How good is the s2?
- Thread starter cococola
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pauljmcnulty
Active member
The best all round 944, or get a 968 and we'll laugh at you for your poor choice of "style".
I'm already planning an S2, possibly cab, as the long-term replacement for VJ.
I'm already planning an S2, possibly cab, as the long-term replacement for VJ.
sawood12
New member
ORIGINAL: 944s2
[]A wonderfully lazy fast car unlike the gung ho turbo[
No backlash from me, you are right. The sheer pace of a turbo is intoxicating but the turbo lag and complete lack of power when driving off-boost is hugely frustrating. Most of my performance mods are intended to try to reduce/eliminate turbo lag rather than going for out and out power.
Although i'd bet Pauls 3.2 turbo is pretty lazy when he wants it to be.
Depends what you want. The S2 is the better car to leave standard (as opposed to a Turbo), but then some say the Lux is better balanced than the S2 with its bigger tyres etc. Most S2s are relatively low-spec so they are comparable to a Lux in terms of the interior feel.
I've had an S2 coupe and cab and they aren't a ball of fire by any means, but then neither is a standard Turbo (they are very similar in real pace, but it's delivered very differently). In their day they were quick-ish, but nowadays a hot hatch is probably as fast.
If you like your ovall dash Lux then the S2 might be the same but more so, or it could be the same with the delicacy and finesse reduced. Drive one and see what you think.
I've had an S2 coupe and cab and they aren't a ball of fire by any means, but then neither is a standard Turbo (they are very similar in real pace, but it's delivered very differently). In their day they were quick-ish, but nowadays a hot hatch is probably as fast.
If you like your ovall dash Lux then the S2 might be the same but more so, or it could be the same with the delicacy and finesse reduced. Drive one and see what you think.
jez_anderson
New member
I started with an 86 Lux and swapped last year to a 91 S2 and they feel like totally different cars - probably because they are[]. There is just so much umph when you want it or you can sit back and glide along with no effort. Its worth making the change.
]. There is just so much umph when you want it or you can sit back and glide along with no effort. Its worth making the change.Go for the S2 Cab.
Its the most beautiful Porsche Cabriolet in history by far IMO [8|]. And there is a boot too [].
The S2 Cab has the handling, drivability, performance (0-60 in 6.x secs and 140mph+ max is sufficient for most), rarity and most importantly the style to die for - its more gorgeous than the 968 cab, 911 cab and the Boxters.
I have spoken to a few Porsche indes before I accquired my S2 Cab. And the general opinion is that the S2 3.0L na engine is less troublesome and easier to maintain than the turbos where most of the turbos are now at least 16 years old and more problems may arise every now and then. There is not much difference in performance between the two in standard form unless you are tunning nut
L Love My 944 S2 Cab.
Charles
Its the most beautiful Porsche Cabriolet in history by far IMO [8|]. And there is a boot too [
].The S2 Cab has the handling, drivability, performance (0-60 in 6.x secs and 140mph+ max is sufficient for most), rarity and most importantly the style to die for - its more gorgeous than the 968 cab, 911 cab and the Boxters.
I have spoken to a few Porsche indes before I accquired my S2 Cab. And the general opinion is that the S2 3.0L na engine is less troublesome and easier to maintain than the turbos where most of the turbos are now at least 16 years old and more problems may arise every now and then. There is not much difference in performance between the two in standard form unless you are tunning nut
L Love My 944 S2 Cab.
Charles
See I don't know where people would get the idea the S2 is easier to maintain, especially someone who is supposed to know what they are talking about like an indie. I'm going to stick my neck out and say more than half the S2s on the road that have not yet had cams would probably turn up needing them if they were checked, and a significant minority are in danger of catastrophic failure at any time due to missing teeth. The Turbo has no such endemic problem.
pauljmcnulty
Active member
But could you not also say that half the turbos on the road have perished pipes, leaky wastegates, dodgy bolts on airboxes, haven't been allowed to cool after hard use properly, have had at least kerb knocks where the boost has caught one owner unaware on a slippery surface? Not endemic problems on a Lux....unless the P6000s catch me napping on a single wet leaf [
]I guess that at least half the 944s out there are poorly maintained dogs, waiting to bite an owner, no matter which one you choose.
