Early911.co.uk - RSR replica's

smtk · Mar 11, 2007

Hi
I was looking over Nick Moss' website and sore the lime green RSR he was recreating.
http://www.early911.co.uk/html/2_8-rsr-replica.html

I was thinking of getting a 997GT3 which would involve selling my 993TT. However I really like the 1970's pork and realised that I could get a RS/R replica for the difference need to get the GT3 But I have a lot of questions so I'll fire them away at you;
How much does the one in the link above cost and does that include the donor car?
Do these cars run on Unleaded?
Upon starting a journey what are the chances of actually finishing it?
Mot, Tax and insurance where does one stand?
How long does it take to make one? under 3months? (I have an event in mind)
Security? How do you stop some one from stealing it?

Now for the tricky part. Forget laps times and 10ths of seconds if you were to compare one of those rsr replicas to a modern GT3 which gives the driver the biggest grin I'm talking purely driver reward and theatrics. In my worse nightmare the replica would lack poke, sloppy steering, ropey gear box and needing constant fiddling to get it running. What I'm hoping for is a 911 go kart, sharp turn in, sprightly, big grin factor and theatre something where I can hone my driving skills.

Nick I have seen on the forum you take a 993rs to the track, why is this?

Lastly and please don't lynch me I wouldn't mind a few creature comforts to make the car liveable such as;
Windows that roll down
AC (possible?)
CD player for those long road trips
Xenon's (can't live with out them now)
Cigarette lighter for power
Carpets
930 Brakes

Would these be possible? I'm all for modern improvements batteries etc to make the car easier to live with.

In regards to price I could spend 40 to 45 however one can get a 964rs for 35ish and everyone tells me replicas aren't a sound investment. So is it madness or not?
Thanks

pmjt · Mar 11, 2007

Hi [

] Glad you found your way over here....

ORIGINAL: smtk
How much does the one in the link above cost and does that include the donor car?

I'll let Nick answer that as he's finished off 'SWT' for a customer - however I'd reckon between £40k and £48k depending on how accurate you want to be - things like fibreglass wings etc., reduce the cost.

ORIGINAL: smtk
Do these cars run on Unleaded?

It depends on the engine you put in it [

] Presuming you used an 'early 911' engine as the base then they're quite happy on unleaded - I'm very lucky to still be able to buy leaded locally - but at £1.59 per litre ([

]) I tend to run one tank of leaded to three or four of unleaded - Porsche designed these engines to run on very low grade fuel in parts of Europe and the US so they're quite happy.

ORIGINAL: smtk
Upon starting a journey what are the chances of actually finishing it?

Well, I drove from here (North Yorkshire) to Le Mans and back without a hiccup [

] A lot comes down to a) how well the car has been prepared - and all the gremlins sorted - but this should be done on a restoration / build up as a replica and b) how well it's looked after - you're forever doing 'something' on these old cars - yesterday we had to fiddle with an indicator bulb contact that had got covered in grease - two minutes with the white spirit and a pair of pliars and it was sorted - but don't expect a 35+ year old car to be like a new one - they're always needing small jobs doing - and they're very much 'work in progress' - which is the joy of owning them [

]

ORIGINAL: smtk
Mot, Tax and insurance where does one stand?

As with any car - an MOT is required - so if building up a replica you can't go to the full extent of original race madness (open header exhausts!) but there should be no problems. As for tax, if it's pre 1972 then you're free [

] As for insurance, most of the specialist classic insurers understand that a replica is worth more than the donor car and less than an original!

ORIGINAL: smtk
How long does it take to make one? under 3months? (I have an event in mind)

Very unlikely - as I've said before, how far do you want to go? Starting with a solid donor car, needing no shell work (and that's a HUGE assumption as the motivation for building up a replica often comes from wanting to make good a donor shell) I'd bargain on four to six months for the shell work and paint, then you've got the build up - provided you can find the parts, something like two months - then you've the problem of what are you going to do for the engine and transmission? Use stock parts? A bit sad if you're going to the hassle of building up a rep body - and engine builders are expensive and usually booked up well in advance.

To be honest - I'd allow nine months to a year.

ORIGINAL: smtk
Security? How do you stop some one from stealing it?

As with a modern car - imobiliser, tracker and be careful where you park it [

]

ORIGINAL: smtk
Now for the tricky part. Forget laps times and 10ths of seconds if you were to compare one of those rsr replicas to a modern GT3 which gives the driver the biggest grin I'm talking purely driver reward and theatrics. In my worse nightmare the replica would lack poke, sloppy steering, ropey gear box and needing constant fiddling to get it running. What I'm hoping for is a 911 go kart, sharp turn in, sprightly, big grin factor and theatre something where I can hone my driving skills.

