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Mint 944 Turbo value?

ORIGINAL: pauly
I'd disagree with you there Pauly, it is the perfect engine for the road as it has bags and bags of off-boost torque which makes it perfect for the road. Sure it would be great on track you'd barely be tapping into 20% of what the engine is capable of unless you're surname is Raikonnen or Hamilton though not Hamiltons dad as he stacked a Carrera GT the other week. I doubt there are many people on this forum or any other 944 forum has the driving abilities to get the best out of a stock 944T. The beauty of the 3.2's is that on the road you can just kick back and drive it lazy and when the fancy takes you press on the loud pedal for some instant thrills. I'd have Bens car off him in a flash if I had the readies spare. I've been cooking up alsorts of schemes in my mind to free up the readies and justify it to the other half! [/quote] I still think it's a big outlay unless you are going to use the performance, and I reckon you could use a fair bit of it somewhere like Silverstone, I think Ben suggested he had spent twice what he's asking for the car, I can see £15k ish for the mechanicals and say £5k to buy the car but where did the rest of the dosh go ?. [/quote] Doesnt seem to bad a price to pay............... my version of a 450bhp super car cost me about £30k!
 
Doesnt seem to bad a price to pay............... my version of a 450bhp super car cost me about £30k! [/quote] But which would you rather have ?.
 
ORIGINAL: Fen I'd trailer the track slag, saving 1x costs as you would be running a Patrol (replacement?) in any case.
Would be a waste, would need seat time to fully be confident with it, and it would be a very expensive toy just for trackdays. Patrol still not replaced but MOT has expired so it will probably go on ebay soon (needs radiator / wheel bearing / brake caliper and i have no enthusiasm) and a replacement found soon. 530D sport touring still likely but the price difference of diesel may make a Petrol more sensible especially considering the purchase price difference. Might get a cheap hilux surf as a stop gap whilst i find the right car, Tony
 
ORIGINAL: 944Turbo To be honest I am very tempted myself, Could combine the best bits of both cars and then sell one keep the other, but for day to day driving with occasional track days I am not sure I need a 3.2 however tempting it may be. I think Bens car could use the bigger brakes, Ledas, arb's LSD etc. Unfortunately I dont think I would have time to do the work this side of next easter either. Tony
Tony, If you are even slightly remotely serious, give me a call at the workshop, I might be able to offer you something worth considering (I must be mad) If I could choose an ideal new adopted parent for Ben's 3.2 engine, it would probably be a short list of Tony, Fen, Rick or Mark Dalton (if he was still around).. I would offer these people some serious incentives to make that adoption. There probably are not going to be any 3.2's made after the 3 engines already out there, as future 3.2's would probably be twice the price that these owners paid which were made at a loss... The point has been made, the impossible made possible. The 3rd 3.2 is being tuned to a insane level (more news soon), so any future ones need to made with an eye to being proffitable like any other job in the workshop. With the time they take to make, right down to the custom made parts and the heartache attatched, the future price would be circa £20k for the engine.. Sad but an economic fact. I know that the other 2 3.2's are probably never going to be sold, so this may be a once in a lifetime chance.
 
ORIGINAL: Fen
ORIGINAL: DivineE I have to disagree there. I do hate it when people say turbo lag spoils the cars driving because if your going quickly and having a bit of fun, like you say, you'll never encounter it but when I wanted to just cruise about in the turbo I did miss the instant throttle response of an N/A car. The 3.2 solves that.
Which is exactly why I said the 3.2 is probably a better road engine than track - on track you're going for it and can keep anything on boost so the off boost torque is not used - same on the road if you're having fun I guess - it's when you're just driving to get from one place to another that lag becomes an issue and while I agree you can change down I think a road car is much more pleasant if you can just squeeze the accelerator and get a useful amount of extra out of it rather than have to work the 'box or keep it spinning up the revs all the time.
Well I think we're all basically agreeing that the larger capacity motors are great for the road, but I will re-iterate that they're also great for the track. Specifically tighter turns. The extra tq is of massive benefit and while it's true that on the track it is much easier to keep the car in it's efficiency range, having that extra grunt (provided you can put the power down) can only be of benefit. Having said that, it's not half bad down the straights either.[:D]
 