The specialist may also be used to seeing turbos where people have messed around with modifications, not knowing what they were doing, less likely to happen with an S2. That would, of course, not include you lot! [
]
I agree with Fen. Turbos are pretty much a Lux with an air pump on the side. Ignoring the air pump, there is no more to go wrong with them than a Lux. Air pump issues just rob power they don't lunch the engine. S2 cams definitely do.
Switching off a hot turbo is bad for the air pump not the engine, and Turbos have timed water cooling to reduce that any way.
The laggy and vicious power delivery on a Turbo means you have to let it settle after the bend before "giving it large"- so people only get caught out once (generally). I would have thought cornering wheel spin action is more likely with an S2?
I agree that the Lux is a fabulous sports car. It is well balanced and handles beautifully - it is like a Caterfield with a roof...and back seats...and a heater...and practicality. But it isn't fast in todays terms. (When it came out -10 secs to 60 commanded serious respect) These days you aren't going to show a Chav a a diminishing tail pipe if he sits up your ass on a motorway. (My main reason for changing []) As hot hatches get hotter, and lighter, the same is becoming true of the S2.
Switching off a hot turbo is bad for the air pump not the engine, and Turbos have timed water cooling to reduce that any way.
The laggy and vicious power delivery on a Turbo means you have to let it settle after the bend before "giving it large"- so people only get caught out once (generally). I would have thought cornering wheel spin action is more likely with an S2?
I agree that the Lux is a fabulous sports car. It is well balanced and handles beautifully - it is like a Caterfield with a roof...and back seats...and a heater...and practicality. But it isn't fast in todays terms. (When it came out -10 secs to 60 commanded serious respect) These days you aren't going to show a Chav a a diminishing tail pipe if he sits up your ass on a motorway. (My main reason for changing [
]) As hot hatches get hotter, and lighter, the same is becoming true of the S2. 
Guest
New member
I had a 2.5 8v before my S2 and I would say the S2 feels like a totally different car, far more refined, smoother, faster, quieter - all round just a better drive. And I think it looks better too with the more modern front and rear under-spoiler thingie.
I wouldn't go back to the 8v now even though I thought it was good at the time.
I wouldn't go back to the 8v now even though I thought it was good at the time.
I think it's a fair point that possibly half the 944s out there are poorly maintained dogs (at least in the eyes of those more used to a 2 year old hatch), but my point is that even a lovingly cared for (including those with full OPC history) and apparently top-notch S2 is quite likely to have a nasty surprise under its cam cover, and as John says it's one that can do enough damage to potentially write the whole car off.
I don't think my indie charges less for a 12k service on an S2 than on a Turbo, and while the Turbo has a stated requirement of 6k oil change I think it is only good sense to do the same on an S2 or a Lux making negligible difference in running costs. You can replace the turbo and all the associated plumbing for the cost of S2 cams and as John says you aren't going to destroy the engine while you're driving around even if it needs doing.
Anyway this isn't supposed to be a Turbo vs. S2 discussion - I've had both and driven close to 100k miles in each variant and they are different cars suited to different requirements and driving styles meaning the S2 is better for some and the Turbo better for others. My point is that I really don't think it's even close to accurate to say the 3.0 is less troublesome than the Turbo engine when I think it's arguable that the 16v drivetrain is the single biggest weakness in the 944 & 968 range.
In fact that's a very pertinent point to the original topic posted - the 16v engine can hide some nasties that simply aren't there on the 8v and that needs to be considered when evaluating an S2 against a Lux. It wouldn't stop me buying an S2, but having been burned once already I'd want either documentation showing replacement of the cams, £1,500 off the top price the car would fetch as contingency, or to be allowed to have it inspected with the cam cover off by an indie of my choice to evaluate the cam condition. I wouldn't accept a new chain or tensioner as good enough as that could easily be fitted to worn cams prior to "outing" the car (unless it's supported by documentation from one of a very small number of indies I'd trust to put their reputation before a quick lash-up).
