KW v.3's on an S.2........
- Thread starter wolfie308
- Start date
ronald smith
New member
Yes a picture as a before KWv3 if ok I can attach some more.
Cheers
Ron
Cheers
Ron
sawood12
New member
Not sure, but I remember reading the experiences from a chap who fitted 968 M030 rear coil-overs to his 944 and he said it jacked his car up significantly. He didn't provide any measurements. He ended up re-indexing as well.
Would this rough back-of-a-fag packet calc be too far out of a ball park figure?:-
weight over the rear axle (assuming total car weight of 1400kg's) = 700 kg's (due to 50:50 weight distribution) = 1543 lb
Added spring rate due to rear coil overs = 500lb/inch
therefore 1543 / 500 = 3 inches
Therefore 1.5 inches (75mm) as this weight is spread over two coil-overs.
Scott,
I like that - using figures to put a number on it. Thank you.
BUT (and I could be wrong here), is that the right way of calculating it? You have calculated the amount of compression (reduction in length) you would experience from putting half the weight of a 944 on two springs, not the extra ride height of adding those two springs to the existing set-up.
I may have made a mistake. Or they could be one and the same thing. But I'm not sure you are right.
Oli.
I like that - using figures to put a number on it. Thank you.
BUT (and I could be wrong here), is that the right way of calculating it? You have calculated the amount of compression (reduction in length) you would experience from putting half the weight of a 944 on two springs, not the extra ride height of adding those two springs to the existing set-up.
I may have made a mistake. Or they could be one and the same thing. But I'm not sure you are right.
Oli.
sawood12
New member
Oli, I think the principal is sound (unless i've missed something fundamental) - A spring is a reversible system so if you partially compress a spring with say a 5kg weight, then swap for a 4kg weight the spring will lengthen by a certain amount. If you then swap for a 6kg weight then the spring will compress by the same amount relative to the nominal 5kg weight position. So the magnitude of the displacement is the same irrespective of direction. This assumes a spring of linear rating and not a progressive rate.
Actually thinking about it i'm not even sure about that last comment about the displacement being shared over the two coilovers. I think it will actually be 3 inches and not 1.5. To compress a single 250lb coilover by 3 inches you need 750lb, and of course you have 2 coil-overs so would need 1500lb to compress both by 3 inches. Oh well, too late for me to start thinking!!
Actually thinking about it i'm not even sure about that last comment about the displacement being shared over the two coilovers. I think it will actually be 3 inches and not 1.5. To compress a single 250lb coilover by 3 inches you need 750lb, and of course you have 2 coil-overs so would need 1500lb to compress both by 3 inches. Oh well, too late for me to start thinking!!
Big Dave
New member
Flippin heck... Isnt there enough threads about KW already on here.????[8|][8|][8|][8|][8|]
Yes it is GREAT stuff.. PERIOD....[
][][]
Yes it does work just as well on S2,s as well as turbos...As they are basically the same car...
It also "seems" like it will fit to a car without having it lowered on the indexing,,,, BUT + its a BIG BUT,, i dont believe it will work as the manufactureres recomended.. It is a stiffer more sporty focused suspension kit,, + in that the cars centre of gravity needs to be lowered aswell as it making the springs / torsion bars work TOGETHER...
YES i had it fitted to my S2 for a few years + it worked FABULOUSLY.. With the car considerably lower than it left the factory...
If all you want to do, is drive "enthusiasticaly" on the road, then maybee itl work [if your lucky] without lowering. BUT if you want the ultimate road track car, then re-index....
Its a REAL pity i live "up norf" as not many of you got to sample my S2 first hand. It was FAB...+ anybody that did have rides in it climbed out with a GREAT big grin from ear to ear....[][][][][][]
In fact if Appleton is around, he can vouch for it,, well almost, as the 968 is sat on the same stuff....[][][]
Yes it is GREAT stuff.. PERIOD....[
][][]Yes it does work just as well on S2,s as well as turbos...As they are basically the same car...
It also "seems" like it will fit to a car without having it lowered on the indexing,,,, BUT + its a BIG BUT,, i dont believe it will work as the manufactureres recomended.. It is a stiffer more sporty focused suspension kit,, + in that the cars centre of gravity needs to be lowered aswell as it making the springs / torsion bars work TOGETHER...
YES i had it fitted to my S2 for a few years + it worked FABULOUSLY.. With the car considerably lower than it left the factory...
If all you want to do, is drive "enthusiasticaly" on the road, then maybee itl work [if your lucky] without lowering. BUT if you want the ultimate road track car, then re-index....
