Is KW user friendly?

Hilux · Dec 31, 2006

About to play with car again (as much as the wife will let me)

If I can get it all done then I`m up for Bedford on 24th Feb [8D]

Need to replace worn Mo30 suspension so having searched I will go on recommendation and having driven (briefly) Fens beast intend to go KW and Weltmeister front ARB. Where are the best places to get these? (I have searched the net but consider y`all may have better deals to be found)

Do I need to go V3 as I tend to be a fit and forget person and having tracked Ginettas and Westy`s the fuss re suspension set up for road vs track was a real pain.

How hard is it to reset the V3? If its major work then for the two or three track days a year is it worth it? The fronts will be simple enough but if its removing rears etc I`m not sure I can be asked anymore. I dont worry re road ride quality provided its not so hard that it unsettles the car in bends. (I`ve driven thousands of miles in rock hard kit cars [

])

Adjustable top mounts appeal for track. Have you any recommendations re effectiveness etc as I have searched posts re noise, wear and discussions re mount types but no one actually states that they make a noticeable difference. I would have thought they would reduce tyre temps and save tyres on track?

Also just ordered a tube bender so I will be making a bolt in half roll cage for the 944, a full cage for my sons Golf and a wrap around for my Zuky SJ offroader.

I`ll let you all know if I set the 944 on fire [8D]

Fen · Dec 31, 2006

KW is very user friendly. It has 3 adjustments per corner; height which is a one-time setting, bump and rebound. All bar one of the rear settings can be adjusted easily on the car and for that rear setting (I have a mental block if it's bump or rebound; I think rebound) it can comfortably be left at the track setting on the road in my opinion. In terms of buying them I think Stuart the 968 RS, owner of the 968UK forum and proprietor of K300 is the best vendor.

I didn't try my car with KW and standard top mounts, but I'd say the adjustable Rose jointed ones don't make it too harsh. It can clunk sometimes, but that's about it. In terms of adjustability I'm in favour. Yes, the toe setting is adversely affected when you change the camber, but you can almost keep it in tolerance if you adjust it accurately to set the road setting with the toe on one extreme as it then only just goes out of tolerance at the track setting. Based on one dry session at Oulton I'd say it doesn't cause tyre wear issues and it felt extremely planted with the extra camber (not that it was bad before, but it would push wide whereas after adjusting it the front only washed out if I came into a tight corner far too hot.

I'm not sure I'd recommend only the front Welt ARB; it's such a phenomenally more beefy item than even the 968 M030 ones that I think it would be too much with a Porsche rear. In terms of a supplier they are really US only and heavy/bulky to ship so (much as it may surprise some people) I got mine from ProMax.

You should also look to do the bushes I'd say, though after my Powerflex problems I'd hesitate to recommend them. To be fair they worked with me to try to resolve it and I have a pair of modified bushes in the car that may be fine, but I didn't get enough miles on them to know if the problem is fixed or not. That said Big Dave has some in his S2 with no problems at all, which I find difficult to explain and Powerflex customer service is second to none in my experience.

Are you going to ditch the PAS?

sawood12 · Dec 31, 2006

Fen, Did you ever look into the KW std top mounts? are they rose jointed or effectively replacements for standard items?

Big Dave · Dec 31, 2006

KW,,, IS definately easy to live with ..UNLESS you up the spring rate poundage to its max.Then it gets a bit harsh...
In standard form its just dandy....[

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]

In standard form + standard settings, ie bump + rebound set to fully soft, its great . In fact its probably a little softer than the M030 stuff..
Its DEAD easy to adjust when you get to the track . just an allen key + off you go..
I have mine set at full soft for road use + then when i change the tyres at the track, just adjust the stiffness to my settings.. Which is,,, wind in the adjuster to full then back it off half a turn...
The rear top[rebound] is hard to get at but i just leave it at track settings aprox 3/4 stiff, + i find its about right...

Ide fit the 968 M030 arbs all round.. with polybushes...Ive not found the need to go any stiffer...Dont just do the front or the rear as it will unsetle the car....
Yes i have got the polybushes on my wishbones + they do stiffen up the front end...
But they arnt a necesaty..
The front end is very pointy now....

Top mounts ..
You can use the standard ones just fine..If you only do 2-3 track days a year then i wouldnt bother with the extra harshness they will give...
Ive got some Dynatech top mounts , but i dont think they are supplying them anymore...[&o][&o][&o]

I bought my adj top mounts so i could adjust them trackside,,, But ive since found that it also affects the toe settings so ive just left them alone...[

][

]

Anyway .. Have fun "playing with them"....