I don't think my indie charges less for a 12k service on an S2 than on a Turbo, and while the Turbo has a stated requirement of 6k oil change I think it is only good sense to do the same on an S2 or a Lux making negligible difference in running costs. You can replace the turbo and all the associated plumbing for the cost of S2 cams and as John says you aren't going to destroy the engine while you're driving around even if it needs doing.
Anyway this isn't supposed to be a Turbo vs. S2 discussion - I've had both and driven close to 100k miles in each variant and they are different cars suited to different requirements and driving styles meaning the S2 is better for some and the Turbo better for others. My point is that I really don't think it's even close to accurate to say the 3.0 is less troublesome than the Turbo engine when I think it's arguable that the 16v drivetrain is the single biggest weakness in the 944 & 968 range.
In fact that's a very pertinent point to the original topic posted - the 16v engine can hide some nasties that simply aren't there on the 8v and that needs to be considered when evaluating an S2 against a Lux. It wouldn't stop me buying an S2, but having been burned once already I'd want either documentation showing replacement of the cams, £1,500 off the top price the car would fetch as contingency, or to be allowed to have it inspected with the cam cover off by an indie of my choice to evaluate the cam condition. I wouldn't accept a new chain or tensioner as good enough as that could easily be fitted to worn cams prior to "outing" the car (unless it's supported by documentation from one of a very small number of indies I'd trust to put their reputation before a quick lash-up).
pauljmcnulty
Active member
[FONT=arial"]Well - we're all agreed then! []
Except -![[FONT=verdana,geneva"]](/forum/styles/default/pcgb/space.gif ". [FONT=verdana,geneva\"]")
[FONT=arial"]I do prefer the styling of the lux and s models.....sorry[FONT=arial"] []
]Except -
[FONT=arial"]I do prefer the styling of the lux and s models.....sorry[FONT=arial"] []Fen,
I bow to your greater experience of all things 944, but where do you get the gloomy outlook on S2 cams from? I understand how they work, but I looked at 7 S2's before I bought mine and only one of them had had problems with the cams, and both had been replaced. The others looked OK in this respect (admittedly I listened closely with the bonnet up but nothing more.)
The one I bought was examined by an Indie, who used a small microphone to listen to the cam sprockets, chain and tensioner (and tappets as well) with the engine on idle and pronounced it to be fine. Later, I removed the cam cover and all teeth were present and correct.
Are you saying that even in this circumstance there is no garuntee that things are ship-shape?
(As an aside, why are the pair of cams so fragile - the 16v VW engines worked on the same design and didn't have any problems at all. What did Porsche get wrong that VW got right?)
Oli.
I bow to your greater experience of all things 944, but where do you get the gloomy outlook on S2 cams from? I understand how they work, but I looked at 7 S2's before I bought mine and only one of them had had problems with the cams, and both had been replaced. The others looked OK in this respect (admittedly I listened closely with the bonnet up but nothing more.)
The one I bought was examined by an Indie, who used a small microphone to listen to the cam sprockets, chain and tensioner (and tappets as well) with the engine on idle and pronounced it to be fine. Later, I removed the cam cover and all teeth were present and correct.
Are you saying that even in this circumstance there is no garuntee that things are ship-shape?
(As an aside, why are the pair of cams so fragile - the 16v VW engines worked on the same design and didn't have any problems at all. What did Porsche get wrong that VW got right?)
Oli.
What Porsche got wrong was assuming that the cams and chain would last the lifetime of the car and thereby not requiring any maintenance.
Why I have a gloomy outlook is that I have owned 2 S2s and I have bought 4 S2 camshafts. The second time I allowed for the cost of the work when I was buying the car and still felt it was priced fairly, but I wasn't lucky enough to find it had good cams when they were checked.
