First track day (PCGB @ Donington Park) completed!

[ralphmusic]

Hmm, from the Club’s website Trackday page..

Wherever possible we run an ‘open pit lane’ policy and will also limit the number of overall entrants. Smaller numbers increase the opportunity for time on track, reduce the time spent waiting and ease the pressure of traffic on the circuit for improved safety and enjoyment.

 

[geoff lane]

More cars on the day than ideal probably because of covid and lack of events in the past 18 months.

Far too many cars on track made it difficult to get any flow with the fast cars catching up and then when you pull over not only the fast cars go past but 3 or 4 slower cars that you then have to try and catch and overtake again. A bit frustrating and something mentioned by quite a lot I spoke with so I think its safe to say there were too many cars.

It was 3 years since I last did a trackday and it took a while to get back into it, but had a great day with my son, proper father and son bonding.

I was a bit unsure if I had gone past the track day scene before yesterday with such a long interval due to selling one GT4 and waiting for the next and then covid but enjoyed the day more and more as time went on, one thing I had forgotten was the friendship and camaraderie, meeting up with familiar faces which for me really made the day. It does not take a lot for some of us old guys .[]

Going back a few years to when I was doing more track days I cannot remember having to queue as much to get on track as yesterday usually in my experience the afternoon session was a lot better with a lot of folk going early to mid afternoon but that was not really noticeable yesterday.

Still a good day out, which yellow GT4 was yours ?

 

[Twinfan]

Hi Geoff - I saw your car and meant to come over and say hello but with having a couple of friends with us for the day it was tricky to slope off!

I was in Garage 7 in the yellow 718 GT4 on a private plate, I think it was the only one on track. The other yellow GT4 was a modded 981.

 

[Twinfan]

Hmm, from the Club’s website Trackday page..

Wherever possible we run an ‘open pit lane’ policy and will also limit the number of overall entrants. Smaller numbers increase the opportunity for time on track, reduce the time spent waiting and ease the pressure of traffic on the circuit for improved safety and enjoyment.

The number was limited, but at too high a number in my opinion. It seems I'm in no way alone with that view!

 

[Brian_Innes]

David,

Enjoyed reading your report on your Donnington track day experience. A circuit I have experienced with 718 Cayman 2.5 S 4-pot. You had the correct approach having tuition in the afternoon. Not only quieter with traffic, but also giving you time to acclimatise yourself to your 982 GT4 on the track. Your comments on it being a learning curve are perfectly understandable, especially with keeping an eye on your mirrors for faster traffic. I also agree with your comments about being hassled into corners with faster following traffic looking for the smallest gap to nip through. Old racing drivers never die, so best to give them space and let them go.

Knockhill, my "local " circuit is short at 1.4 miles and traffic always an issue. Similar situations as you describe occur on Sector 1 Duffus Dip to the Chicane exit. If you get caught by a faster car on the approach to Duffus Dip, the best plan is to do your own thing until after the chicane when the straight section comes around. The same applies to the run downhill through Craner Curves to the Old Hairpin. Interrupting your flow at that section is not good. The cars behind should be patient and wait until after the hairpin before shooting past on the following short straight sections.

On these technical short circuits where local knowledge and track driving skills are to the fore, I found my 718 Cayman GTS 2.5t catching GT3 and GT4 drivers who were perhaps a tad less experienced than myself. I never had any problems with slower cars giving way. If you catch up somebody quickly, and they are checking their mirrors properly, in my experience they give way at the soonest opportunity. On short circuits such as these, where technical ability is at premium, it is much more satisfying to maintain a flow in your driving. As you gain confidence both in yourself and your car, the lap times will tumble as natural consequence. When you start out on track days, having to constantly watch your mirrors and give way to faster traffic spoils the driving flow. It takes time and experince to fully enjoy a track day session. As one of the more experienced drivers, I always left my really hot laps until later in the afternoon when traffic was quieter.

I've done track days where groups are split into colour coded wrist bands for Novice, Intermediate, and Expert. It can work well provided you time your sessions according to the performance of the drivers and cars on the track at the time. Bear in mind not all experts drive GT cars. Some humble Caymans can be extraordinarily quick through twisty sections.

A very good report David. Keep learning, and all being well I should be at Oulton Park in October as a spectator.

