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How good is the s2?

There was one guy one here who had his fail catastrophically, pics on Rick's site as mentioned earlier. I think repairs cost him north of £3k and ultimately he sold the car. I think he'd have been better off selling the car for spares with the engine broken, but that's with the 20:20 hindsight factor.

Mine would have failed on my coupe, perhaps not immediately at the next key turn, but soon given that it was a 1,000 mile a week daily driver at the time.

My indie checks them on any S2 he sees for the first time and he's replaced loads (he's also quite cheap as he gets the cams from Porsche's supplier direct. Depending on exchange rate he can usually do a 968 for under £1k and the S2 is cheaper). He is not someone who creates work that doesn't need to be done, so I trust him when he says they are worn. He can spot the case hardening failure so I assume it's visible if you know what to look for - splodges of a different colour metal showing through maybe?

There's enough value in an S2 still that it's worth replacing them if they need doing on an otherwise decent example. I think maybe it's not worth fixing the damage if there is a catastrophic failure though, as that can be much more expensive to fix. It's for that reason I beat the drum periodically on this - not to worry S2 owners nor put potential purchasers off, but to try to prevent ignorance of the problem writing cars off or making people pay over the odds for a car with an expensive and serious engine issue to be resolved.

If you don't think an S2 is worth £1,000 in preventative maintenance to give its engine another 15 years and 100k miles of life then that is of course a valid view, but I suspect most owners of the model would rather grimace and pay up than accept they are running a car that might lunch its engine such that they have to throw it away.

Oli, you're better off than all but those who have also had the cams replaced. What I would say to you (and Andy L and anyone else with a new chain) is think about motorbikes; you never replace a chain on a bike without doing the sprockets also, because a worn chain has a level of corresponding wear on the sprockets and fitting a new chain to an old sprocket accelerates future sprocket and moreso chain wear as the new chain doesn't mesh perfectly with the wear created by the old one. I don't know that it's the same for the S2 cam drive, but it's the same type of chain so it would seem more than likely it is to my logic.

I expect a large number of S2s have never been checked, primarily as Porsche don't specify a need to check them in the maintenance schedule. Most people on here do know to check though. I don't know the life expectancy of a car with failing case hardening, but I do know that a car with misshapen teeth will start to shear teeth off and will ultimately fail completely, possibly quite soon.
 
ORIGINAL: ad

ok .. shoot me down for being a naive illiterate nincompoop, but how many S2 cam cataclysmic failures do any of you in our little 944 community know about? It's all fantastic to talk about cam & slipper maintenance / rust prevention / repair, but when the value of 944's seems to be evaporating, what's the sense? There are those of you who have been owners for a good few years & have seen values plummet, but I feel it's wrong to harp on about possible mechanical/bodywork failure when in reality it bears no relation to the current value of 944's.

Sorry - I will have to shoot you down in flames! [;)]

Cataclysmic cam failures - a few. Four-figure repair bills to PREVENT failure - lots. Enquiries from owners and prospective buyers - masses.

Surely you would agree that the whole point of the Register and the Forum - for many the Club itself - is to help keep our cars running well and economically for years to come? I don't see why you link this to the value of a car? It doesn't matter a hoot how much my Lux is valued at when it needs a service or repair, other than to possibly consider the option of breaking the car instead of an expensive repair. This has happened to some half-decent cars recently.

The rust issue is the same. I think that a large percentage of the owners would rather have the knowledge to repair and protect their car than see it possibly deteriorate to the point of being beyond economical repair in a few years time?

I would also suggest that our little community - nearly 1400 members plus a substantial number of very welcome non-members who get the benefit of this forum, so not that small... - would rather see 944 values strengthen than fall any lower. By hiding our heads in the sand and seeing more new owners lose their shirts on poorly maintained cars the model will soon lose it's appeal and it's reputation as one of the best c. £5k cars you can buy!

I'm not quite sure what topics you'd prefer to see on here, but feel free to raise them!

 
The 944 still has exceptional dynamic ability and (in Turbo form) is one of the few 80's Super Cars that can still be used every day. A well maintained example will still turn heads and sit with cars 5-10 times its current value.

IMHO the value of a 944 is not what you could buy, or sell, it for; but how much something of equal ability would cost. I would, perhaps, put an S2 on a par with my 3.0 ltr X Type Sport.
 
ORIGINAL: John Sims
I would, perhaps, put an S2 on a par with my 3.0 ltr X Type Sport.

Your X-Type isn't very quick then? [FONT=arial"]Fen hides from S2 owners...[FONT=verdana,geneva"]
 
S2? Great car! My first Porker.