An old car suffers from the lack of thirty years of engineering evolution [

] so it'll never ever drive as a modern - nowhere even close. But for those of us who run these things, the joy of ownership is being transported back to the time when they were made that way.

As I said on 911UK - if you're looking for a modern car - buy a modern car, you'll be happier - if you want a classic - NOT just in looks but with the power, handling and braking of the period car - then go classic.

ORIGINAL: smtk
Lastly and please don't lynch me I wouldn't mind a few creature comforts to make the car liveable such as;
Windows that roll down

I think you've a very poor view of older cars - Porsche windows work perfectly - if you're refering to the lexan windows in the viper green replica - that's just an interpretation of the original and completely optional.

ORIGINAL: smtk
AC (possible?)

Not a wise idea on an older engine - try 'backdating' a newer car like a 3.2 or a 964 if you want these creature comforts - 1970's airconditioning wasn't very clever [8|]

ORIGINAL: smtk
CD player for those long road trips

You can put anything in - but why bother? You won't hear it over the engine and exhaust if you're building an RSR rep! [

] The idea is to listen to the sweet music of the flat six speaker system in the back [

]

ORIGINAL: smtk
Xenon's (can't live with out them now)

Provided the electrics are sorted out and designed to cope with the current draw, there are several HID systems that drop in.

ORIGINAL: smtk
Cigarette lighter for power

Not difficult

ORIGINAL: smtk
Carpets

Southbound Motor Trimmers in Stockbridge can source most original copy items.

ORIGINAL: smtk
930 Brakes

I'd need others to chip in here - but I think you need to go to non-period 16" wheels in order to fit these - I believe SC calipers are a drop in replacement.

ORIGINAL: smtk
Would these be possible? I'm all for modern improvements batteries etc to make the car easier to live with.

Why would you want these though? If what you want is a modern car made to look classic - then Paul Stephens PS Autoart cars are just this - take a reliable modern(ish) donor and make it look 'old' - it's personal taste - but for many, the point of these old cars is to enjoy the experience they gave when new.

ORIGINAL: smtk
In regards to price I could spend 40 to 45 however one can get a 964rs for 35ish and everyone tells me replicas aren't a sound investment. So is it madness or not?

Yup - there's never any logic in doing things justified by the heart [

]

Try getting out and have a ride in some older cars - see if they're your thing - if you're undecided about a classic or a 964RS (which is a classic in it's own right [

]) then try a trip out in an older car - they may not be what you're looking for.

HTH

Philip

Bertroex · Mar 11, 2007

Hello and welcome to the forum,

ORIGINAL: smtk
How much does the one in the link above cost and does that include the donor car?

It all depends on whether you want to have LHD or RHD for racing purposes; having had a LHD and now a RHD and with a 1.89cm frame I sit a little bit more centered in a LHD. Regarding donor car: http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120094207232&fromMakeTrack=true

That is a 2.7 litre 1976 coupe which was converted with 930 type turbo arches. It will need suspension, brakes and a hot engine as well as yanking all the soundproofing and the comfy bits but it could provide a basis. (All the caveats apply re: expert looking over it before purchase, any accident damage and what not). YOu might be able to find a project that has been abandoned in the UK and you could tailor it to your requirements.

ORIGINAL: smtk
Upon starting a journey what are the chances of actually finishing it?

Well, as with any old porsche that either came out of a resto or that was laid up, best is to go through all the obvious things such as negative earth straps, change all the filters, dizzy cap, rotor arms, plug leads, a 12.000 mile service, perhaps overhaul the brake calipers etc etc etc. Then have 2 break down subscriptions (one with your classic car insurance and one with either the AA or RAC) and drive drive drive the thing. It might be that the coil gives up, the CDI box caves in, the wiper mechanism fails, a front wheel bearing collapses (if it hasnt been changed) the high beam stalk stays put on high beam etc etc.

BUT.... the engineering standard of these porsches is very high and fairly reliable. If the car has been set up by a reputed specialist, you can be fairly sure it will perform as a swiss watch.

So, be perhaps a bit wary in the beginning but start putting the miles on.

ORIGINAL: smtk
Mot, Tax and insurance where does one stand?

The classic car insurance, with a limited mileage sometimes stipulated, will be significantly cheaper than insuring a 997 GT3

ORIGINAL: smtk
Now for the tricky part. Forget laps times and 10ths of seconds if you were to compare one of those rsr replicas to a modern GT3 which gives the driver the biggest grin I'm talking purely driver reward and theatrics. In my worse nightmare the replica would lack poke, sloppy steering, ropey gear box and needing constant fiddling to get it running. What I'm hoping for is a 911 go kart, sharp turn in, sprightly, big grin factor and theatre something where I can hone my driving skills.

