How good is the s2?
- Thread starter cococola
- Start date
944psi
New member
Chris,
Zentrum did the belts on my S2 and I asked them to check the cam chain (following on from various threads) but they implied it wasn't really necessary as they never have to change them. This may be because they are ex-opc and the chain / tensioner was (IIRC) not on any service schedule.
My car has 90k miles more than yours too!
Phil
Zentrum did the belts on my S2 and I asked them to check the cam chain (following on from various threads) but they implied it wasn't really necessary as they never have to change them. This may be because they are ex-opc and the chain / tensioner was (IIRC) not on any service schedule.
My car has 90k miles more than yours too!
Phil
Oooooh, one very useful driving lesson my dad taught me was never trust anyone that drives while wearing a hat.ORIGINAL: pauljmcnulty
Only if the driver wears a hat....[]
Or anyone that drives with stickers in their back windows.
It is a VERY useful rule of thumb.
Sorry chaps, as you were - S2's and somesuch ...
Oli.
I'm sorry guys, but i'm not overly impressed with the statistical data on engine failure you have supplied in order to substantiate your call to have cams routinely replaced. 1 known failure & "a few" isn't a persuasive argument in my book (especially with a huge pool of 1400 members to call upon []). My indie didn't buy it either. Wouldn't it be funny if my car lunched itself though?
]). My indie didn't buy it either. Wouldn't it be funny if my car lunched itself though?
pauljmcnulty
Active member
Hi Ad,
Sorry, but what is your point?
Are you trying to say that S2 cams are bulletproof, and would you guarantee them?
Or, are you saying that we should not try and quantify the potential future problems on our cars?
Sorry, but what is your point?
Are you trying to say that S2 cams are bulletproof, and would you guarantee them?
Or, are you saying that we should not try and quantify the potential future problems on our cars?
Diver944
Active member
This is one of the most popular debates amongst enthusiasts and it has only arisen because there is no official guideline from Porsche. Because of this we have to make up our own, and of course we will err on the side of caution (or take a gamble [])
Personally I had my chain and tensioner pad replaced six years ago at 90k miles and then again two years ago at 150k miles. It cost around £200 each time during a service and it gives the mechanic a chance to look at the cams at the same time. I'm now at 173k miles and in future I shall be asking them to inspect them every two years (an hours labour and a gasket) and change the chain and tensioner pad when necessary.
There have not been many cam failures but over the past 8 years I have had my S2 and been active on Porsche forums but I have definitley read about at least half a dozen. Who knows how many of them had never been regularly inspected, it's impossible to say. It may not be a huge risk, but the risk is out there and I for one am more than happy to pay a few hundred quid every few years than get hit with a bill for another new engine!
These are expensive cars (if you don't look after them), but they are also blumming cheap if you do
])Personally I had my chain and tensioner pad replaced six years ago at 90k miles and then again two years ago at 150k miles. It cost around £200 each time during a service and it gives the mechanic a chance to look at the cams at the same time. I'm now at 173k miles and in future I shall be asking them to inspect them every two years (an hours labour and a gasket) and change the chain and tensioner pad when necessary.
There have not been many cam failures but over the past 8 years I have had my S2 and been active on Porsche forums but I have definitley read about at least half a dozen. Who knows how many of them had never been regularly inspected, it's impossible to say. It may not be a huge risk, but the risk is out there and I for one am more than happy to pay a few hundred quid every few years than get hit with a bill for another new engine!
These are expensive cars (if you don't look after them), but they are also blumming cheap if you do
mik_ok
New member
As per previous comments ~ I don't think the S2 cam chain issue is being touted as any reason not to buy one, and I think there is ample evidence to suggest that Porsche's original "requires no maintenance" policy is flawed.
Hence the need for "those in the know" to share the knowledge.
I got my car at 75k miles and had an inspection performed by my indy. No concerns at that point.
Had it checked again just before I sold the car (88k miles). Again no concerns..... but that knowledge gave me enormous comfort every time the rev counter swung towards the redline.
I only visited my indy half a dozen times or so when I owned the car. During this period I discussed the fate of one S2 with the owner (of the garage) which had suffered a snapped chain ~ it was in a bay with the head off at the time.... not one of his "regular cars".
Hence the need for "those in the know" to share the knowledge.
I got my car at 75k miles and had an inspection performed by my indy. No concerns at that point.
Had it checked again just before I sold the car (88k miles). Again no concerns..... but that knowledge gave me enormous comfort every time the rev counter swung towards the redline.
