tyre and large wheel......(Traction) and braking is not as good as the contact patch of
a larger profile tyre....

btw Your golf figures quote improved braking and lateral g numbers for bigger wheels/lower profile tyres.

If you read page 1, I agree with some of what you wrote. But there's no discussion or debate, just a constant assertion of your sacred truths.


Yes the whopping 19's produced very small amounts of increased figures (lat and braking), not enough to make them a consideable improvement, but acceleration suffered by some margin.

Add all the characteristics together (Go, stop & Corner) and we;re talking ROAD use here, and a back to back test on 15's then 19's in this car for some people would show up the disadvantages.


Fitting a Mid engined Tyre set to a front engined car will of course change the balance,

255's are overkill on the rear and 205 front too narrow for those that "Push hard" normal driving should be fine and present no issues. If the Push driver wants to rid the understeer change the rears to 205 wide tyres then you'll reduce the understeer.

R

Surely the answer is "it depends".... I don't fancy 205 rears on a turbo for example.. (also not on 8.5/9J rims). But you do appear to be acknowledging that wider & lower profile tyres will give you more, not less, grip.

Stop being so dogmatic. There isn't just one true path to enlightenment. For example, I'm a fan of square setups on 944's but that isn't "factory" on most models.

You just need to ignore your extreme examples - 21" on 993 for example, and look at the subtler effects within the normal range.

Some 944 17" wheels/tyre sets are lighter than the corresponding 16's. (But then, why not use 15's?...)

As I've written before, we can and should appreciate the diversity of applications and configurations within the transaxle platform without trying to proclaim one "the best" or "the fastest".





 
Remember that the 951 was developed on 4x7" wheels, too. This is why the original MY86 wheels have a 951 part# prefix and clear the brakes. MY87>s don't and have a 944 part#.
 
Surely the answer is "it depends".... I don't fancy 205 rears on a turbo for example.. (also not on 8.5/9J rims). But you do appear to be acknowledging that wider & lower profile tyres will give you more, not less, grip.


laterial Yes, but with side effects.

That's why Porsche went (Staggered) wider rim and Tyre on the 951 (having previously has a square set up for almost 10 years) so that the balance with more power remained as understeer, the wider rears have a slower slip angle than the fronts due to their wider contact patch, so lateral loads (Cornering) the rear will not slip first but the front will.

But when any axle does slide it releases quicker and more sudden on low profile tyres than Higher progressive ones, which is harder to catch. Hence it's safer than a front tyre slides more progressively first before a rear does suddenly for
your average road user.

There is the factor that front & rear tyres also need to each cope with different functions (Front : grip when Turned and for braking) and the rear (traction & Braking all without no turning) Too wider a front tyre can be difficult to turn in crisp as there's too much scrub from the wider contact patch, as a contrast think how easy the longer patch narrow tyres turn, it's more difficult these days to feel because everything is power assisted...

The early model 951 had 7x16 205/55/16 and 8x16 225/50/16 the skinnier fronts when pushed hard will "tuck in" and head towards a positive camber situation and slide before the rears will, which is what Porsche want for Joe blogs.

For those who want to eradicate the excessive understeer, you could go bigger front but it's not the front that's the problem, and besides the 7" 205 front works and "turns in" very well, so you could change the rears to 7x16 and 205/55/16.

But this is frowned upon because some people think the rear needs to be wide because it's rear wheel drive and if they went narrower it would wheelspin, (which is not true) not to mention the "Look" wouldn't look right would it?

But I've built a lightweight powerful car unyet it wears 7x16 and 205/55/16 on all 4 corners and the handling & control in all 3 planes is the best I've experienced so far from any transaxle (924 / 944 / 968 / 928).
It's perfectly balanced @ 252kg each corner, and unyet has no wheelspin, braking or cornering grip issues, quite the reverse.

I've not fitted wide rims and tyres on purpose (Because it would be slower, not handle as well as it does & harder to drive) all based on my research and testing done over a 14 year span, on all 3 models and with wheels from 15" to 18" diameter on 8 transaxles (924 + 944+ 968) all tested for Road conditions (Not track)

I've also had all the track (Width) variants the early 944 (Short wishbone / low offset) and the later 944 (longer wishbone / higher offset) and also the Evo3 bodyshape (968) which I found was quicker with narrower wheels and tyres.