With an older 911, you will find all what you are looking for but it won't be as pin sharp as the latest cars. Also, these period cars are vehicles that require you to learn how to get the best out of it. As past Porsche racing successes have indicated, once properly set up, these cars will perform time and time again exactly how you want it. But the challenge is trying to find what you need and how you want it.

The attraction with the older cars for me is the feedback, the noise, the hot temperatures in a coupe, the relative difficult handling, the requirements put on the driver to quickly calculate and anticipate how to best take that curve etc etc

They give you a damn good work out, both physically and mentally. Much more satisfying than any other modern car. Ah, antoher thing, these old cars don't tend to be more clever then you are with: no PSM, no ABS, no fly by wire: just physics and noise and smell and sweat.

Best of luck,

Bert

smtk · Mar 11, 2007

Thanks for answering my questions

Does nick still have the gulf blue replica he made if he does I think I'll pop down and ask for a ride. See if it's like I imagined (like this video montage I made)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iT7rwAdMgFw

Nick Moss · Mar 11, 2007

Thanks guys for answering all the questions!

The price for a replica depends on how close you want to get to the original. Any early 911 motr rebuilt to twin spark specs with new barrels, pistons, cam etc, rebuilt MFI and a 12 plug dizzy is going to cost £15 - £20K. The donor car, by the time it is stripped, painted, with rebuilt suspension, brakes etc is going to be £20K - £30K plus arches, front oil cooler, Turbo brakes etc. Wheels alone can be £8K if you want 9" and 11" x 15 Fuchs, which fit fine over Turbo or even 964 calipers

A good place to start could be a late 80s Carrera 3.2 Superspot, it already has the arches and Turbo brakes, probably has just a small amount of rust (I haven't seen a pre 89 car that hasn't got structural rust) can be bought for around £15K and backdated with GRP front and rear bumpers and bonnet, repainted and built for about £10K. You will have all the creature comforts of the 3.2 with A/C if you can find one, plus electric windows, seats, CD etc. but it will still weigh the same as a GT3 with 150 hp less

I have tracked by 87 Turbo 3.3 and my 993RS recently. The Turbo is a real handfull and moves around a lot, and when it lets go the spin can be monumental. The 993RS is a pussycat in comparison, and even quicker. Both have phenominal brakes and roadolding, its the on the limit handling that really separates them and shows where 30 years of development went. The GT3/RS moves on to yet another level of braking and acceleration.

The Mexico Blue 3.0 RS rep is long gone I'm afraid.

oliver · Mar 11, 2007

IMO the best bed-fellows are a modern (water-cooled?) 911 and a classic/early 911 [8D].

You can then pick and choose what takes your fancy for any given trip.

The newer cars are so 'multi-task' usable, that they can deliver guaranteed fun, practicality and comfort come rain or shine.

But the early cars are very special and, for the real 911 enthusiast, the involvement, the delicacy and the shear buzz they can deliver is hugely rewarding. They transport you back into an era when life was simpler and cross country drives can be enjoyed at semi-sensible speeds. You don't need aircon, you open the window and the old fashioned quarter-lights prevent buffeting.

Only a personal opinion, but I would much prefer an 'original' and 'correct' early 911 than a 'hybrid' replica.

But don't entirely dismiss the new 997GT3. It is probably the most 'complete' driver's 911 ever - go-kart handling, phenomenal performance, totally addictive and yet civilised enough to use everyday. And, running one new Porsche is a lot less expensive than two older ones (residuals aside) [&:].

Alex Postan · Mar 12, 2007

ORIGINAL: Bertroex

just physics and noise and smell and sweat.

Bert

Bert, my 2.7 doesn't break into a sweat, not even a glow!
What do you do with your cars?[

]

Helen Goff · Mar 12, 2007

if you've ever been out on a drive with Bert you wouldn't need to ask. ......................rabbits beware!![

][

]

Bertroex · Mar 12, 2007

I wanted to come up with an answer to Alex but the picture totally disarmed me [

][

], Helen.

Well, I like a car with feedback and noise and and and. Mostly I drive with the roof off as well, even in a drizzle and if I would win the lottery I'd seriously contemplate a 1938 lagonda V12 le mans as my daily driver.

I have a bad back but I'm only 32- That porsche is allowing me to get the max out of my driving experience within my budget and for as long as I can walk [

].