I only visited my indy half a dozen times or so when I owned the car. During this period I discussed the fate of one S2 with the owner (of the garage) which had suffered a snapped chain ~ it was in a bay with the head off at the time.... not one of his "regular cars".
morris944s2john
New member
I thought the cam failures were due to the plastic slipper breaking up on the tensioner, then the chain runs on the metal of the tensioner and it all rapidly goes bang, teeth stripped from the cams due to chain failure.
Is it possible to tell by the sound of the engine as to the state of cams/ chain?
Is it possible to tell by the sound of the engine as to the state of cams/ chain?
Apology for starting the S2 and Turbo maintenance debate .... (I just repeated what I was told [8|]). Anyway, I am glad that I have started it and we now have a very interesting discussion so far.
Anyway, I went to collect my S2 cab yesterday from the indie (RPM) for the routine service and discussed the cam chain issue with him. They have seen a few (single digit but not that common) S2s and 968s with snapped chain problem and therefore the damages. They always recommend their customers to replace the chain (£200) at the same time when doing the belts and tensioners and have a closer inspection of the condition of the cam too. This pre-caution aligns with Paul's advice earlier. I think I may just do that on the next belts change.
I have found this on ebay http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Zylinderkopf-fuer-Porsche-944-S2_W0QQitemZ260088339930QQihZ016QQcategoryZ61370QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
from a German seller and I have translated the text (via freetranslation) as follows ...
"Cylinder head for Porsche 944 S2
The S2 cylinder head is actual a part very robust, like also the entire remainder of the motor. But maintenance working on that are costly and expensive and became often neglects therefore. That can stretch devastating sequences after. Many camshafts were destroyed already by worn down chain stretchers, Gleitschienen and tax chain. Also broken out chain stretcher reception occur occasionally. "
Is this a common problem in Germany? It will be interested to know how many S2 camshafts and chains that Porsche have sold [8|]
Charles
Anyway, I went to collect my S2 cab yesterday from the indie (RPM) for the routine service and discussed the cam chain issue with him. They have seen a few (single digit but not that common) S2s and 968s with snapped chain problem and therefore the damages. They always recommend their customers to replace the chain (£200) at the same time when doing the belts and tensioners and have a closer inspection of the condition of the cam too. This pre-caution aligns with Paul's advice earlier. I think I may just do that on the next belts change.
I have found this on ebay http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Zylinderkopf-fuer-Porsche-944-S2_W0QQitemZ260088339930QQihZ016QQcategoryZ61370QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
from a German seller and I have translated the text (via freetranslation) as follows ...
"Cylinder head for Porsche 944 S2
The S2 cylinder head is actual a part very robust, like also the entire remainder of the motor. But maintenance working on that are costly and expensive and became often neglects therefore. That can stretch devastating sequences after. Many camshafts were destroyed already by worn down chain stretchers, Gleitschienen and tax chain. Also broken out chain stretcher reception occur occasionally. "
Is this a common problem in Germany? It will be interested to know how many S2 camshafts and chains that Porsche have sold [8|]
Charles
Paul Fraser
New member
I take the point about acceptable risk although I don't know if I'd take this route. What is the likely cost of a replacement secondhand engine for a S2? I would have thought that the number of bodywork write offs would yield a number of likely donors. If it is at least £1k to change the cams and only £2k for a second hand engine (say) I think I might take my chances. Having said that, I've seem a few 2.5 engines for sale at around £500-1000 but no S2 ones.
cdickinson
New member
If in reality the cautionary measure is around an additional £200 for new chain and tensioner (as suggested by Diver), then this will definately be my plan. We know the 'major' service items such as belts should always be planned to ensure our S2's are kept in ship-shape, so to me another £200 (ish) every 'few' years is well worth it in my book.
Granted, the unlucky few will have to shell out more for cams etc (but hopefully not me!).
Certainly, from what Phil said, I'll be asking my Indie (Zentrum) to check every time my belts are done and act accordingly. This seems the sensible approach to me??? (providing you already know the detailed history of the car and therefore when the belts are due......)
Granted, the unlucky few will have to shell out more for cams etc (but hopefully not me!).
Certainly, from what Phil said, I'll be asking my Indie (Zentrum) to check every time my belts are done and act accordingly. This seems the sensible approach to me??? (providing you already know the detailed history of the car and therefore when the belts are due......)
Nobody is advocating replacement of cams just in case, rather quantify the problem and address as necessary, so I don't see the acceptable risk theory myself as most people are suggesting quantifying the risk quite accurately. That said I don't consider it to be and don't want to make it an argument, I'm just trying to share my experience (bought at not inconsiderable cost) with other owners or potential purchasers by laying out the facts. I don't know of a lot of catastrophic failures, but then I will tell everyone I know with an S2 to get the cam chain checked to try to prevent it. I do know a lot of S2 owners who have had it checked and have been advised a problem is brewing, but they then had the necessary maintenance done and averted disaster.
