First track day (PCGB @ Donington Park) completed!

[Motorhead]

I don’t know if it’s still in place but at the Blyton track days (slightly different by being run by R4) if you were a novice or a first-timer at the circuit you had to have an instructor for your first time out on track. They then decided whether or not you were OK to go out on your own. Having said that, instruction was free but the principle could be applied to any track day, with the participant paying for at least one instruction session.

Just a thought. []

Jeff

 

[TDT]

I think this would be very welcome and a unique club offering. Club instructors can do a lead/follow and/or in car.

Interesting idea, but would you get everyone to do it regardless of other experience? Where would you hold them to cover everyone in the UK from Northern Scotland to the South Coast? I can see current or ex-racers asking to be an exception which may or may not be the right thing to do. Same for the minimum lap time idea, what car(s) would that apply to? Would it change car to car? Who decides the limits etc? I don't think there's an easy solution otherwise someone would have already done it!

I don't think you should have to do a minimum lap time... as that not necessarily the issue, and I don't think it should be mandatory.

But something like this could be offered as a trackday taster/prep for newcomers so that they already have some experience of the atmosphere and some of the speeds, if they like, so then when they come to do a full event, it's less intimidating.

[ul][*]It should be more about track day etiquette[*]Getting used to using the car on circuit - forces, speeds and braking... not coaching to go faster - just so that people know that the car can take it and it won't break.[*]How to overtake nicely[*]How to get overtaken without loosing momentum[/ul]In terms of coverage... they could run it during the lunch hour on the existing track days. So then you can choose one close to you.

Charge a nominal fee for the hour... £50 or so.

They can limit the number of slots - so then the instructors can jump in and then with radios, can coordinate who overtakes, who is being overtaken and between them they can manage the pace... and/or have a pace car.

You could say, just go to PEC... but reality, its tiny, expensive, and its nothing like a track day... as you can now probably attest to.

 

[TDT]

I don’t know if it’s still in place but at the Blyton track days (slightly different by being run by R4) if you were a novice or a first-timer at the circuit you had to have an instructor for your first time out on track. They then decided whether or not you were OK to go out on your own. Having said that, instruction was free but the principle could be applied to any track day, with the participant paying for at least one instruction session.

Just a thought. []

Jeff

Yep, this type of philosophy

 

[Twinfan]

All good stuff - I found that my scouting trip to Silverstone a couple of weeks ago was totally worth doing to prepare for Donington...

 

[OliR]

Spoken to you about it privately Dave but as I've said I think the number of cars makes a big difference, personally. I felt that at Silverstone just gone it was over booked, which resulted in a few questionable overtakes, track etiquette wasn't the best either which simply resulted in people getting frustrated too I think. The situation was much improved later in the day when the numbers on track had dropped, maybe only even by 15%.

The problem with the louder days with the high noise limits you're always going to get faster cars/race cars and the closing speed between the two can be huge at times. I don't mind it so much, would rather have that and fewer numbers, personally. I think this year we're seeing huge demand due to everyone being stuck at home the year prior, maybe things will calm down next year. A friend of mine also has a theory that lots of days are sold out with race teams testing as they haven't been able to get track time in what with lockdown and such.

I took my chances on an MSV "Road Car only" day at Oulton Park yesterday, with a 98 DbA static limit and 85 (though I suspect it was secretly higher) drive by limit and it was bloody brilliant. We ended up with about 26/27 cars, driving standards were excellent, I don't think there were many beginners which maybe helped, but everyone was incredibly courteous. Perhaps because you could go out and complete 5/6 laps without running into any traffic?

I was fortunate to be there with an ARDS Instructor and former racer Willie Green, coaching me and a friend for the day, and with the fewer numbers on track it was perfect for it. We were actually able to go out with Willie in a lead car while one of us followed, which I thought was a great way to learn. I will keep an eye out in the future for those days as the noise limit is mandated by the council it's either a "quiet day" or they shut the circuit.

I let Willie take me out in my GT4 with him driving for a few laps and that was quite a humbling experience. He professed that he was only driving at 8/10ths or so and didn't want to abuse the car as it wasn't his, but it was one hell of an eye opener! .... I have much to learn.

Edited to add, sadly the Track Precision App died when Willie was out there giving it the beans and I didn't get to record any of his driving [] that upset me greatly.

 

[MrDemon]

the answer in the past was sessions but every one hated it, I think it might be time sadly to have to bring sessions back to get the skilled drivers back to PCGB days.. Less time and you have to plan when to go out and 1 red flag ruins your session and you wait 2 hour for the next one ! , but you are out with people with the same skill levels.