ORIGINAL: Gordon Attar I still think it's a big outlay unless you are going to use the performance, and I reckon you could use a fair bit of it somewhere like Silverstone, I think Ben suggested he had spent twice what he's asking for the car, I can see £15k ish for the mechanicals and say £5k to buy the car but where did the rest of the dosh go ? Doesnt seem to bad a price to pay............... my version of a 450bhp super car cost me about £30k!
£15k? Admittedly I have lost a lot of money messing about buying and selling different bits as well but even so! Parts add up you know and there are a million different bits you don’t even think about that all cost money on top of the price you read about for the internals. The short engine was £10.5k before you even get to the 2.7 head (which is no easy thing to find in good condition). Then you've got the exhaust valves which can’t be the originals because they wouldn't take the heat of the turbo, new inlet valves, springs and retainers because there's no point messing about it you're going to this length. Then machining work on all of the above it starts to add up and we haven’t even got to ancillaries (turbo, MAF, piggyback, exhaust, injectors etc etc)! Don't forget all the regular bits that I had to buy new.. Water pump, oil pump, pressure control valves (some of which cost as much as £200), gaskets, rollers, belts, hoses. All original Porsche items (except the starter motor). Then add back in to that the labour for putting everything together and you come to quite a fee! Regards, Ben p.s. £30k for a 993 Turbo S (or even a regular 420bhp turbo with optional factory tune)! That was a hell of a find! I couldn't find one for sale for under £40k! p.p.s. Original, wonderful and beautiful yes, but heavy and slow with less driving pleasure than a 3.2 944 also.
 
I could have bought a nice, low miles RHD 993 TT for what I have spent on my 944 over the 7 years I've owned it, so I can easily believe what you have spent, Ben.
 
ORIGINAL: DivineE
ORIGINAL: Gordon Attar I still think it's a big outlay unless you are going to use the performance, and I reckon you could use a fair bit of it somewhere like Silverstone, I think Ben suggested he had spent twice what he's asking for the car, I can see £15k ish for the mechanicals and say £5k to buy the car but where did the rest of the dosh go ? Doesnt seem to bad a price to pay............... my version of a 450bhp super car cost me about £30k!
£15k? Admittedly I have lost a lot of money messing about buying and selling different bits but even so! Parts add up you know, there are a million different bits you dont even think about that all cost money on top of the internals and then you've got a few thousand on labour to add to that! The short engine was £10.5k before you even get to the 2.7 head which is no easy thing to find in good condition?! Then you've got the exhaust valves which cant be the originals because they wouldn't take the heat of the turbo, new inlet valves, springs and retainers aswell because there's no point messing about it you're going to this length. Then machining work on all of the above it really starts to add up and we havn't even got to anciliries! Don't forget all the regular bits that I had to buy new.. water pump, oil pump, pressure valves, gaskets, rollers, belts, hoses. All original Porsche items too (except the starter motor). Regards, Ben p.s. £30k for a 993 Turbo S (or even a regular 420bhp turbo with optional factory tune)! That was a hell of a find! I couldn't find one for sale for under £40k! p.p.s. Original, wonderful and beautiful yes, but heavy and slow with less driving pleasure than a 3.2 944 also.
Fair enough. It seems inevitable the engine won't stay in that car, if I was you I think I would break it myself and keep the engine, the rest could ease the cash flow situation.
 