Would swallow a huge amount of luggage (compared to a 911!!) and great fun on track. Could really hang the tail out....[;)]

Engine revs like b*ggery and needs the cut off, but so smooth....No great probs when I owned my H reg, but that was in '94.....

 
ORIGINAL: Fen
Your X-Type isn't very quick then? [FONT=arial"]Fen hides from S2 owners...[FONT=verdana,geneva"]
Right chaps, I'm happy to lead the posse, who's in? While dishing out the summary justice that is clearly WELL deserved, we can all remember that our (hugely high-performance, of course) S2's are quicker than his turbo at the moment ... in fact, I could go quicker on my bicycle at the moment than Fen could go in his turbo ...


Oli.
 
ORIGINAL: zcacogp

S2's are quicker than his turbo at the moment ... in fact, I could go quicker on my bicycle at the moment than Fen could go in his turbo ...


Oli.

Very true. Unless it was down a very steep hill with some tight bends at the bottom - I still have track tyres, KWs and big blacks to trump your bicycle's cornering and braking after all. In fact, consider my Turbo like a ground-based glider...
 
ORIGINAL: Fen
... consider my Turbo like a ground-based glider...
I can't help but notice the original title of this thread, 'How good is the S2?'. Fen has kindly provided a useful comparison with a Turbo, we have an eralier comparison with a Jag X-type, what other cars would the original poster like to have an S2 compared with?

I know that Trabants were all the rage a few years back (and I have driven one of those as well) ... oh, sorry, we weren't looking for competition with Fen's turbo, we were looking for a meaningful yardstick with which to compare an S2 ...


Oli.
 
ORIGINAL: Fen

ORIGINAL: John Sims
I would, perhaps, put an S2 on a par with my 3.0 ltr X Type Sport.

Your X-Type isn't very quick then? Fen hides from S2 owners...

I find in such situations it is so much better just to simile graciously.........so people can ponder what you are really thinking. [:)]
 
IMO, once the 944s have reached the Classic Car status, speed isn't that important any more (the 924s have grown gracefully)[:)].

In order to budget for the potential cam change or the more severe damages, can someone provide some useful stats so that us S2 owners will budget for e.g.
1) What is the life (years and mileage) of the cam/chain/sproket under normal/enjoyable/extreme driving style?
2) Out there with the unlucky S2s which have experienced the problems, what was the averege year/mileage when it happend?
3) Are there any replacment cams that are better than the original ones?

Geeee. I am feeling so low now thinking that I am driving a 944 timebomb which could potential cost me a trip to a loan shark [&o]
Maybe someone can update the Buying Guide if all these potential problems on the S2s are valid.

I still LOVE my S2 Cab after all these distressing information [:)]

Charles
 
I would suggest that there are too many factors to make an assessment relative to millage.

Much would depend on the preceding life of the car, type of oil used, frequency of oil changes, was the car a shopping car or a long mileage vehicle (ie cold oil or hot oil) when was the cam chain and slipper changed previously (if ever) etc etc.

Perhaps, if there is no indication of previous change I would certainly be considering it at post 100K.

I don't know how much cams are but, I would have thought, it would be worth doing them "while you were in there" at post 100K.

I'm not aware of any alternative cams and assume Porsche would have designed theirs to get the best out of them any way........but I don't know much about S2's [;)].
 
Actually Oli I'm going to blame you for comparing your S2 to my Turbo. The other comparison I was involved in was in response to Charles' suggestion the S2 engine is less troublesome than the Turbo's, so not me again and I did earlier explicity state the thread wasn't supposed to be a Turbo vs. S2 one, rather a comparison of the S2 to the Lux.

In all seriousness the S2 is a very nice car. I personally probably will never have another one, but that's because I have been there and have the T-shirt (both coupe and cab) and don't really have a need for a car that the S2 would fill; the 964 is my road Porsche with potential occasional track use while the track Turbo is unavailable and the hearse is my daily driver. An S2 could easily replace either the 964 or the hearse (or even both) in terms of capability, but for now at least I wouldn't want to do that.

An S2 is heavier than a Lux and has more tyre. I haven't owned a Lux, but I know several people eulogise over their balance and delicacy and I'm pretty sure the S2 is closer to the Turbo than the Lux in losing much of that. It is significantly meatier in the trouser department than the Lux however and I am one of a significant proportion of people who prefer the styling of the S2/Turbo to the Lux.

What the S2 is good at is being a road car. It isn't especially fast in real 2007 terms, and you won't get significantly more go out of it unless you spend pretty much the value of the car and then some making the engine fresh and then bolting up a supercharger, but it's plenty quick enough for the real world. It's also capable of being a decent occasional track toy straight out of the box. Combination of lack of engine tunability and smaller brakes/less "sporting" suspension etc. make it a less good base for a dedicated track car than a Turbo - witness we only have one seriously track-focussed S2 in our number compared with a handful of Turbos. For these reasons I have always said to anyone in the S2 or Turbo dilemma that they should buy an S2 if they want to leave it standard and a Turbo if they want to modify it.