There are various problems; the chain can be excessively worn ultimately making the teeth wear in an uneven shape and eventually shear off, possibly letting the cam slip out of timing or even jamming it and breaking the chain. Alternatively the nylon slipper on the tensioner can break off and jam the chain causing it to snap. Lastly the case hardening on the cams deteriorates over time and (I assume) leads to accelerated wear of the sprockets which can result in broken teeth and the same end result as scenario 1. In all cases the worst case is 16 new valves, 2 new cams etc. lots of labour and the hassle/expense of getting shrapnel out of the bottom end, or the worry of leaving it in there.
I know of multiple S2 and 968 owners who have had to replace the cams/chain/tensioner, fortunately most have not had to do it because of catastrophic failure (though Rick has the photos of one hapless (ex) member's engine after it lunched itself on his site). My first S2 was so bad the indie wouldn't take responsibility for it if I turned the key again without replacing the cams - he said if I didn't authorise the work he'd push it outside and wanted paying before I started it. Of course I had the cams replaced. It sounded fine, by the way.
Why I have a gloomy outlook is that I have owned 2 S2s and I have bought 4 S2 camshafts. The second time I allowed for the cost of the work when I was buying the car and still felt it was priced fairly, but I wasn't lucky enough to find it had good cams when they were checked.
There are various problems; the chain can be excessively worn ultimately making the teeth wear in an uneven shape and eventually shear off, possibly letting the cam slip out of timing or even jamming it and breaking the chain. Alternatively the nylon slipper on the tensioner can break off and jam the chain causing it to snap. Lastly the case hardening on the cams deteriorates over time and (I assume) leads to accelerated wear of the sprockets which can result in broken teeth and the same end result as scenario 1. In all cases the worst case is 16 new valves, 2 new cams etc. lots of labour and the hassle/expense of getting shrapnel out of the bottom end, or the worry of leaving it in there.
I know of multiple S2 and 968 owners who have had to replace the cams/chain/tensioner, fortunately most have not had to do it because of catastrophic failure (though Rick has the photos of one hapless (ex) member's engine after it lunched itself on his site). My first S2 was so bad the indie wouldn't take responsibility for it if I turned the key again without replacing the cams - he said if I didn't authorise the work he'd push it outside and wanted paying before I started it. Of course I had the cams replaced. It sounded fine, by the way.
Fen,
Hmm. Once bitten twice shy. In your case, twice bitten, several times shy.
You mentioned the cam chain causing wear of the sprocket teeth ... I have documented proof of my cam chain being changed at 90,000 miles, and the tensioner (and two slippers) at the same time. I guess this puts me in a safer position than some.
How can you spot the case hardening on the sprockets going west? (Or is this not possible?) I guess one way would be to look for odd-shaped teeth as they will be wearing (into a hook shape, presumably?), but given that the case hardening is going to be pretty thin, you wouldn't necessarily be able to see this unless it was quite advanced.
Hmmm. I thought my car was all fine. Now you've got me worried! Not sure that I like you any more. :sulks:
Oli.
Oli.
Hmm. Once bitten twice shy. In your case, twice bitten, several times shy.
You mentioned the cam chain causing wear of the sprocket teeth ... I have documented proof of my cam chain being changed at 90,000 miles, and the tensioner (and two slippers) at the same time. I guess this puts me in a safer position than some.
How can you spot the case hardening on the sprockets going west? (Or is this not possible?) I guess one way would be to look for odd-shaped teeth as they will be wearing (into a hook shape, presumably?), but given that the case hardening is going to be pretty thin, you wouldn't necessarily be able to see this unless it was quite advanced.
Hmmm. I thought my car was all fine. Now you've got me worried! Not sure that I like you any more. :sulks:
Oli.
Oli.
ok .. shoot me down for being a naive illiterate nincompoop, but how many S2 cam cataclysmic failures do any of you in our little 944 community know about? It's all fantastic to talk about cam & slipper maintenance / rust prevention / repair, but when the value of 944's seems to be evaporating, what's the sense? There are those of you who have been owners for a good few years & have seen values plummet, but I feel it's wrong to harp on about possible mechanical/bodywork failure when in reality it bears no relation to the current value of 944's.
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