ORIGINAL: pauly Fair enough. It seems inevitable the engine won't stay in that car, if I was you I think I would break it myself and keep the engine, the rest could ease the cash flow situation.
I'm happy to work with anyone to resolve any sticking point that we may come to with something they don't like about the car because in the end things like bonnet scoops and whether it has an LSD box or not are small fry next to what has been done to the car. Fortunately Jon has all the parts like spare bonnets, M030 setup etc in stock so I could always work with someone on the cost of changing the parts over if they bought the car. I am not however willing to split the car from the engine or sell it to anyone who tells me that's what they want to do. I am a v.picky person and could always pick niggles with my car but generally its in beautiful condition, I've only seen two ever that I think were in nicer condition and I've seen a lot of 944's over the past years I've owned it! It would do someone very proud and I have put a lot of time, effort, money and mental energy into her. I believe with the help of others we have created something amazing and hopfully I have given the car a chance to live on now for another 23years! I would be very upset if someone destroyed my work just to put that engine in their own car. Regards, Ben
 
ORIGINAL: DivineE I would be very upset if someone destroyed my work just to put that engine in their own car.
Heh, heh, heh, the engine in my S2 is at 183k miles now, hmmmmmmm, could do with a rebuilt 3.2 lump in it [;)]
 
ORIGINAL: DivineE II am not however willing to split the car from the engine or sell it to anyone who tells me that's what they want to do. I am a v.picky person and could always pick niggles with my car but generally its in beautiful condition, I've only seen two ever that I think were in nicer condition and I've seen a lot of 944's over the past years I've owned it! It would do someone very proud and I have put a lot of time, effort, money and mental energy into her. I believe with the help of others we have created something amazing and hopfully I have given the car a chance to live on now for another 23years! I would be very upset if someone destroyed my work just to put that engine in their own car.
I believe most people who are getting "deep" into this sort of car to the extent of spending in the medium to long term at least as much as what you spent will always prefer to find a relatively stock-ish car and progressively spend on upgrades themselves. If ever I have to part with my turbo I know it will be easier to sell it if taken back to original specification and sell the upgrades apart. Will lose much less money too and feel less bad if taking it apart myself ... I prefer to "destroy my own car" myself instead of it being done by someone else.
 
ORIGINAL: DivineE
ORIGINAL: pauly Fair enough. It seems inevitable the engine won't stay in that car, if I was you I think I would break it myself and keep the engine, the rest could ease the cash flow situation.
I'm happy to work with anyone to resolve any sticking point that we may come to with something they don't like about the car because in the end things like bonnet scoops and whether it has an LSD box or not are small fry next to what has been done to the car. Fortunately Jon has all the parts like spare bonnets, M030 setup etc in stock so I could always work with someone on the cost of changing the parts over if they bought the car. I am not however willing to split the car from the engine or sell it to anyone who tells me that's what they want to do. I am a v.picky person and could always pick niggles with my car but generally its in beautiful condition, I've only seen two ever that I think were in nicer condition and I've seen a lot of 944's over the past years I've owned it! It would do someone very proud and I have put a lot of time, effort, money and mental energy into her. I believe with the help of others we have created something amazing and hopfully I have given the car a chance to live on now for another 23years! I would be very upset if someone destroyed my work just to put that engine in their own car. Regards, Ben
O.K Ben, it was just a suggestion that meant maybe you could hang on to what was really special of your car and when finances allowed reinstall it in something else. I would think the block assembly and head are the special parts, the rest could be sourced any time in the future. If you read through this thread there's some people that are more interested in the engine than the car, not me as I don,t have a car to put it in, and I'm still considering your offer when we talked earlier on the phone. Regards, Paul.
 