Equipment specification was quite low in the S2 and most weren't heavily optioned, so most are non-air-con, comfort seats, cloth etc. That compares pretty much equally with most Luxes, perhaps the auto temperature of the S2 being the only real difference. They are out there with sports seats, leather and air-con, but rare. They share the same increased propensity to rust as the Turbo due to the plastic sill trims which the Lux doesn't have, but not all S2/Turbos have rusty sills and not all Luxes are rust free in that area.

The unique Achilles heel of the S2 (and it isn't totally unique as it applies to the S also, and that has developed an undeserved reputation as the 944 to avoid because of it) is the twin cam design. It isn't a reason not to buy an S2, rather it's something to know about and guard against being caught out by as a buyer. It is totally fixable for a maximum of about £1,000 if it is done preventatively.

To answer your questions as best I can Charles, the case hardening can be failing on any S2 by now as it's an age thing. I don't believe driving style plays any part in cam wear, though I suspect the frequency and quality of oil changes, the regularity of use, the symapthy of use when cold, the level of short journeys where the engine doesn't get up to temperature etc. play a part. Also cars that have been checked periodically and may have had new tensioners early in life may be in better nick today. Low mileage probably saves a car that has no case hardening problems. As a guide I think you want to find any car has been maintained by someone who knows the issues from about 50k miles. No maintenance to about 100k and you might find all manner of nastiness when checked - I think my coupe had about 95k on it and it had missing teeth and was 11 years old at the time.

I don't believe there is any "better" cam profile than the OE one and I'd also be surprised if OE quality cams aren't the best available replacements.
 
ORIGINAL: Fen

Actually Oli I'm going to blame you for comparing your S2 to my Turbo.
True. But I never like the facts getting in the way of a good slanging match! [:D]

On a serious note, I have never driven a turbo, but everyone, everywhere says pretty much the same thing - the turbo is the one to buy if you want to modify it, the S2 if you are into keeping things standard. The S2 was a ball of fire in it's day, but cars have got quicker, and the S2 is nothing more than brisk nowadays. A friend gave mine a good thrashing just after I bought it, and summed it up well, "Lovely car to drive, but not *that* quick. Still no slouch though."

Interesting point about the suitability of the two for track and road use. I guess, as you say, it comes down to the fact that the 250 turbo had bigger everything (although I thought the 220 turbo had the same suspension and brakes as the S2 - non?)


Oli.
 
Yep, the 220 Turbo is very much an S2 in all respects apart from engine. It might have slightly different ARB rates is all. There is nothing wrong with a 220, but really if a Turbo is the model that suits you want a 250 for the LSD, brakes, strengthened gears, bigger ARBs and torsion bars etc. etc. The 220 is nicer to drive standard though as it has less latency.
 
Some great information posted here[:)]

I bought both my 944s for the body styling and general sporty looks and affordability.I always get a lift whenever I drive my Lux and I dont find any problems with the performance as it is more than satisfactory for my needs.
I feel that overall the 944 is a fantastic propersition in terms of value for money and enjoyment for what I already consider a super classic car.[:)]
I think if I did make a change in the future I would probably go for the Cab S2 model to be a more worthwhile step-up.[8|]
 
My New Cams are £390 each plus vat.
My indie looked into high lift from the states,even more expensive. But the advice from here was it wasnt worth it.
My Mileage is 120K

ORIGINAL: John Sims


Perhaps, if there is no indication of previous change I would certainly be considering it at post 100K.
 
I don't know how much cams are but, I would have thought, it would be worth doing them "while you were in there" at post 100K.
 
What a great thread, and a bad one at the same time for me!

I'm with Charles in that I also love my S2 Cab but am now feeling a little nervous about what the future may hold. My car has covered 52k and has very comprehensive history, particularly with excellent Indies in the last 6 years (OPC's previous) - it has always had the usual belts & caliper plates addressed when required (no rust issues as yet!), but none of the v detailed history touches chains, followers, cams etc.

Should I get someone to inspect?

Following previous, less detailed threads on this topic, I have mentioned this to my Indie several months ago (Zentrum) who basically played down my fear due to it's mileage and history to date - should I press on and get everything inspected / wait until its next service / or wait until the next major job for an inspection (eg when belts are done again)?

Can someone also confirm all the parts that should really be changed as a part of this 'achillees heel':-
chain
followers
cams (optional)
???

Cheers,
Chris.

p.s. I still wouldn't change it for anything else at the moment (unless those 6 numbers come in!)....
 

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