Brian

 

[Twinfan]

I also agree with your comments about being hassled into corners with faster following traffic looking for the smallest gap to nip through. Old racing drivers never die, so best to give them space and let them go.

Knockhill, my "local " circuit is short at 1.4 miles and traffic always an issue. Similar situations as you describe occur on Sector 1 Duffus Dip to the Chicane exit. If you get caught by a faster car on the approach to Duffus Dip, the best plan is to do your own thing until after the chicane when the straight section comes around. The same applies to the run downhill through Craner Curves to the Old Hairpin. Interrupting your flow at that section is not good. The cars behind should be patient and wait until after the hairpin before shooting past on the following short straight sections.

Thanks Brian. The two bolded parts above sum up the paradox for me. Everyone pays the same price so unless the day is advertised as experienced only there should be a bit more give and take. It seems yesterday was possibly a bit of a one-off given the pent up demand due to recent restrictions, so a bit of a baptism of fire on my part I think!

 

[MrDemon]

I was going to sign on in the PM but the track was too full and way to slow, so did not bother. Just lines of cars 20 seconds off the pace, so I saved my money and went out with a few friends cars instead. Def over booked for the short track with 90+ cars. I can see why the faster cars did get fustrated because you could go 2 laps and no one moved over !!! there are 3.5 great safe over taking straights 2 long 1 short and then up starkeys bridge if the car infront allows it , so any done down craner was daft. but when people don't move then I guess this happens. I see a GT2 crashed the day before at Silverstone into a car on a bend !!! unforgivable driver should have a life time track day ban ! Both sides at Donnington at fault imo, selfish people thinking they can hold you up for 2 laps, when there are 4 places to let people by safe every lap, and ****s overtaking on craner ! It's why I gave them up and Sim race these days. some one can crash into you on a bend and they get away scot free. PCGB used to be only overtake the car in front if they indicate but when only 50% cars are doing this it's always going to be an issue for the other 50%. NO thanks, lucky had my fun back in 2000 era with circa 60+ track days when track days were higher standards imo. Again imo track days should be a track day license holders only which shows a level of skill to be allowed to even go on track , went to one the other day had 15 red flags !!! these are NOT one off now days to requote PH last post on the GT2 crash. "I experienced a potentially pretty similar scenario at Anglesey in May on a PCGB day where the standard of track driving varied enormously to put it mildly" thing is new money, new to fast cars and zero talent on track these days it seems. PCP era to blame imo.

 

[TDT]

Was a tricky day for a 1st timer, for sure, so totally understand you PoV, TwinFan.

There were too many cars for the National layout - But i do see it from both sides and people want to have the opportunity to attend the event and also the club wants to make money, particularly in uncertain times such as now.

Having an event with super low numbers might be good for the few - but are they willing to pay even more.. a 1/3 more or 1/2 more to ensure that club can cover the cost of hire with such low numbers? and then with such a big membership.. who will be the lucky few that get to go?

The main issue IMO is that people are not adhering to the rules on both sides.

Overtaking should be on the straights or safe overtaking zones only (not in a corner and not in braking), person being overtaken MUST lift a bit to allow the overtake to happen safely and quickly.

If we have overtaking by consent only... the person being overtaken MUST be observant enough to acknowledge the car behind and grant consent for the overtake at the next safe overtaking zone. (e.g as mentioned after old Hairpin is a good overtaking zone which isn't a typical straight..... through Craners is not!)

People doing the overtaking should recognise where they think they might catch the car in front and judge their pace accordingly so that when you arrive at the car in front - you can overtake quickly and safely and you don't have to set behind getting frustrating and effectively pushing someone into a mistake, and doing something rash yourself.

You can't expect the slower car to just vanish because you arrived, similarly, The slower person should not keep the quicker person behind them for several corners unnecessarily as this is when the trains develop.

Learning when to lift and slipstream back in was one of the best skills i've been able to pick up, that allowed me to run at my own pace and build a rhythm, without holding anyone else up. Car positioning is key, to get back on the line and claim the next corner(s) before allowing the next people through at the next overtaking zone... its just defensive driving skills and car/body language.

As i've built pace, I've learnt to try to look further and further ahead and anticipate my pace and when/where I might catch some one, so that I can plan the overtake to be safe and quick without a major disruption.

