How important is the brand 'Porsche' to you?

[Neil Haughey]

Pretty clear to me that Porsche these days is supposed to be a better quality more robust and focused alternative to sporting BMW, Audi and MB models. I don't see the brand as a pure sports car brand any more, that is just a byproduct of heritage.

This is why I felt the whole thing with the Nissan GTR was so amusing as I am sure that the number of Porsche buyers who would buy the Nissan instead is extremely small. R8/RS4/M3/M5 different kettles of fish, definite head on competitors to Porsche.

 

[George Elliott]

Neil, I guess your summing up is close to the mark, - I'm just disappointed that the Company are so far from the pure-bred German Sports car with a strong motorsport presence which they once had.

Interesting you mention Nissan, thats a brand which is on the up IMO. The GTR is a masterpiece, its the first transaxle 4WD layout. Just needs some marketing but at least the substance is there.

George

944t - balanced by design
964 - balanced by the driver

 

[nick3814]

Porsche. The brand, the name, heritage, motorsport, road cars, the clothing etc etc etc are my world, I love everything about them.

Since I saw the 928 at the motorshow in 1977 (when I was 5yrs old [] ) thats been it for me, "obsessed" is the word my wife uses! I can't imagine not owning a Porsche ever again. My goal was always to own a 911 so after a 924S and a 944 Lux I got my 911SC [] only to find I really missed the 944!! So now I'm lucky enough to have both, I work on them myself, have the garage decorated with Porsche flags, posters, photos etc and since running region 3 I have made so many good friends as a result............... I love it [][][][].

You hear lots of complaints and moans and groans about the modern Porsches and the OPC's occasionally but I still believe the company is the greatest car manufacturer on the planet, head and shoulders above the others and I believe the folks running Porsche are very clever and know what they are doing.

I LOVE PORSCHE ME [][][][]

 

[Jonny B]

I love the galvanised bits, after working on a beetle, the odd few rust free nuts and bolts are a dream.

JB
(totally freaked out by the cadbury kids, i wont buy that brand)

 

[Neil Haughey]

ORIGINAL: George Elliott
Interesting you mention Nissan, thats a brand which is on the up IMO. The GTR is a masterpiece, its the first transaxle 4WD layout. Just needs some marketing but at least the substance is there.

Out of all the guff on the net about the Nissan I have to admit that as an Engineer it is a very big achievement for Nissan. Maybe some question marks about the cars robustness but from various articles I have looked at there is one hell of a lot of clever details in that car. If anything the new 370z should be more worrying for Porsche, more power, shorter, wider better handling and looks like it will cost less then the 350. This weeks auto comic says 28K for 325 Bhp, interesting stuff.

BTA if we are only interested in technology the mega dark horse out there is the 4x4 V6 turbo version of the new GM Insignia, the media says it laps the Nurburgring in 8 minutes flat. I expect it must be utilising the new 4 wheel drive system developed by Saab (ISTR gen 2 or gen 3 Haldex or something they are calling it now). Expected to cost less then £30K. All depends what you want I suppose, this sort of technology and new stiffer chassis, applied to fairly basic saloon cars makes anything that isn't either wonderful to look at or intoxicating to drive fairly redundant.

 

[zcacogp]

ORIGINAL: Neil Haughey
... the mega dark horse out there is the 4x4 V6 turbo version of the new GM Insignia, the media says it laps the Nurburgring in 8 minutes flat. I expect it must be utilising the new 4 wheel drive system developed by Saab (ISTR gen 2 or gen 3 Haldex or something they are calling it now). Expected to cost less then £30K. All depends what you want I suppose, this sort of technology and new stiffer chassis, applied to fairly basic saloon cars makes anything that isn't either wonderful to look at or intoxicating to drive fairly redundant.

Cripes!

Got linkage?


Oli.

 

[Neil Haughey]

It was in last weeks autoexpress. They may have something about it on their website. Its in Issue 1049 - 4th to 10th Feb. It has in brief 255 wide tyres on 20" rims, 320 Bhp v6 turbo motor, price estimate is £28,500 and on sale early next year. The snippet said a little more but not much, just look for Insignia VXR.

Edited to include linky that has the same details

http://www.evo.co.uk/news/evonews/233782/insignia_vxr.html

Like I said a couple of posts up, anyone buying a car based predominantly on performance needs to think long and hard, something like this will be 15 grand in a couple of years time and allegedly laps the ring in a time that only the most recent Porsche 911's are going to beat.

 

[DivineE]

I've not bothered to read the other replies sorry but the topic got me thinking so I thought I'd respond! I'd hate to be associated with people who say 'oh a Porsche' when I explain to them what a 944 is! Truth be told though, if it wasn't for my love of 911's leading to a curiosity about what this affordable '944' car was like I'd never have bought my lux.

The reason I love them, go back to them no matter what I've been driving and will always aim to own one in some shape or form is because I cannot think of another car which has the same character, feel, ability, reliability and practicality for any money (plus I've grown familiar, more knowledgeable and fond with time). I just love being in one, love driving one and love owning one in a way that no modern car and certainly no Japanese car will ever be able to match!

