Just found this car

[Ian964]

ORIGINAL: Hacki

ORIGINAL: jason

Didn't they all go to the US for a race series there that then got scrapped because the regs changed? Or am I now mixing it up with something else.....

Not sure, but I don´t think so. Wasn´t that the series with these strange TOYO sponsored Cup car lookalikes?

Hacki

There was a Carrera Cup USA race series planned for '92/'93. Due to Porsche NA having a few problems with the US government, they were unable to import standard 964 cup cars, so imported what were basically 964RS Tourings which were then due to be converted to full cup spec by Andial. The series was cancelled before it even started. The converted cars are basically identical spec to '92 EU 964 Cup Cars. There's quite a bit of useful info here - http://www.carreracupusa.org/

 

[Melv]

ORIGINAL: pauldishman

Isn't it annoying when advertisers put POA?

If ya gotta ask......[]

 

[jason]

ORIGINAL: Ian964

ORIGINAL: Hacki

ORIGINAL: jason

Didn't they all go to the US for a race series there that then got scrapped because the regs changed? Or am I now mixing it up with something else.....

Not sure, but I don´t think so. Wasn´t that the series with these strange TOYO sponsored Cup car lookalikes?

Hacki

There was a Carrera Cup USA race series planned for '92/'93. Due to Porsche NA having a few problems with the US government, they were unable to import standard 964 cup cars, so imported what were basically 964RS Tourings which were then due to be converted to full cup spec by Andial. The series was cancelled before it even started. The converted cars are basically identical spec to '92 EU 964 Cup Cars. There's quite a bit of useful info here - http://www.carreracupusa.org/

That was the one....

 

[PhilRS]

Could not agree more with Hacki! I have never understood the interest for these C4 lwt...

On the RSR theme, there is something odd: The race cars have not been selling particularly well (i.e. close to asking price) but the nice road conversions with little mileage (e.g. Ben's) have been selling well. If you look around, you will notice that there are several race cars for sale and if you have been following this market for a while (and I have given that I tried to sell mine for a while), you will notice that the asking prices for the race cars have been steadily decreasing rather than increasing...

ORIGINAL: Hacki

ORIGINAL: ChrisW

As far as EH is concerned, the C4 doesn't seem to float anybody's boat ?

Hacki, what do you think ?

The C4 lwt was never a great car to have - from my point of view. It´s a 4wd car, 16" wheels, short axle (slow topspeed), totally overrated, not road legal, if my memory is correct,  - so what is it for? Sounds like a gravel toy for Finland...(which is probably great fun, but a totally different story)

It was only made, because there were so many parts left and trying to make money out of rare sportscars was just beginning. I remember two out of those 20 cars that should be sold when they were new...should be sold. Nobody was seriously interested. I think the dealership lost a lot of money. Finally they went out the door...cheap, about 17 years ago. Nothing has really changed ever since. Only a collector could be a potential buyer.

The comment in the EH advertisement is BS.

Rgds

Hacki

 

[h_____]

Phil, do you think that it is because, there isnt enough decent uses for an expensive race car at the moment? I.e. not enough good race series, and those race series were the car is eligible they dont make a sensible choice? For example, the AMOC series is very open at this point, making a 10-15year old expensive 911 not a good choice, both from a risk perspective and competitive perspective.

Or are someother forces at play?

 

[65 mat]

http://www.edmondharris.com


This isn't Paul Mc's RSR by any chance is it?

 

[jason]

Thats what I thought when I read it but didn't think Paul had it for sale?

 

[PhilRS]

The line that I have heard from a few dealers selling these cars is (1) that they are costly alternatives to the 993 Cups, which are typically eligible to race in the same series than the RSR, at more modest running costs for the amateur, (2) that people on the market for RSRs will typically be collectors who want pristine machines, not raced ones and (3) that many of the raced cars on the market require (despite the price at which they are offered) significant work to put them back to the original specs that the collectors will want.

BTW, I am not saying that I concur with any of these points. They represent what I have heard.

ORIGINAL: h_____

Phil, do you think that it is because, there isnt enough decent uses for an expensive race car at the moment?  I.e. not enough good race series, and those race series were the car is eligible they dont make a sensible choice?  For example, the AMOC series is very open at this point, making a 10-15year old expensive 911 not a good choice, both from a risk perspective and competitive perspective. 

Or are someother forces at play?

 

[Ben Savill]

Matt,

It isn't Macca's car. Know the details of this one (at EH) pretty well. Not sure what happened to Paul's, it was for sale a while ago.

Cheers.

 

[h_____]

Thanks, interesting perspective. I guess that the story with the 3.6 NGT and cup cars is not the same as they are very, very similar. Although I think they too are falling into collecters cars, vs used cars too. I wasnt really aware that the 3.8 had significantly higher running costs.

I do see that the originality question will become key. Mags and Alloy bonnets in the loft then, prior to a competitive life!!

 

[65 mat]

ORIGINAL: Ben Savill

Matt,

It isn't Macca's car. Know the details of this one (at EH) pretty well. Not sure what happened to Paul's, it was for sale a while ago.

Cheers.

I see! Is the EH one a good one Ben? Are there any really bad ones?[:-]

 

[ChrisW]

ORIGINAL: PhilRS

The line that I have heard from a few dealers selling these cars is (1) that they are costly alternatives to the 993 Cups, which are typically eligible to race in the same series than the RSR, at more modest running costs for the amateur, (2) that people on the market for RSRs will typically be collectors who want pristine machines, not raced ones and (3) that many of the raced cars on the market require (despite the price at which they are offered) significant work to put them back to the original specs that the collectors will want.