20+ years ago a higher % people were fast who went to track days i would say it was 80%/20% , this is now not the case esp with PCGB, most of the faster guys don't do PCGB days anyway now because of that.

But on the whole they seem safer days and it's great to meet Porsche owners, def less red flags on PCGB days. Atm slower drivers are moaning about the faster drivers, and the faster drivers are moaning about the slower ones both pay the same money and want the best from the day, atm neither are happy.

I still think every one should be vetted and own a track day card in the industry though it's quite a dangerous hobby. again I stopped as I was fed up with slower drivers and 1st timers spinning down craner in front of me.

I am not saying I am the fastest driver, but I do have 60+ track days behind me and can drive to a level, always some one faster though esp when you got out with a Pro you realise we are just all crap lol

Donny is my local Track and book a track and Jonny ran it quite strict back in the day. Now you turn up to evening sessions and it's mayhem.

I also think track days should be MOT legal cars only on road legal tyres, not race cars on slicks getting cheap time on track vs MSA test days.

 

[OliR]

I'm not sure I'd enjoy a sessioned day as much MrD, I prefer to sort of come and go as I please. Feel like I'd miss out on track time potentially if I didn't stick to the session format (oh I've gone for fuel and missed a 20 min slot...). I would prefer fewer cars, personally. Number of cars, and driving standards are what makes or breaks the day for me I find. Why don't organisers publish the number of slots?

I know what you're saying about race cars though, hopefully it improves next year.

 

[Twinfan]

It's tricky with race cars, there only a couple at Donny and they were cars racing in the Club Championship. I think it's fair that they can use Club Track Days, personally.

I think more clarity on the overtaking rules to be followed, and adherance to them by all, plus a tighter control on overall numbers would be enough to ensure everyone gets a good day.

 

[MrDemon]

the issue is we all like different things, no one liked sessions but as I said there was no need for them as 80% people drove pretty fast. Now this is not the case, you have to plan yes but fill up with fuel when it's not your session that's bits easy.

I don't like doing more than about 100 miles so that's only 2 tanks, turn up with a full tank and fill up at dinner for me, then fill up on the way home.

GT4 981 was a bit worse as that does 5/6 mpg on track !!! I don't like no cars on track though ! for me I liked chasing down faster cars in slower cars that was my buzz, or going out with very fast guys to see their lines and trying to keep up etc.

going round seeing no cars is very dull after a while, nice for 5 or 6 laps to get a bench mark time but then a bit dull. Answer is less slots or sessions, it's proven 90 cars booked don't work well on a 1.30 track time, but does make for a nice meet up and chat. Or keep away from PCGB days if you are at a higher level, as I again said many faster guys have already taken that view but that's a shame imo.

 

[TDT]

The problem with sessions for all club track days is that you then need to categorise the drivers.

How will you do this?

[ul][*]Number of previous days?.... Doing something a lot doesn't mean you're doing it well![*]Speed/Laptime?.... means that you need to have timing to prove that you are quick enough to run with the quicker group, as subjectiveness alone might not be satisfactory. This will invalidate track day insurance as it now has the element of competitiveness implied, as people will naturally want to move up.[/ul]As has been said, numbers is a big part of it, and then just proper track day etiquette and defensive driving, takes care of the rest.

 

[MrDemon]

It's tricky with race cars, there only a couple at Donny and they were cars racing in the Club Championship. I think it's fair that they can use Club Track Days, personally.

I think more clarity on the overtaking rules to be followed, and adherance to them by all, plus a tighter control on overall numbers would be enough to ensure everyone gets a good day.

in 40 years of doing this, adherance to rules never works, the organisers are too busy and can only stand on the pit lane. it only takes one person to not look in their mirrors for 1/2 a lap , you have 15 cars in a line, and that's the issue in the main.

over taking should be by consent only to be safe, the car in front indatates right , that was the PCGB way and is the safest for every one.

2 main issues slow cars not looking in their mirrors, ave fast cars not throttling off down the straights, so the 15 car line up only 2 cars get by every straight !!! takes 5 laps to clear a line of 15 cars ! by which time 15 more have joined lol

 

[Twinfan]

Consent only overtakes is definitely a good way to police it, I was always really clear when I was moving over but not everyone was!

 

[MrDemon]

The problem with sessions for all club track days is that you then need to categorise the drivers.

How will you do this?

[ul][*]Number of previous days?.... Doing something a lot doesn't mean you're doing it well![*]Speed/Laptime?.... means that you need to have timing to prove that you are quick enough to run with the quicker group, as subjectiveness alone might not be satisfactory. This will invalidate track day insurance as it now has the element of competitiveness implied, as people will naturally want to move up.[/ul]As has been said, numbers is a big part of it, and then just proper track day etiquette and defensive driving, takes care of the rest.

it's worked in the past if you are slower but want to be in the fast group you stood out pretty fast and got a telling off as all the drivers would report it.