I've owned many really superb new cars which have elements of the 944's skills covered from the practical but sporty mk5 R32 golf to me currently for sale BMW Z4M which is probably as quick around a track and as good looking in my opinion but all of them leave a hollow empty feeling in me. None of them have the full range of tallent that the 944 can satisfy..

Yep I'm coming back to a 944 for the 5th time now and I've no intention whatsoever of selling it when I get my 997 GT3 or 993 turbo which is a dream which may soon come true!

So get back to topic though I don't give a to*s about the badge on any of these cars! Its not a bloody ferrari! Its a drivers car, made to be driven! I couldn't care less what others think about my enjoyment of it.

 

[Fen]

ORIGINAL: Neil Haughey

It was in last weeks autoexpress. They may have something about it on their website. Its in Issue 1049 - 4th to 10th Feb. It has in brief 255 wide tyres on 20" rims, 320 Bhp v6 turbo motor, price estimate is £28,500 and on sale early next year. The snippet said a little more but not much, just look for Insignia VXR.

Edited to include linky that has the same details

http://www.evo.co.uk/news/evonews/233782/insignia_vxr.html

Like I said a couple of posts up, anyone buying a car based predominantly on performance needs to think long and hard, something like this will be 15 grand in a couple of years time and allegedly laps the ring in a time that only the most recent Porsche 911's are going to beat.

Butt-ugly though, which shouldn't have surprised me, but for some reason did.

 

[Neil Haughey]

IMHO the vast majority of modern cars look awkward. The high waistline really doesn't help with the looks but makes a nice strong safe body shell. I found the Alfa 8C a huge let down in the flesh, it looked huge, shouldn't have surprised me though.

In this respect Porsche don't do to bad, they get a lot of flak in the media and on internet forums but they still seem to make with the Cayman and 911 at least, fairly sleek looking cars with reasonable proportions and dimensions.

Maserati GT is a very nice looking car in the flesh but again is massive.

What we will think when Porsche put out the next gen Boxster with a diesel engine and platform share with VW? I won't mind so much as long as the car is a reasonably small size, low weight and has a fantastic chassis.

 

[sawood12]

Well for me it's all about the cars rather than the brand. They are cars that punch above their weight in every sense but can also be used everyday. They are cheaper and as quick if not quicker with less power than their competition, can be used every day in any weather - unlike their competition, and have normal car servicing intervals and can return decent economy. In truth the 911 has been beating the laws of physics all its life. Get the PDK Carrera S2 and it is as quick as an R8 on the track, better than any mid engined sportscar on the road and quicker than a GT-R off the line.

The current competition Porsche is seeing now is keeping them very honest and the competition is pretty good, but regarding the GT-R, generally if something appears too good to be true then it generally (i.e. always) is. I suspect there is quite a bit of underhand behind the scenes shananigans going on with the GT-R. For example when a press car was tested on a dyno it was putting out significantly more HP than the normal production cars have. Also Nissan has a history of overstating its products performance capability and fiddling tests. Porsche always understates its products performance capability and are quite happy to let the cars do the talking. I think after Porsche drove the GT-R round the ring and couldn't replicate the Nissan time that Nissans excuse of "They weren't driving it properly - it needs to be driven in a special way" was pathetic. Porsche has never suggested you need to drive their cars in a 'special way' - even in the days of the widowmaker 911's. If the GT-R is so good and truly defys the laws of Physics then why don't they sell it at a decent price (i.e. at a profit for a start) - they are afterall facing financial losses, unlike Porsche. I suspect that they realise if they did sell at a decent price that they realise no-one would choose it over a Porsche, R8, AMv8, F430 etc.

I suspect GT-R's will go the way of Scooby's, Evo's and other Japanese Playstation cars. The Chav's will aspire to own them, adorn them with all the leftover rubbish Halfords couldn't sell, modify the engine to the extent they produce 2000% more power, but all over a 5 RPM power band, then take them drifting and trash them. I can't imagine there will be too many around in 21yrs time.

Also I don't see how with Porsche branching out to other models how that detracts from its sportscar heritage. It is, afterall, a business and without a sound product range there would be no sportscar at all. At the end of the day they keep on developing the 911/Cayman/Boxster so ultimately their sportscars are being enriched by their diversification. And don't forget Ferrari is not exactly a pure sportscar company. It is, afterall, the sporstcar division of Fiat, the company which brings you the Punto and Multipla!!

 

[Fen]

My point re: sportscars is that they aren't; they're all GT cars nowadays. Sportscars don't have all the electronic rubbish. I know they build focussed sub-models (ironically they call them GT), but what about a proper bare-bones, back-to-basics (relatively) cheap proper sports car?