I think you'll struggle even more if you want to pick and choose the buyer, Ben. I know exactly how you feel - I joked that I wanted a covenant on the woodwork in our house when we sold it as we had spent so long stripping it all back (stairs, floors, doors, architrave; you name it it was stripped), but realistically if the people who bought it have painted it all bright blue that's OK because they gave us their money and that's what we really wanted. In terms of your car as a package it's neither one thing nor another if I'm honest. Even if it's truly the best 944 you've seen in condition the value in that would be originality which requires a bone stock 2.5 engine. On the other hand if the 3.2 is the ultimate money no object engine upgrade it should really be backed up with a money no object approach to everything else that can be upgraded (suspension and brakes primarily) or the car is an unfinished project. Lastly the bonnet scoop, tinted windows and lights are basically chav mods almost exclusively seen on cars that are in sight of the car park in the sky. To make the last point worse you are an exceptionally young chap to have such a car and most of your prospective buyers will be a good 10-20 years your senior. Speaking as a member of that age group I know I'd be more comfortable dealing with someone older, times 10 when I'd just seen the bonnet, windows and lights on the car. Please don't think I'm saying that for any reason than to try to help you see it as others would. If you want/need to sell the car then I want you to do that and get the best price possible for it, but to do that you need to see it as a potential buyer would, not with a judgement coloured by your emotion and intimate knowledge of the project. I'm actually in the same situation as you in a lot of ways in that I have a car for sale that is massively modified from standard, that has cost me hugely more than it will ever be worth and that now appeals to a very narrow market. What I have done with mine is try to make the package cohesive by which I mean that all the modifications follow the same theme, so in my case if it isn't necessary it's removed and if there is a better part than standard then it gets replaced. I haven't taken that to its absolute conclusion (there's no cage and the sunroof is still in place for example), but it's mostly done and hopefully there is nothing significant that would put off someone in the narrow market the car appeals to. You can't do a lot about being young, but you need to work all the harder to make the car dispel any worries someone might have about buying it from a "young lad". If I were you (and I assume you really are committed to sell the car in the following, otherwise just keep it), I'd replace the bonnet and then advertise the engine but leave it in the car until I found a buyer (so they could drive the engine). I'd also get it dyno'd to make the most impressive set of figures and plot I could for use in the ad (using a decent dyno that people will believe, probably Thorney's as that's where Evo go these days, certainly not the "washing machine" or similar). Once sold I'd use the money to fund a replacement engine with basic cheap tuning to the 290-310bhp level and look to sell the car with that for mid-market money.
 
ORIGINAL: Fen I think you'll struggle even more if you want to pick and choose the buyer, Ben. I know exactly how you feel - I joked that I wanted a covenant on the woodwork in our house when we sold it as we had spent so long stripping it all back (stairs, floors, doors, architrave; you name it it was stripped), but realistically if the people who bought it have painted it all bright blue that's OK because they gave us their money and that's what we really wanted. In terms of your car as a package it's neither one thing nor another if I'm honest. Even if it's truly the best 944 you've seen in condition the value in that would be originality which requires a bone stock 2.5 engine. On the other hand if the 3.2 is the ultimate money no object engine upgrade it should really be backed up with a money no object approach to everything else that can be upgraded (suspension and brakes primarily) or the car is an unfinished project. Lastly the bonnet scoop, tinted windows and lights are basically chav mods almost exclusively seen on cars that are in sight of the car park in the sky. To make the last point worse you are an exceptionally young chap to have such a car and most of your prospective buyers will be a good 10-20 years your senior. Speaking as a member of that age group I know I'd be more comfortable dealing with someone older, times 10 when I'd just seen the bonnet, windows and lights on the car. Please don't think I'm saying that for any reason than to try to help you see it as others would. If you want/need to sell the car then I want you to do that and get the best price possible for it, but to do that you need to see it as a potential buyer would, not with a judgement coloured by your emotion and intimate knowledge of the project. I'm actually in the same situation as you in a lot of ways in that I have a car for sale that is massively modified from standard, that has cost me hugely more than it will ever be worth and that now appeals to a very narrow market. What I have done with mine is try to make the package cohesive by which I mean that all the modifications follow the same theme, so in my case if it isn't necessary it's removed and if there is a better part than standard then it gets replaced. I haven't taken that to its absolute conclusion (there's no cage and the sunroof is still in place for example), but it's mostly done and hopefully there is nothing significant that would put off someone in the narrow market the car appeals to. You can't do a lot about being young, but you need to work all the harder to make the car dispel any worries someone might have about buying it from a "young lad". If I were you (and I assume you really are committed to sell the car in the following, otherwise just keep it), I'd replace the bonnet and then advertise the engine but leave it in the car until I found a buyer (so they could drive the engine). I'd also get it dyno'd to make the most impressive set of figures and plot I could for use in the ad (using a decent dyno that people will believe, probably Thorney's as that's where Evo go these days, certainly not the "washing machine" or similar). Once sold I'd use the money to fund a replacement engine with basic cheap tuning to the 290-310bhp level and look to sell the car with that for mid-market money.
Harsh but true I think Fen, looking on pistonheads it seems you can buy standardish early turbo's for around £4k, he would have to find an engine and maybe pay someone to fit it, perhaps around £1k, so he's getting around £3k for the car. Putting aside what the 3.2 engine has cost to build, how much could he get for it, £8-£10k I've no idea, and I know you won't like this but I think the logical home for the engine is in a 968 [;)]. I'm interested in the car but I think it isn't finished yet and the prospect of paying for it and then spending another £2 or £3k is a bit daunting. Paul.
 