BTW, I am not saying that I concur with any of these points. They represent what I have heard.

ORIGINAL: h_____

Phil, do you think that it is because, there isnt enough decent uses for an expensive race car at the moment?  I.e. not enough good race series, and those race series were the car is eligible they dont make a sensible choice?  For example, the AMOC series is very open at this point, making a 10-15year old expensive 911 not a good choice, both from a risk perspective and competitive perspective. 

Or are someother forces at play?

This sounds quite plausible to me.

I think the issue with RSR's is this.

From the perspective of using an RSR, is it really worth twice an N-GT ?

From the perspective of collecting an RSR, originality and mileage are the two most important factors ---- unless the car has an amazing race pedigree.

Hacki, I agree that the C4 project was a cynical Barth plan to convert bits via a limited race car run into cash --- predominately in the US.

The Andial RS series is well documented history --- but I would have thought that these cars would be quite desireable.

 

[Ben Savill]

[/quote]
From the perspective of using an RSR, is it really worth twice an N-GT ?
[/quote]

They are amazing machines, the level of grip is insane, just ask that bloke Edwards - he was quite smitten. The noise in the upper rev range is totally intoxicating and you certainly know and feel you are driving something very special.

BUT, and this is a very big but, while at Spa this time around I found myself wanting to push on more, braking deeper and harder using up the buffer of comfort. I didn't want to be in a position where I found myself at the limit of my skill (clearly not the car's) driving something as valuable as the RSR.

Consequently I'm looking into a 964 race car - not Cup, N-GT, just a converted road going car. Something that I can push myself in, improve my car craft and if I have an off, it doesn't impact the value of the car. You just repair it and go again.

Is it worth more than an N-GT ?? If you define worth by how many beer tokens you can get for it, then clearly some people think so [] but doesn't mean you have more fun and that is what we are all out to do after all.

Enough philosophical viewpoints, I'm off to bed to dream of foot flat to the floor round Double Gauche.

 

[h_____]

I can see I really a go in a 3.8 RSR at some point!!! I thought the noise in the NGT was pretty intoxicating, although that was supassed by 2.0 '65 car I've been in recently [&:], so I wonder what a 3.8 could be like!! [:-]

 

[65 mat]

How does the RSR fair on the road Ben? Will you retire it for road use only?
...sorry for being so nosey Ben but the RSR wins the top trumps for me!

 

[jason]

Ben I know of a mint 964 race car just built by a real specialist - ground up build from shell. Was built for Porsche championship but not raced. If I had the money I'd buy it to do exactly what you are saying.

Its circa £30k which is less than it cost - if you are interested PM me for details

 

[PhilRS]

I agree with Ben: The noise from 4000 revs (and Ben and I compared this a while back) is much nicer than CUPs or RSs. It reminds me of a 2.0S, or 2.2S howl, for those in the know [] Also, the combination of grip from the fat rear tyres, the nicely sorted rose jointed stiff, dual-spring suspension makes the car very stable compared to the 964 RSs and CUPs.

It is true that you do feel you are driving something very special. Listen (again) to this noise [][][]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMbAN6nDuQ0

However, a reasoning similar to Ben's made me sell mine (just after restoration) and buy a 993 CUP. I thought that going to a 964 CUP (though I love them and almost bought Herr Schmitz Kermit Green 964 CUP) would be a big step down in bhp and I drive mostly at Spa, a bhp track! I was also very tempted by the nice GT3R now (and then) for sale at Gmund but was persuaded not to by people who ran them $$$$$$$$$!!!

So, after 4 tracks days at Spa with the 993 CUP, setting up its chassis and adjusting to a 6-speed short box (the RSR had a 5 speed short box), the main differences that I noticed are:
1. The 993 CUP engine is "safer," with a lower usable rev range and not as free reving as the RSRs past 6000 rpms (CUP is very similar in feel to RS engines).
2. The noise is more intoxicating in the RSR.
3. The RSR is more stable in all aspects of a curve (sharper entry, steady-state and more stable exit)--though I have not yet driven the CUP on slicks, only Michelin CUPs, so the comparison is not entirely fair but I doubt that I can better the grip of those 305 slicks at the rear!
4. Top speeds are very similar (the short 6-speed box helps a lot on Kemel, where I have the same top speed in both cars).

In short, the 964 RSR and 993 CUP are closely matched at Spa, in terms of performance. In terms of feeling special, the RSR definitely wins.

 

[Ben Savill]

On to it already Jason [] but thank you for putting 2 & 2 together.

ORIGINAL: jason

Ben I know of a mint 964 race car just built by a real specialist - ground up build from shell. Was built for Porsche championship but not raced. If I had the money I'd buy it to do exactly what you are saying.

Its circa £30k which is less than it cost - if you are interested PM me for details

 

[Hacki]

I didn´t exspect such an interesting post when I started it... I was just a bit bored and put up an RSR (or lookalike) for entertainment. Very interesting points, I think, my conclusion would be

a 993 Cup, if I would like to go for the best track day car

a 964 Cup for a combination of the classic 911 silhouette and a great track day car

a 964 RSR if I wanted to go the extra mile for something very special

a Replica (964 or 993) with race specs of my personal favour for trying as hard as possible and improve driving skills

And reading all this, I´m not tempted at all buying a kettle...


Aircooled regards,

Hacki

 

[65 mat]

...and what about the 993 RSR?