Fen · Dec 31, 2006

I didn't look at the KW top mounts to be honest Scott. I think all they supply is a hat to use with the OE ones.

Personally I had a set of 968 ARBs and sold them on unfitted as I didn't rate them; they still use the same weedy mount as the originals and have 3 position adjustment on the rears only. They are designed for the 968 M030 suspension which is not firm enough after all.

Hilux · Dec 31, 2006

I'm not sure I'd recommend only the front Welt ARB; it's such a phenomenally more beefy item than even the 968 M030 ones that I think it would be too much with a Porsche rear. In terms of a supplier they are really US only and heavy/bulky to ship so (much as it may surprise some people) I got mine from ProMax.

You should also look to do the bushes I'd say, though after my Powerflex problems I'd hesitate to recommend them. To be fair they worked with me to try to resolve it and I have a pair of modified bushes in the car that may be fine, but I didn't get enough miles on them to know if the problem is fixed or not. That said Big Dave has some in his S2 with no problems at all, which I find difficult to explain and Powerflex customer service is second to none in my experience.

Are you going to ditch the PAS?

Hi Fen,

So what do you recommend re ARB`s? I cannot get used to the roll having driven Ginettas and Westys and feel that the 968 ones will always be a compromise and therefore not enough.

I will change/renew the bushes but having used polyurethane bushes in the past I never noticed much difference in double wishbone kit cars, in fact they 'seemed' to reduce vagueness but introduced harshness. Do you feel the expense is worth it over new OE ones?

I`m not sure re the PAS. One day I`ll go for lightness but it usually equates to 10 bhp extra for every 50 kilo reduction in weight so with a chip upgrade of circa 30 bhp its like losing 150kg and far cheaper however I loved the direct steering input your car gave without the PAS but I`ll sit on that one for now.

I need to tread carefully as I still havent fitted out the extension and also want to refurbish the calipers and need new discs all around, braided hose, uprated pads and new b fluid.

I usually work on all my cars myself but being so busy I`ll probably go down the the 'Promax' caliper swap route re the brakes and discs and at the same time supply the V3 kit for them to fit and set up alongside new bushes. For some reason I love the car but do not like working on it. Cant explain as its a great car I have and for once I am happy to let experts do the work. To date all thats been done has been fine and not a lot of money considering the complicated nature of the car. I feel that I cannot expose it enough so as to work comfortably on it (a la kit cars) and its such a pain without a four poster.

I`ve just bought another Zuky SJ soft top to go alongside my SJ van which are both really fun to work on when you have limited time. Offroading in a big bog or quarry is fantastic fun. If you fancy a go.........[

]

KW,,, IS definately easy to live with ..UNLESS you up the spring rate poundage to its max.Then it gets a bit harsh...

Hi Dave W

I assume different spring rates are available? What do you recommend from experience?

Fen? What rates did you find ok?

Fen · Dec 31, 2006

I recommend the Welt bars, but I recommend you get the rear one as well.

I just went with the springs KW supply with the V3 kit.

Guest · Dec 31, 2006

What are the costings like (ballpark) on the KW Setup??

Fen · Dec 31, 2006

Around £1,400 delivered, then you have fitting which includes a reindex of the rear torsions. Most people drop the rear beam to do that and in pretty much all cases the mounts are found to be breaking apart and they are circa £220+VAT to replace. It's close to a £2k job if you pay someone to do it for you.

Big Dave · Jan 1, 2007

There are 2 springs fitted to the strut.
The helper spring + the main spring .Im not sure of the rates for the helper...
The rates for the MAIN springs are as follows.,,,,,,

The standard spring rates are ,,
Front,60N/mm or 335lbs/inch
Rears,,50N/mm or 279lbs/inch...

These are adequate....for a few track days ..
But ive upped mine to the max the valving will allow [ discussed with KW technical dept ]..Otherwise you damage the internal pre set valves....

Fronts,,80N/mm or 447lbs/inch.
Rears,,70N/mm or 391lbs/inch...

With these fitted i now find the car to be very stiffly sprung + does skip around on British B roads..But i use the car mainly on track so im living with it....I just dont drive it fast on the road...[ Thats what the track is for ]...

As for ARB,s
The Welt bars i believe are multi adjustable, + seem a bit of overkill , especially if your not into "playing" with settings...
But everyone to there own...