 

[Pastry]

I think the GT-R is a smart piece of kit, bold claims maybe but as an evolution of the skyline concept its always been stuffed full of trick tech, that's the whole ethos behind it. I can honestly see a driver not being able to program the thing properly to get the most out of it I didn't know they were selling at a loss, but if they are then Porsche did it first with the 959 ;p

I don't know if the 'sportcar' argument is just semantics, or all personal opinion, you can argue its a no-frills unassisted 1950s tech vehicle, but you can go buy a MG Midget for that, surely a modern sportscar should use modern technology. I regard the 944 as somewhere between a GT and a sportscar, but it can be classed as both.

 

[zcacogp]

It's probably because people don't want sports cars any more. Sure, they say they do, but if they realised that a sports car meant low, impractical, manual windows (gasp! You need to wind them using your hand?) no air-conditioning, no parking sensors, no CD changer, cloth interior, noisy, uncomfortable and all the rest of it then they would never buy it.

I genuinely believe that cars are very largely status symbols in the UK (and probably in much of the rest of the world as well.) And status is having more than the Joneses. And if the Joneses have electric windows/CD changer/Climatronic/other bells and whistles on their car then you need to have them on your car as well. Why else are new car adverts awash with lists of what the cars have but say nothing about the driven wheels or the performance or handling?

If people had the choice of such a cheap, small, lightweight sports car, or a similarly-priced supermini with every mod con, they will chose the supermini. Particularly if they can be persuaded by the salesman that "it's a sporty little model. And it says 'Sports' on the boot, so it's a sports car." So manufacturers build superminis to meet popular demand.

I'd say the last car that met your description was probably the original MX5. And look what the mark 3 MX5 is ...


Oli.

 

[Pastry]

Just as an aside, this article is about the amount of software inside a modern car; 'the radio and navigation system in the current S-class Mercedes-Benz requires over 20 million lines of code alone and the car contains nearly as many ECUs [Electronic Control Units] as the new Airbus A380' I can only see this increasing over time, and filtering down to the basic Fiesta (which already has options for voice recognition as demonstrated on Fifth Gear a couple of weeks back). Nissan aren't mentioned but i'm left wondering if the GT-R might set some sort of record in this respect.

 

[ClubRacer]

Like many young car-mad lads I was first attracted to Porsche through their racing heritage. Having trained and qualified as an engineer at Rolls-Royce, I have always been hands on with my cars and they have been many and varied; sometimes through necessity.

So, yes, firstly the name seemed worthy of investigation; but after having owned them, raced them and maintained them, it is the design, the engineering and the whole "function before form" that means such a lot to me. I love the old cars (SWBs are still great fun but moving the rear wheels aft 50mm made a huge difference), I love the faulted cars (924 turbo was a hoot), an 80s 911 Carrera is a great car, 944 turbo race car was a great challenge, and I love the modern cars too: they all represent the logical developements which Porsche have made or been forced into. Both my current Boxster and 944 make me smile in different ways.

I can hold my own with the "anti-Porsche" type and, sometimes, I like to think I have made a conversion!

 

[sawood12]

I agree with Fens sentiments in that a true sportscar should be simple, convertible, cheap and good fun, but for me in my mind I regard a true sportscar as one that has been designed as such from the start and not converted or souped up from another platform e.g. a BMW M3 which is a souped up rep-mobile and not a true sportscar - though a very good car undoubtedly it is compromised due to being based on a repmobile and therefore not as good a car as it could have been.

 

[TTM]

ORIGINAL: sawood12
I agree with Fens sentiments in that a true sportscar should be simple, convertible, cheap and good fun, but for me in my mind I regard a true sportscar as one that has been designed as such from the start and not converted or souped up from another platform e.g. a BMW M3 which is a souped up rep-mobile and not a true sportscar - though a very good car undoubtedly it is compromised due to being based on a repmobile and therefore not as good a car as it could have been.

Though it was based on a repmobile the Lotus Cortina was a proper sportscar. So were most GTIs from the 80s.
And they were not convertible []!

 

[Fen]

I don't think they have to be convertible - that's a roadster. I agree with the purpose built aspect however and I have to disagree that the Lotus Cortina was a sportscar. It was a sports saloon perhaps. The M3 is actually based on a coupe which arguably is purpose-built as a sports car; I don't know for sure about the current one (e90?), but the e46 coupe didn't share a panel with the 4-door.

Your post (which I agree with) amused me Oli, as my most recent purchase, and the newest car I currently own, has "handraulic" windows, no central locking and cloth seats. It also has a roll cage from the factory and happens to be convertible (with 3 plastic windows held in by zips []). Apparently Enzo Ferrari called it "America's only true sports car". It does however have air-con, cassette and CD (no RDS on the radio though) and it's anything but fast.

 

[mr brightside]

Someone said to me once regarding my 924s, "yeah but it's not a 911 is it?", as if i had aspired to one rather than something cheaper, more reliable, easier to work on, better handling and less dangerous. He was suggesting i got the 924s because i wanted the association with the badge but couldn't afford a 911, people miss the point of porsche ownership very often and the 80's yuppies are to blame.