It isn't racing, and it is supposed to be fun... and club days will have a wide range of cars and drivers.

For club days, which are fun days, social, chit-chat, blah-blah - I tend to dial it back a bit and build pace as traffic get less.

If there is alot - then back off a little and just work on a sector at a time and have my fun that way... then hopefully later in the day, I can put some quicker full laps together based on learning earlier in the day.

As has been said... everyone has paid their money. Some want to go faster, some go slower... both can work together.

 

[Twinfan]

As always, wise words and a balanced view from yourself there T. I was very conscious of those behind me and always signalled/moved over/lifted, maybe a little too often if I'm honest and not always in the best places. I will certainly be a little more strict in the future for both safety and enjoyment reasons, but I wouldn't dream of holding someone up for a complete lap or more. That's just really poor form and shows poor observational skills or a bad attitude (naming no cars, but there were a few that I found were obstructive to me for sure!).

I personally feel the root cause was too many cars. Overtaking issues wouldn't arrive if the gaps between them were bigger/less often.

I also think with the Club's reserves they shouldn't be squeezing every last penny of profit out of a track day.

 

[Brian_Innes]

I concur with the comments posted by Mr D and TDT.

Track days are supposed to be a fun day out, it's not about racing. I have also noticed a change in driving standards in recent years. Some drivers are very slow compared to more experienced pilots, and it's not all about the car. The driver has to be constantly on the alert for faster drivers approaching from behind. Note I said faster "drivers" and not faster "cars". There are some very competent and quick drivers about on track days who do not necessarily drive the top performance models.

One piece of advice I'd give to track day newbies is to leave your ego behind in the garage or paddock when exiting the pit lane for the track. In my past experience some drivers of the higher performance models eg, Turbo, Turbo S, GT, and GTRS, are reluctant to give way to a well driven lesser Cayman for example. Pride takes over and they hold their line for corner after corner, then floor it down the straight only to be caught up again under braking and entering the twisty bits.

I would suggest the club make a track day school video available online incorporating car prep, safety advice, flags, and track etiquette. As track days have become more popular it's inevitable that variable driving standards are coming into focus. When I started out on PCGB track days it was mainly the experienced motorsport driver who attended. That's not the case today, with many new owners to the Porsche brand having little experience of high cornering speeds and braking distances.

Maybe it's time to review the enrolment entry lists for some track days, in common with private commercial track day operators who already have a selective entry policy based on the car (race or road), and the track driving experience of the participant. Track day sessions for both novices, and experienced with a "track day licence" issued with signatures or a club stamp awarded for each event attended. Bad or dangerous driving behaviour would result in penalties or a ban.

Food for thought perhaps.

Brian

 

[Twinfan]

I guess the flip side of that coin, Brian, is that the "experienced motor sport driver" or anyone else pushing to the maximum should take up racing to get their kicks? Otherwise you're essentially creating an exclusive club for those deemed worthy. Very stereotypical Porsche if you look at it from an outside point of view!

It's interesting how much discussion this has prompted - clearly there's no ideal solution other than everyone has to respect everyone else []

 

[Wollemi]

Very interesting thread, and echoes what I found at my two visits (2017 and 2018) to the PCGB trackday at Donington. On those visits found the behaviour and courtesy to other drivers far worse there than at any other PCGB trackday - I thought I’d just been unlucky. I would certainly never recommend Donington for a first track day. I have no desire to go back there. In contrast the behaviour at Oulton, Cadwell, and Croft has been exemplary on the various times I’ve gone to those circuits. ( I had no issues at Anglesey, Snetterton or Silverstone either but only made single visits to those) What is it about Donington then?

Croft in June had, if anything, slightly too few cars. In the afternoon it was quite lonely out there!

Brian, the club does have a few videos already about trackday driving and also the MSV online briefing which you cannot avoid viewing is really quite comprehensive so it’s not lack of knowledge which makes people behave badly. Twinfan (Dave?) one thing you can do to make your life a little easier is to get your OPC to fill your tyres with dry nitrogen; they should do this free of charge. This will remove the need to let tyres down and pump them up again as they will not increase anything like as much as they get hot. On my car cold pressure is 2.4 all round, and hot road is 2.7. On track I might see 2.8 or 2.9 after 15-20 mins when they are really hot, at which point my PS4S tyres are getting quite squirmy and it’s time to come in an cool down anyway. Saves a bit of hassle. I’m hoping to be at Oulton Park in October. That’s a lovely circuit. It will be nice to see you there if you get down from Scotland, Brian.