I don't know that potentially devaluing (an overvalued IMO) 968 by fitting a very expensive 3.2 turbo engine makes financial sense, especially as fitting it would be lots more work than putting it in another 944T, plus unless you get a M030 optioned 968 you'll have to change hubs etc. to fit decent brakes (the 968 has S2 brakes, the 250 Turbo has bigger ones), possibly fit a 250T 5 speeder etc. etc. If Ben's car is as nice as he suggests aside the tints and scoop I'd suggest it's worth more than 4k with a lightly tuned engine, but then again I don't think you'd get a decent 944T engine for 1k, never mind fitting. Overall I guess I agree.
 
The last couple of posts really highlight a lot of very true points. Especially that the car as it stands has a rather mixed character. To me I want my 944 to be a very tidy classic, a good example of one of my favourite models but under the skin have all new running gear capable of embarrassing anything I’m likely to come across on road or track. If I become able to keep the car the only things left I want to do to it are, fit an electronic boost controller, fine tune the fuelling on a dyno to 18psi (and get figures for what its running), upgrade to M030 except suspension (any harder and I think it will make it snappy and less pleasurable to drive, at the moment its excellent fun and doesn’t understeer like the later 250 turbo I owned), remove scoop, add a set of original turbo teledials and re-rust protect the sills and under the car to ensure the bodywork stays good for the next 20 years. I think in the flesh the dark windows look a lot less obvious and really suit the bodywork. I would be quite happy drive it in that condition for many years without anyone ever guessing its capabilities. Regards, Ben
 
Well going off the amount of work my car has had in tidying up the body work, installing the suspension and uprated brakes it would be far far less of a job to swap the engine into a chassis that has already had that work done. If I had the reddies i'd be beating your door down Ben but i'd definately be looking at doing an engine swap and selling your car with my engine in it to recoup some of the costs. That would be far easier and cheaper than swapping the bits off my car onto yours. As Fen suggested I think you are narrowing your market down too much by not selling to someone who wants to do that. Obviously you want to make sure that the engine goes to a good home (and the rest of the car for that matter because it sounds like a peach despite the questionable adornments), someone who is sympathetic to what it is and what it stands for rather than someone who is just going to abuse it and not appreciate it - or worse still, install it into a 968!! That would be a complete and utter travesty.
 
ORIGINAL: sawood12 or worse still, install it into a 968!! That would be a complete and utter travesty.
Bunch of heathens :ROFLMAO: I think the 968 Turbo looks the dogs danglies. I thought long and hard about fitting the Clubautosport 968 conversion to my car after the accident and making a Turbo RS replica. Would have been cheaper and much lighter.
 

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