In 2012 I picked what I saw as the best chassis & Body of the bunch to throw 25K at, the narrow bodied 924 in S guise.
Not the wider track 944, because the narrower track widths feel better to me, the body has less drag the wheelbase to track ratio is longer for better stability, and it "turns in" quicker than the early model or the later model 944 & 968

When Porsche made the early 944's they somewhat disappointedly didn't change the suspension to move the wheel out to meet the wider arches instead they changed the wheel offset to Et23 so that the wheel was in line with the arch.

They did rectify this on the later Oval dash models when the offset went back to the ET50's but they made the wishbone longer (Wider) which changes the strut angle / motion ration and from all the models I've owned and modified I prefer the original Skinny track width / offsets and strut angle.

I spent 10 years Racing in a sport where you can and do constantly change the track widths, tyre pressures and chassis stiffness etc.. Once you have the template and understand correctly what's happening with balance and handling, and most importantly what can be done to make changes to win races, it's addictive and Fun to have an advantage against those that don't understand. Call it a very competitive edge!

Some 944 17" wheels/tyre sets are lighter than the corresponding 16's. (But then, why not use 15's?...)

I agree I would use 15's but the Wilwood 6 Piston calipers foul them, so I had to go 16 and then I went about lightening them to get close to the 15" weight.

I prefer a Formula 1 set up: Small Diameter wheel / Big sidewall tyre

With lots of compliance and movement in the tyre but stiffness in the chassis / suspension with less travel. I've found stiff suspension, reduced rideheight + Stiff Tyres (Low profile) is too much for the Road because it's less controllable, Tyres come off the floor, it's skitty and less compliant. which is why I was happy to see F1 also decided against 18" Wheels for the same issues I'd experienced and it like many car enthusiasts were only contemplating the change to improve the "look".


As I've written before, we can and should appreciate the diversity of applications and configurations within the transaxle platform without trying to proclaim one "the best" or "the fastest".

Yes, but I cannot lie and agree on something that is clearly not the case.

R
 
944 man said:
Remember that the 951 was developed on 4x7" wheels, too. This is why the original MY86 wheels have a 951 part# prefix and clear the brakes. MY87>s don't and have a 944 part#.



Really ? The 951 was developed on 7x16" Et23 cast Teledial rims but then when produced the rears were 8" ?
The later 951's had the longer wishbones and Et50's offsets with forged 7" & 8" wheels.

R

 
924Srr27l said:
944 man said:
Remember that the 951 was developed on 4x7" wheels, too. This is why the original MY86 wheels have a 951 part# prefix and clear the brakes. MY87>s don't and have a 944 part#.



Really ? The 951 was developed on 7x16" Et23 cast Teledial rims but then when produced the rears were 8" ?
The later 951's had the longer wishbones and Et50's offsets with forged 7" & 8" wheels.

R
Yes, really. It was sold on 16" wheels. I have forgotten more than you know Roger and the above post shows what a know-it-all you are.

Now blocked. Clown.
 
944 man said:
924Srr27l said:
944 man said:
Remember that the 951 was developed on 4x7" wheels, too. This is why the original MY86 wheels have a 951 part# prefix and clear the brakes. MY87>s don't and have a 944 part#.



Really ? The 951 was developed on 7x16" Et23 cast Teledial rims but then when produced the rears were 8" ?
The later 951's had the longer wishbones and Et50's offsets with forged 7" & 8" wheels.

R
Yes, really. It was sold on 16" wheels. I have forgotten more than you know Roger and the above post shows what a know-it-all you are.

Now blocked. Clown.



Your Stinky attitude is not welcome pal.

I know it was sold on Staggered 7x16 +8x16" rims, but I wasn't aware the car was developed on 7x16" wheels,

Why did they do this?

R
 
924Srr27l said:
In 2012 I picked what I saw as the best chassis & Body of the bunch to throw 25K at,


Rather like walking into your local boozer and slapping your 10 inch wanger on the bar and saying "cop a gawp at that bad boy lads". You just don't do it.
 
Re: Posting non helpful comments:

Probably the same reason you do - at least his reply was short :)

Thought I'd put my big wooden stirring spoon away for the night but just found it again.

And to think that the forum was getting a little stale; first Saratoga-gate and now Roger the subtle hint dodger brings joy to every thread. As mentioned above - the church of the transaxle has a broad spread in its flock and for every modified Turbo there's a painstakingly original Lux - horses for courses and no-one is right or wrong.

Until now . . . when everyone is wrong because they don't agree with you.