Its a REAL pity i live "up norf" as not many of you got to sample my S2 first hand. It was FAB...+ anybody that did have rides in it climbed out with a GREAT big grin from ear to ear....[
][][][][][]In fact if Appleton is around, he can vouch for it,, well almost, as the 968 is sat on the same stuff....[
][][]Reading the earlier KW spring rate thread it seems the usually supplied main springs are stiffer than 250 lbs and then there are the helper springs that are much lighter, does this give progresive spring rate and initial compresion ?, I wonder if Gaz used helper springs they would ride better.
Scott,
I'm guessing here, so don't take this as being written with any authority at all (I did fail a degree in Mech Eng - please bear this in mind!)
.... but .... I think you are working in the wrong direction.
Let's go back to your calculation, whereby with 500lb/inch springs you get the rear ride height raised by 1.5 inches.
Let's make those into 1000lb/inch springs. You would logically expect the rear ride height to be raised even more, as they would compress less - non?
BUT, to re-do your calculation, you are putting 1543lb onto 1000lb springs, so 1543 / 1000 = 1.543 inches.
Which, once divided by two springs is 0.75 inches - less increase in ride height than with the 500lb springs.
So either our opening assumption is wrong (that the ride height would increase), or I have mis-understood something fundamental (very likely), or the method of calculating the increase in ride height is wrong.
I'd be saying you need to calculate the combined lb/inch of the TB PLUS the KW springs (which may be a difficult calculation), and work out the compression of that with 1543lb on top of it, then work out the compression using just the lb/inch of the TB, and subtract the second one from the first one to find the increase in right height.
Oli.
ETA: Pauly is talking about helper springs, and the combined rate giving something akin to progressive rate springs. Either of these scenarios (helpers/progressive rate springs) would make the above calculation significantly more complex!
I'm guessing here, so don't take this as being written with any authority at all (I did fail a degree in Mech Eng - please bear this in mind!)
.... but .... I think you are working in the wrong direction.
Let's go back to your calculation, whereby with 500lb/inch springs you get the rear ride height raised by 1.5 inches.
Let's make those into 1000lb/inch springs. You would logically expect the rear ride height to be raised even more, as they would compress less - non?
BUT, to re-do your calculation, you are putting 1543lb onto 1000lb springs, so 1543 / 1000 = 1.543 inches.
Which, once divided by two springs is 0.75 inches - less increase in ride height than with the 500lb springs.
So either our opening assumption is wrong (that the ride height would increase), or I have mis-understood something fundamental (very likely), or the method of calculating the increase in ride height is wrong.
I'd be saying you need to calculate the combined lb/inch of the TB PLUS the KW springs (which may be a difficult calculation), and work out the compression of that with 1543lb on top of it, then work out the compression using just the lb/inch of the TB, and subtract the second one from the first one to find the increase in right height.
Oli.
ETA: Pauly is talking about helper springs, and the combined rate giving something akin to progressive rate springs. Either of these scenarios (helpers/progressive rate springs) would make the above calculation significantly more complex!
wolfie308
New member
Oli - now you're making my brain hurt(easily done) []
Out of curiosity, I phoned K300 yesterday to ask their view on this. Unfortunately, they wouldn't put me through to someone technical, instead asked me to write my question on their contact page and someone would get back to me. I'll post their reply if and when I receive it.
Scott - you mentioned checking the angle of my A arms.....do you mean front wishbones?... pardon my ignorance.
Cheers,
Richard
]Out of curiosity, I phoned K300 yesterday to ask their view on this. Unfortunately, they wouldn't put me through to someone technical, instead asked me to write my question on their contact page and someone would get back to me. I'll post their reply if and when I receive it.
Scott - you mentioned checking the angle of my A arms.....do you mean front wishbones?... pardon my ignorance.
Cheers,
Richard
vitesse
Active member
I am around & can vouch for the superb ride & road holding ability of the set upon Big Daves' 968-around Oulton Park at least-Druids was a doddle as was Lodge but then what a Driver.[ORIGINAL: Big Dave UK
Flippin heck... Isnt there enough threads about KW already on here.????[8|][8|][8|][8|][8|]
Yes it is GREAT stuff.. PERIOD....[
Yes it does work just as well on S2,s as well as turbos...As they are basically the same car...
It also "seems" like it will fit to a car without having it lowered on the indexing,,,, BUT + its a BIG BUT,, i dont believe it will work as the manufactureres recomended.. It is a stiffer more sporty focused suspension kit,, + in that the cars centre of gravity needs to be lowered aswell as it making the springs / torsion bars work TOGETHER...
YES i had it fitted to my S2 for a few years + it worked FABULOUSLY.. With the car considerably lower than it left the factory...
If all you want to do, is drive "enthusiasticaly" on the road, then maybee itl work [if your lucky] without lowering. BUT if you want the ultimate road track car, then re-index....