The way I see it is you can bury your head in the sand and you might be lucky or you might lose your top end. I personally prefer to know what's going to bite me, so I'd recommend getting someone to check the situation at next service if it hasn't been done before (or immediately if it's 100k+ miles with no attention). Only if the report is that the cams have wear, broken teeth or failing case hardening would I say they should be replaced. Similarly if the chain is OK then leave it, and if it is worn but the cams are not then you can get just the chain replaced, though I do have concerns about new chains on old sprockets and I think that should be monitored every 12k service. It's probably a good idea to replace the tensioner every 50k or so - or every belt service and certainly if anything else is replaced.
I'm not sure I'd use Zentrum for the work based on what Phil said - how well will they check something if they don't believe it needs checked?
I don't see why it's any more common in Germany than here, Charles. Maybe that text is written by someone who knows of the problem as not everyone does.
Andy, if you haven't ordered the cams yet I think my indie could get them for considerably less than £390+VAT each. Let me know if you want his number or for me to ask on your behalf.
The way I see it is you can bury your head in the sand and you might be lucky or you might lose your top end. I personally prefer to know what's going to bite me, so I'd recommend getting someone to check the situation at next service if it hasn't been done before (or immediately if it's 100k+ miles with no attention). Only if the report is that the cams have wear, broken teeth or failing case hardening would I say they should be replaced. Similarly if the chain is OK then leave it, and if it is worn but the cams are not then you can get just the chain replaced, though I do have concerns about new chains on old sprockets and I think that should be monitored every 12k service. It's probably a good idea to replace the tensioner every 50k or so - or every belt service and certainly if anything else is replaced.
I'm not sure I'd use Zentrum for the work based on what Phil said - how well will they check something if they don't believe it needs checked?
I don't see why it's any more common in Germany than here, Charles. Maybe that text is written by someone who knows of the problem as not everyone does.
Andy, if you haven't ordered the cams yet I think my indie could get them for considerably less than £390+VAT each. Let me know if you want his number or for me to ask on your behalf.
Chaps,
It seems that there are several discussions going on here, all related to the cam set-up on the S2, but concerning different components. Let's not confuse a cam chain change (comparatively easy and cheap) with a cam change (significantly more pricey.) Failure of either will lead to the same consequence (bent valves/holes in head and pistons/big bill) but they are not the same part. Sadly, those nice boys and girls in Stuttgart never saw fit to catalogue either as maintenance parts, and this is what is causing the problems now.
The point being raised by Fen is an interesting one - the failure of the cams as a progressive failure ensuing from running an overly-worn cam chain. If one were to replace the cam chain regularly so you were never running a worn one, would the cam sprockets ever fail (within a normal, 200,000 mile?) lifetime?
Oli.
It seems that there are several discussions going on here, all related to the cam set-up on the S2, but concerning different components. Let's not confuse a cam chain change (comparatively easy and cheap) with a cam change (significantly more pricey.) Failure of either will lead to the same consequence (bent valves/holes in head and pistons/big bill) but they are not the same part. Sadly, those nice boys and girls in Stuttgart never saw fit to catalogue either as maintenance parts, and this is what is causing the problems now.
The point being raised by Fen is an interesting one - the failure of the cams as a progressive failure ensuing from running an overly-worn cam chain. If one were to replace the cam chain regularly so you were never running a worn one, would the cam sprockets ever fail (within a normal, 200,000 mile?) lifetime?
A telephone number of someone whio can get useful parts cheap is always welcome. I'd be grateful if you could send it to me - thanks. PM is fine.
Oli.
Paul Fraser
New member
If anyone gets the cost of the new cams can they post it here please. I'm sure we'd all be interested, S2 owners and S2 owner wannabes, too.
PS for reference ECP are £320+VAT
PS for reference ECP are £320+VAT
I just rang him to ask (and tell him one of his customers crashed his 968 yesterday [], but he's OK at least even if the car isn't). He'd have to get a firm quote to be accurate, but it would be in the region of £500-£550+VAT the pair. He says he can "easily" fit the whole lot for £1,000, so it's a high 3-figure job to get him to do it if that were your preferred option. He's in Devon, but it's the right side of the county for most people and easy to get to (Honiton), and he has a courtesy car you can borrow by prior arrangement.
], but he's OK at least even if the car isn't). He'd have to get a firm quote to be accurate, but it would be in the region of £500-£550+VAT the pair. He says he can "easily" fit the whole lot for £1,000, so it's a high 3-figure job to get him to do it if that were your preferred option. He's in Devon, but it's the right side of the county for most people and easy to get to (Honiton), and he has a courtesy car you can borrow by prior arrangement.
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