And for what it's worth, I read through your website and admired your dedication to your car. In absolute honesty I'm very surprised you went down the route you have and the costs you've incurred seem to be for ever decreasing gains but that's your prerogative and whatever makes you happy. I also struggle to accept the opinion of someone who steadfastly refuses to accept the opinions and knowledge of others far more experienced. I also love (absolutely bloody love with all my heart) that you hold up the wishes of the engineers and their knowledge of load based physics above all else but yet your profile picture shows you've drilled big holes in the structural parts of a set of alloys!

I cant wait for a register trackday in 2017 . . .


 
Interesting technical discussion both unsprung weight and gyroscopic effects are certainly come into play. We've noticed that some race 944's have gone for the bigger fronts in particular, but weather conditions can change the dynamic. We run the standard D90 set-up (nicely tarted up in Ducati red by Roger) and whilst our dry track grip is not the best, in wet weather we seem to have an advantage?
6oHTSxSIzhQ3-ro6Ur7faqmPEuHMjvNsM6Pm6eiW77VBWAi7PJNS-MM31mBaiPwdEWM2XHEz5vk=w1280-h800-rw-no

 
Eldavo[/b]
Posting non helpful comments:
Probably the same reason you do


I realise it may be upsetting and these facts for some are seen as unhelpful? because many people have not only invested a lot of money in large wheels and tyres but they adore the looks and are adamant their car drives quicker and on rails etc..but I'm only reiterating the facts and it's not something I've just made up!

Ferdinand Porsche & Colin Chapman would back the details up if they were alive!

The very first Post on the Golf test is nothing to do with me, but clearly illustrates how much slower the car was when fitted with Heavier wheels, sure there were some gains but these are very small and do not outweigh the downsides.

Eg: If wider heavy wheels corner 0.06G more than lighter narrow ones this gain will not benefit a car when the lighter wheeled car is already 1 second further down the road from the traffic lights.

Do a search (Google) on unsprung weight, "heavy wheels" and also why wider tyres don't mean more grip etc..In recent times due to all the economic efficiency paths manufactures are spending a lot of money to make modern cars more lighter because their masses were escalating.


my big wooden stirring spoon... just found it again.


Yes it's pretty clear many people continue to add fuel to what they see as a debate and not a discussion which is a shame, but Human nature I guess.

Some seem to take this subject of the adverse effects of Heavier wheels personal and then lower the tone by swearing, throwing personal insults and generally being rude which normally means their use of provocative and confrontational language clearly lacks understanding of the topic.


The church of the transaxle has a broad spread in its flock and for every modified Turbo there's a painstakingly original Lux - horses for courses and no-one is right or wrong. when everyone is wrong because they don't agree with you.

Sure, you get disagreements everywhere, you have to look at the mess the UK and USA are in Politically!
However the information I've written on the technical reasons on heavy wheels and the different shaped contact patches are given facts, they are not up for being wrong just because somebody says there car is planted.


And for what it's worth, I read through your website and admired your dedication to your car. In absolute honesty I'm very surprised you went down the route you have and the costs you've incurred seem to be for ever decreasing gains but that's your prerogative and whatever makes you happy.

Yes I was surprised also how the routes of 3.5 years panned out from started as a stock 924 first fitted with Kevlar seats, then things escalated more and more to the extent they have. Everything has made INCREASING gains,nothing has been left on the table and virtually every component on the car has been changed, modified, lightened, or restored etc.. all for performance benefits to go, brake and corner faster on public roads.


I also struggle to accept the opinion of someone who steadfastly refuses to accept the opinions and knowledge of others far more experienced.

This is impossible to quantify from such public blind discussions, how can any member know what other people know ? and have done in their careers and lives ? I've not seen any pecking order or rules that there is a HEAD member than one must all bow to? Everybody is an expert on their own opinions on a forum, even factual information can still be dismissed as we've seen here continuously.


I also love that you hold up the wishes of the engineers and their knowledge of load based physics above all else but yet your profile picture shows you've drilled big holes in the structural parts of a set of alloys!

Yes based on a 20% sprung Mass reduction, and a 18% unsprung loss the cup wheels were cut and drilled
accordingly..

I cant wait for a register trackday in 2017 . . .

Yes I like a spot of competition, but this car was not built for the track or at this point of time will it probably
go on track again, or be raced (I had considered the thought)

It's too good and valuable to risk making a mess of it, (30K agreed insurance value) so it's a ROAD car.


R

 

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