Its a REAL pity i live "up norf" as not many of you got to sample my S2 first hand. It was FAB...+ anybody that did have rides in it climbed out with a GREAT big grin from ear to ear....[
In fact if Appleton is around, he can vouch for it,, well almost, as the 968 is sat on the same stuff....[
]
appletonn
New member
ORIGINAL: Big Dave UK
Flippin heck... Isnt there enough threads about KW already on here.????[8|][8|][8|][8|][8|]
Yes it is GREAT stuff.. PERIOD....[
Yes it does work just as well on S2,s as well as turbos...As they are basically the same car...
It also "seems" like it will fit to a car without having it lowered on the indexing,,,, BUT + its a BIG BUT,, i dont believe it will work as the manufactureres recomended.. It is a stiffer more sporty focused suspension kit,, + in that the cars centre of gravity needs to be lowered aswell as it making the springs / torsion bars work TOGETHER...
YES i had it fitted to my S2 for a few years + it worked FABULOUSLY.. With the car considerably lower than it left the factory...
If all you want to do, is drive "enthusiasticaly" on the road, then maybee itl work [if your lucky] without lowering. BUT if you want the ultimate road track car, then re-index....
Its a REAL pity i live "up norf" as not many of you got to sample my S2 first hand. It was FAB...+ anybody that did have rides in it climbed out with a GREAT big grin from ear to ear....[
In fact if Appleton is around, he can vouch for it,, well almost, as the 968 is sat on the same stuff....[
Here Sir!
As Dave says, the car is extremely well planted and grippy yet the ride is better than my car on its 'old tech' Bilstein Cup set up!
Nuff debating, just buy some now!!
Great suspension, especially for a road/track car as you still get to retain some of your fillings on bumpy B roads...
Big Dave
New member
Pauly
The helper spring is JUST that...A helper....When you look at a car thats been done correctly. [I havnt seen any other],,,+ sat on the ground with the full weight of the car on it...The helper spring is fully compressed. So is doing nothing other than locating the main spring + stopping it from dropping out of its spring hat when the suspension is fully extended....
Yes there is some "trick" valving inside....Thats why it rides so well....
I suggest you get your hand in your pocket + buy some of this kit, instead of "debating the skin off a rice pudding"...Spring rates this, valving that....Its not as though you are competing + its going to make that extra couple of seconds a lap......
Maybee then youl know just what all those that actually have the kit are on about......[8|][
][][8|][][]ORIGINAL: Big Dave UK
Pauly
The helper spring is JUST that...A helper....When you look at a car thats been done correctly. [I havnt seen any other],,,+ sat on the ground with the full weight of the car on it...The helper spring is fully compressed. So is doing nothing other than locating the main spring + stopping it from dropping out of its spring hat when the suspension is fully extended....
Yes there is some "trick" valving inside....Thats why it rides so well....
I suggest you get your hand in your pocket + buy some of this kit, instead of "debating the skin off a rice pudding"...Spring rates this, valving that....Its not as though you are competing + its going to make that extra couple of seconds a lap......
Maybee then youl know just what all those that actually have the kit are on about......[8|][
I like your thinking Dave [
], now if only you weren't thinking about changing your KW's for Gaz I would know what to do [][][].
appletonn
New member
ORIGINAL: pauly
ORIGINAL: Big Dave UK
Pauly
The helper spring is JUST that...A helper....When you look at a car thats been done correctly. [I havnt seen any other],,,+ sat on the ground with the full weight of the car on it...The helper spring is fully compressed. So is doing nothing other than locating the main spring + stopping it from dropping out of its spring hat when the suspension is fully extended....
Yes there is some "trick" valving inside....Thats why it rides so well....
I suggest you get your hand in your pocket + buy some of this kit, instead of "debating the skin off a rice pudding"...Spring rates this, valving that....Its not as though you are competing + its going to make that extra couple of seconds a lap......
Maybee then youl know just what all those that actually have the kit are on about......[8|][
I like your thinking Dave [
Paul that is probably because Dave's car is now predominately a track car and hence he can afford to go even more hard core rather than trying to retain an element of B road comfort?!
Those KWs are the best compromise for a dual purpose car imho.
sawood12
New member
Oli, I think your calc shows that if you double the spring rate you halve the deflection of the spring i.e. you'd get less increase in ride height?
Anyway, it's all nonsense really as i've made so many assumptions - I just wanted to try to reason what a (very) rough ball park figure of the ride hieght adjustment would be (i.e. is it mm or inches i.e. within the adjustment range of the eccentrics), but in the cold light of day i'm not sure this does indicate anything meaningul. Yes, in reality you would have to take into consideration the effect of the TB's as the weight of the car should be shared between the TB's and the coil-overs so both springs would be deflected less.
I'm not sure what the term 'helper springs' means anyway. If both springs are sharing the weight of the car they will be contirbuting according to their relative spring rates. So if you add an extra spring you are increasing the overall spring system stiffness. What the fancy KW valving does is allow you to ride relatively stiff springs on the road without loosing your teeth or shattering your spine.
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