Fen · Jan 1, 2007

What do you feel you gained from the stiffer KW springs? I assume flatter cornering? I guess I just think it's interesting that you went stiffer on the springs than those supplied as part of a matched set yet think bigger and more adjustable ARB's are overkill.

Hilux · Jan 1, 2007

There are 2 springs fitted to the strut.
The helper spring + the main spring .Im not sure of the rates for the helper...
The rates for the MAIN springs are as follows.,,,,,,

The standard spring rates are ,,
Front,60N/mm or 335lbs/inch
Rears,,50N/mm or 279lbs/inch...

These are adequate....for a few track days ..
But ive upped mine to the max the valving will allow [ discussed with KW technical dept ]..Otherwise you damage the internal pre set valves....

Call me stupid but..............

1) Do you mean that you`ve uprated the springs to the max valve limits?

or

2) You have harder springs so as to reduce travel and help the factory valving?

or

2) I need to uprate the springs for the track as in factory issue format the pre sets are insufficient for track days with the factory spring rates ??

and

4) What do you mean they last for a few track days? On factory springs after a few track days they bust the valving and are toast?

Hilux · Jan 1, 2007

What do you feel you gained from the stiffer KW springs? I assume flatter cornering? I guess I just think it's interesting that you went stiffer on the springs than those supplied as part of a matched set yet think bigger and more adjustable ARB's are overkill.

Good point as I am of the Colin Chapman mind re suspension. Slightly softer springing but well damped with stiff ARB`s keeps tyre contact on rougher surfaces but also allows control of roll and u/steer/o/steer by setting ARB rates in conjunction with damper settings.

Softer ARB`s can require harder springs to reduce travel at the expense of surefootedness on rough surfaces IMHO

Big Dave · Jan 1, 2007

Ive increased the spring rate to couteract the roll i was getting on the standard springs..
So yes i suppose if idve fitted the welts it wouldve done the same job.. Its just the Welts were MORE expensive...+ i already had the M030 bars...+ i didnt want to have anymore adjustments to complicate things...Oh + i "think" the welts are heavier, but i might be mistaken there...
I havnt used the Welts ,So ive no 1st hand experience,,,, its just i didnt want to complicate matters with more adjustability...

The stiffer springs are the max you can go with the standard factory valving. if you /i were to fit even stiffer springs than i have,,,then the valving wouldve needed changing...NOT just adjusting...{at the factory}..
Basically if you fit stiffer springs they "move / rebound" faster , which would damage the internal valves...
I discused this with the technical dept at KW...At some length...

When i said "for a few track days" i was meaning ,, if you were only to do a few a year,,,,as you mentioned in your post,,...Not that theyd wear out....

If i drive the car fast on "typical" UK roads then it does skip about a bit,+ i have to concentrate a fair bit... but i find it ABSOLUTELY spot on on a SMOOTH track as most are....

B4 i upped the spring rate it didnt skip as much , but it still tramlined a bit,, then again the car geometry is set up faily aggressivley...[ Track settings]...

Fen · Jan 1, 2007

Yep, the Welt bars are quite heavy.

Guest · Jan 1, 2007

Surely at this level are Leda triple adjustable not another good alternative to KW especially as the are only based in Essex and can do you corner wights on site when fitting??

Fen · Jan 1, 2007

I only know of 2 or 3 people with Leda and one of them had a rear shock snap on the 'Ring. That's too high a percentage failure for me, especially when others say they knock the chassis member. And they are more expensive and don't have the high-speed bypass valve.

wjk_glynn · Jan 1, 2007

ORIGINAL: Fen

I didn't look at the KW top mounts to be honest Scott. I think all they supply is a hat to use with the OE ones.

I had the same question because KW's website(s) does not show any camber plates. They just show the hats Fen refers to.

However, "333gp333" in Australia bought a KW V3 setup for his 951 and they came with KW camber plates. Photos showing the KW camber plates can be seen here: http://www.968forums.com/index.php?showtopic=3198

I've got a tech support call into KW here in the US to find out more information about these parts and as soon as they get back to work after the holidays, I expect to get a response.

Karl.

Guest · Jan 1, 2007

Hi Fen,

I have never heard of a shock snapping in anything other than an accident or hitting a kerp unsympathetically
The rear Ledas can foul if you don't use the racers edge banana mounts. The triple do have high speed and low speed rebound adjustment. I can get good discount out of Leda so price wise they are similar money.
I am just debating where to put my money, I am also looking at Motons and possibly JIC.
Who is currently using KW???