I am sure people know if they are slower or faster, and within an hour it's easy to spot the fakers.

issue is in the faster group you have BIGGER issues if you are in the top say 10% fastest there, as then every one thinks it's a race and still don't pull over so the top 10% still get stuck for 4 laps behind a ave fast driver to proud to move over in his Gt3RS WP R spec £250k trinket who has a bit of talent. I have seen it all. ended up getting a MSA NAT B test day licence and then was the slowest car on the track lol so that was the point I gave up I went out once and it was hell 4 a breast into every bend with race cars on slicks, me with no real race knowledge or rules. Tracks days over !! MSA NAT B licence tossed in the bin I did a few in my GT4 of course but did not really enjoy it the 2nd time round.

Hence a £10k sim rig to race on for me and that is quite exciting to really race real people bumper to bumper even if it's on a sim.

 

[TDT]

it's worked in the past if you are slower but want to be in the fast group you stood out pretty fast and got a telling off as all the drivers would report it.

I am sure people know if they are slower or faster, and within an hour it's easy to spot the fakers.

I know what you mean, but this was the subjective bit I was referring to... Without data, you have to rely on being spotted or get a naughty boy sticker.

But as you say fast car vs fast driver would get determined soon enough.

 

[AndrewCS]

Why don't organisers publish the number of slots?

A full quota with Javelin at Croft is 65 cars. Next month`s (22nd) day there with R3 is full and includes ~ 14 PCGB attendees.

 

[geoff lane]

TDT and Mr D make good points but most of Tuesday's issues was around too many cars.

People go to do PCGB track days for different reasons, I'm sure TDT goes for different reasons to Twinfan etc, so you don't have an easy solution as TDT points out driving etiquette and less numbers would sort most of the problems. If you run open pit lane you will get drivers of different standards and travelling at different speeds.

I initially went on PCGB days because they catered for a broader range of abilities associated with club membership and Porsche ownership and hopefully people who respected the equipment and each other ( No Corsa's or Fiesta"s) but having not done a track day for 3 years, there did seem more intimidating driving probably down to numbers to an extent and frustration.

I don't want to chase fast lap times, I want to drive the car faster than I can do safely or legally on the road within my ability, ( I don't have £10k spare cash if I bin it) aware of the fact the I pay the first 10% of any accident. If I feel the car flowing through the corners and the speed gradually increasing then I'm happy.I also find the social side of equal importance and speaking to guys I'd not seen for 3 years and discussing cars brought back to me why I did trackdays.

As I said we do trackdays for our own reasons and I felt that PCGB in the past operated slightly differently to the main track day operators in that they primarily catered for ALL PCGB owners provided they followed the rules and allowances were made. I felt when I first did trackdays this was the way now I think it seems to be more in line with the other operators which for most is okay but will be intimidating for newcomers who want to try and find out about the limits of their cars. As Jeff says Blyton is probably the circuit that follows what I felt was the PCGB format and that is I guess where newcomers should be pointed.

It also seems that so many more people want to do PCGB trackdays now, they get booked up so quickly much quicker than a few years ago and where you could book a 1/2 day that now is frowned upon. I guess that is progress nothing stays the same.

Just my opinion.

 

[Twinfan]

Well said Geoff. I'm of a similar opinion to you re. enjoyment of the car being the #1 aim.

Unfortunately, I think the majority of people there were chasing lap times which can be captured on the Porsche App, via GoPros and other timing equipment. It's against the rules, but clearly the vast majority of people do it as they talk about it after the event. I have no idea what lap times I was running!

 

[AndrewCS]

Novice Trackday (javelintrackdays.co.uk)

 

[MrDemon]

Well said Geoff. I'm of a similar opinion to you re. enjoyment of the car being the #1 aim.

Unfortunately, I think the majority of people there were chasing lap times which can be captured on the Porsche App, via GoPros and other timing equipment. It's against the rules, but clearly the vast majority of people do it as they talk about it after the event. I have no idea what lap times I was running!

PCGB events are never about laptimes (hence all the faster guys don't do them now days and I also see them as club days and a fun day out with mates) I def don't think any one there was chasing them and it was impossable to do so even if they wished. Not saying that's good or bad, but cannot agree that the majority of people there were chasing lap times on Tuesday.

Some one driving faster is not about chasing a lap time but they want to push and get their money worth as much as the next guy at their own level.

 

[Twinfan]

OK, maybe not chasing lap times but certainly monitoring them and looking to reduce them.

That was my impression anyway, right or wrong.