I had a 997 Carrera S and a Caymen S for a day and I can really empathise with the comfort and the luxuries and the easyness of how they go about munching the miles. But, these torsion bar 911's are a constant challenge; they do not just go about their business they require you to work with them. In the majority of the cases it's one heck of a team and that I find rather attractive[

]

Bert

Helen Goff · Mar 12, 2007

well i have owned loads of diffrent porsches and done miles and miles in them but i find i get far more out of driving the older cars as you don't have to drive at speeds that endanger your leicence in order to FEEL like your driving.

for me even my beloved slantnose turbo was just too tame (boring) at normal road speeds. unless it was taken on track...a luxary which which is way beyond my budget.

i'm not saying oldc ars are slow (they are not), i'm saying that the sort o buzz i got from driving the slantnose at 130+ mph, i can get from the 911 or 914 at far lower (safer to my leicence)speeds.

i guess it all to do with just howmuch YOU like to drive or how much you like the car to drive for you.....just my humble opinion.[:-]

smtk · Mar 12, 2007

ORIGINAL: Helen Goff

i'm not saying oldc ars are slow (they are not), i'm saying that the sort o buzz i got from driving the slantnose at 130+ mph, i can get from the 911 or 914 at far lower (safer to my leicence)speeds.

Thats exactly what i was hoping for

Now does any one know of a Black or White supersport in good condition for £15k? I found a red one but it means a bigger repaint and I want to buy it this week!

Helen Goff · Mar 13, 2007

have you looked on the impact bumper forum ? www.impactbumpers.com

Lightweight_911 · Mar 13, 2007

Don't know whether you're considering Targas or just coupes but have you seen this ad ?:

http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/144286.htm

Bertroex · Mar 14, 2007

Andy,

that targa is labelled as a supersport but by the looks it is a "sports equipment" only, i.e. no turbo brakes, turbo fuchs and turbo wheelarches.

I know that there are a number of cognoscenty who don't bat an eyelid welding a coupe roof on a targa shell and thus ending up with a nicely reinforced race car but for these purposes it is probably complicating matters.

This is a carrera Turbo look targa which was known under its official name
from model year 1984 until My1986: carrera with Turbo look
Model year 1986 only: Carrera with Sport Equipment (the non turbo look was labelled for that year as 911 with sport pack)
My 1987 onwards: Carrera Super Sport

http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/141287.htm

Best regards,

Bert

smtk · Mar 14, 2007

A targa will just add headaches shame there loads of nice black ones about

Can you tell me of this is the right super sport?

It says its a 1986 Supersport

Keith Calder · Mar 14, 2007

yes thats a supersport, or buy my turbo and swop the wheels and bumpers....
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/114729.htm

Bertroex · Mar 15, 2007

By the looks of it, it is a tubo bodied 3.2 carrera. If it was a factory delivery and not some after market turbo look, then there are high chances that it is indeed a 3.2 carrrera with a turbo look, inclusive of:

Ripped from Peter Morgan: "The original 911"
turbo's flared front and rear wheel wings, tea-tray wing and front spoiler extension. The turbo suspension and brakes-including perforated discs and 917 type brake calipers- were used without change, as where 7 and 9 j x16 front /rear wheels.
Cornerning was improved with a wider track, stiffer rear torsion bars and a softer rear anti-roll bar. Ride height dropped from 108mm to 94mm, ... extra weight of 50 kgs in comparison to the standard carrera ... top speed approx 12 mph slower

HTH and good luck,

Bert

smtk · Mar 15, 2007

Thanks you guys have been alot of help

smtk · Mar 20, 2007

Threw rain, sleet, wind and snow. I drove down to early911 to check out the Supersport donor car that will be used to make my RSR replica.

The supersport is a tad louder than my turbo on idle, the steering is bloody heavy compared to my TT (No 1 handed 3 pointers then). The gearbox felt a little vague (I think the throw was to long) and no ABS makes you think about how hard one breaks. I only poodled around the farmyard It was very greasy on the local roads and I didn't know where I was going so thought better of it. Still the car is very sound and I'm sure once its done (and I adjust the seat correctly) it will be a trill to drive and a GT3 eater on the track

It will be around 3 weeks till Nick starts on the car and he's promised to photograph it at every stage. You I'll be updating this thread as the mile stones are reached. And I'll keep things like colour a surprise for later! (It's not red)

Below are some photos of the SS with my TT behind

The following parts will be sold off once work starts
Front bumper
Front wings
Front Bonnet
The whole interior more or less
Carpets
Rear wing
Rear bumper
The rear wheels (there the 9inch ones)
And some items off the engine