 

[Twinfan]

Cheers Wollemi - I have considered giving nitrogen a go but forgot to look into it again. I'd forgotten about it!

 

[TDT]

Interesting comments the nitrogen.... I've had this done before when OPC have fitted tyres for me... they filled with Nitrogen - but didn't work so well for me on track on Cup 2. Pressures still went rocketing and then needed to bleed down.

Then when you refill at the end of the day, thats just air so you diffuse any Nitrogen that was remaining in the tyre and a end up with a slightly less stable mix of Nitrogen and Air.

Personally find normal air more consistent to deal with and pressures didn't jump around. Thats my experience anyway.

Back to starter days... not sure if you've seen them... but here are link to reports (on PistonHeads) for my first few track days in 2018 - all with PCGB.

[ul][*]1st time was afternoon session at Silverstone, where i just rocked up - paid on the day, and bought a helmet from the Club stand! there and then - wallet was in for a bit of a shock that day!.[*]2nd day was at Goodwood[*]3rd day was Donington - https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=48&t=1755931&i=0[/ul]I then did some other days in between and then

[ul][*]this was my report for PCGB Oulton Park - https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=48&t=1774867&i=0[/ul]

 

[ralphmusic]

An issue with the Club's Donington event is the combination of a rare noisy day (= faster cars can be brought out) and a Club day where the mix of experience is very wide. It is one of the few events where I would think Novice/Intermediate/Experienced sessions would be better.

The Craner Curves pass/no pass was bound to cause confusion. In the good old days, Steve's briefings were thorough if tedious with action on driving standards so perhaps moving to on-line briefings and a more relaxed approach doesn't work in all circumstances.

I am at my 2nd Brands Club trackday in a couple of weeks primarily because I'm in Kent with friends for the Festival. The only other time I have been there with the Club, we had a seven car convoy doing 50mph up to Druids behind a car that took until the Brabham Straight to move over - my expectations are set...

 

[TDT]

Good point about it being one of the few unrestricted days for noise also... although most of those running eligible race cars that i know have gone to LeMan this weekend.

 

[ralphmusic]

Good point about it being one of the few unrestricted days for noise also... although most of those running eligible race cars that i know have gone to LeMan this weekend.

They’d be the better drivers…

 

[MrDemon]

I guess the flip side of that coin, Brian, is that the "experienced motor sport driver" or anyone else pushing to the maximum should take up racing to get their kicks? Otherwise you're essentially creating an exclusive club for those deemed worthy. Very stereotypical Porsche if you look at it from an outside point of view!

It's interesting how much discussion this has prompted - clearly there's no ideal solution other than everyone has to respect everyone else []

To race a Gt4 for one season costs about 1/4 million ££££ thats A Tad more than a track day.

maybe the Donnington days = too many cars and it’s that simple.

but the fastest car (not driver) in his gt3 RS still put it in the kitty litter At snails pace.

I still think there needs to be a standard on track which means a track day test card to attend.

that’s not exclusive, it just makes sense and would be safer for every one. just the basics that you can drive on track at an ok speed, safe, know lines and will not get caught out with lift off over steer. Put it this way if some one laps in 1.50 minutes on Donny short then they should not be on track imo Go do PEC days Or driver traning.

maybe club days should be sessions now. And for total new comers have school days, the club can afford it with 14,000 members paying £65. Do 3 school days and pass you can do a club day.

 

[TDT]

And for total new comers have school days, the club can afford it with 14,000 members paying £65. Do 3 school days and pass you can do a club day.

I think this would be very welcome and a unique club offering. Club instructors can do a lead/follow and/or in car.

 

[Twinfan]

I think this would be very welcome and a unique club offering. Club instructors can do a lead/follow and/or in car.

Interesting idea, but would you get everyone to do it regardless of other experience? Where would you hold them to cover everyone in the UK from Northern Scotland to the South Coast? I can see current or ex-racers asking to be an exception which may or may not be the right thing to do. Same for the minimum lap time idea, what car(s) would that apply to? Would it change car to car? Who decides the limits etc? I don't think there's an easy solution otherwise someone would have already done it!