Excellent! Welcome on board! I can be a bit abrupt, possibly even appearing arrogant which doesn't go over well with everyone, especially people who don't know me, and on rereading my "olive branch" it was a bit "thorny" too and it was definitely in danger of being a pot in a glass house throwing stones at a black kettle or whatever. I suspect we might get on famously!
Mint 944 Turbo value?
- Thread starter piperboxster
- Start date
pauljmcnulty
Active member
That explains eveything! [
][] Seriously, I think you'll find the 944 community incredibly passionate about the cars - with good reason, as a well-sorted 944 is as good as a cheap classic will ever get. The problem we all have is that e-bay has opened the world to the possibility of the £800 shiny-red Porsche, with all the crap about "fully-galvanised body" and "bullet-proof mechanicals. We see so many people here who arrive with a bargain, then realise the depth of the hole they've dug themselves into, and two months later the car is being scrapped. You need to think of a 944, or 968, as a long-term prospect that's worth spending some money buying and maintaining. They are truly fantastic cars when running well, but the badge leads to serious disappointment if you buy a bad one or expect it to run for years with no servicing. They are £30k-plus cars, but with virtually zero depreciation. Work out the real costs during your years of ownership and it seems a bit pointless to worry about the odd couple of thou between a decent car and one that's had all the known weaknesses addressed? As someone with a background in the trade you'll know just how much it's worth to you when a punter walks in with a car to sell. I'd guess that the whole "pride and joy" thing would set the cash-tills ringing in your head? I'm very careful about any cars I endorse in any way, there is an obvious conflict of interest when you are a volunteer. One thing I'll never do is in any way endorse a car unless I've seen it's last years of ownership and history played out within the Club. Might be a bag of bolts, but it's a safer bet than zero feedback?Thanks for the clean slate[], regarding the trade thing it was 20+ years ago when I was allegedly, a trade buyer and a private seller, the law quite rightly has tightened up a bit now, I've been banging on for a long time about wanting one of these cars but the truth is my desire comes and goes, I've posted this before somewhere I know but a couple of years ago an early turbo was advertised 3 miles up the road from me, I wasn't looking for one but went to look anyway, it was owned by a guy in his 70s I think, 70 or 80k miles, not a ding or spot of rust I could see but an unusual colour and what I thought were nasty wheels (fuchs) I think I could have bought it for around £4k ish but I reckoned I could find better, I can but not under £7k. So there you have it that first car has clouded the issue, I've gradually come to terms with spending £8k plus on a turbo but it will have to be something special or a 968 for more money which I know won't perform like a 300 bhp MO30 turbo but I think looks nicer, without getting into the value thing why do 968s cost so much more ?.
], regarding the trade thing it was 20+ years ago when I was allegedly, a trade buyer and a private seller, the law quite rightly has tightened up a bit now, I've been banging on for a long time about wanting one of these cars but the truth is my desire comes and goes, I've posted this before somewhere I know but a couple of years ago an early turbo was advertised 3 miles up the road from me, I wasn't looking for one but went to look anyway, it was owned by a guy in his 70s I think, 70 or 80k miles, not a ding or spot of rust I could see but an unusual colour and what I thought were nasty wheels (fuchs) I think I could have bought it for around £4k ish but I reckoned I could find better, I can but not under £7k. So there you have it that first car has clouded the issue, I've gradually come to terms with spending £8k plus on a turbo but it will have to be something special or a 968 for more money which I know won't perform like a 300 bhp MO30 turbo but I think looks nicer, without getting into the value thing why do 968s cost so much more ?.
sawood12
New member
Well looks are in the eye of the beholder so I might have to disagree with you there, but on the cost issue that is a good question. I think alot of people have been conned into think they are buying a superior car. Granted the 968 did move things on a bit, the engine is nice for example, however you should consider the 968 as a facelift S2 rather than an all new and improved car. I think there are a number of reasons why some percieve the 968 as a better buy, they are younger for a start and were built in fewer numbers, and due to the higher production numbers and longer production run of 944's there are alot of tatty ones out there that have lead hard lives. But when you consider you can get a very nice S2 for the £4k - £5k mark and good turbo's from around £7k - £10k I personally think you'd be stark raving bonkers to spend another £3k - £10k or so on a 968 unless you specifically want a 968. A 968 wont drive any better than an S2 or a turbo so why not spend less, have a bit more money left over out of your buget to spruce up any parts or bodywork that needs attention and spend the remainder of your buget on petrol to drive and enjoy the thing. You'll get far more smiles per mile. There is also alot or rubbish out there about the 968 being rust proof comapred to the S2's and turbo's that are showing signs of sills and wings that are susceptable to rust. I think this is rubbish and the only reason why this appears to be the case is because 968's havn't been around as long yet and also the majority of 968's seem to be garage queens rather than cars that are driven all year round in all weathers. Apart from the bottom of the front wings there is no reason I see why a 968 will be any less susceptable to corrosion than an S2 or turbo. I don't mean to sound like i'm bashing the 968 - I don't intend to, I actually quite like them, however I prefer 944's and get a bit frustrated about the 968 vs 944 propoganda out there.
I'd have to agree with most of what Scott said. Also Porsche either had a masterful marketing team or hit the market at just the right time with the 968 ClubSport. If the truth be told it's even more like an S2 than the other 968 models as it uses 944 door cards (968 ones have a different pattern of stitching on them) and the 944 dash (identical to a 968 one except the 968 has an outside temp gauge where the clock is in the 944, but it's a clock in the CS). Actually the 968 might have a 180mph speedo where the S2 had a 160, but the 250 Turbo had a 180 one so it's still a 944 part. The irony of the CS is that it's actually slightly heavier than an S2. We sometimes wind the 968 boys up by joking about this but the 968 was genuinely going to be the 944 S3 if that gives an indication of how similar they really are. The cosmetics were the reason it was given a new model designation - it really is an evolved S2 in a frock. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and in my opinion the 968 has a face only a mother could love (have you seen one with the lights raised?) but the back end is an improvement over the 944. When the 944T was launched and the smoother front bumper was added the job was never finished and the rear bumper carried the rubber strip that matched the 944 Lux (and 924) front bumper right to the end of production. To my eye it always looks a bit like a car with an aftermarket front spoiler to a small extent because of this. I'm not sure I agree that the engine in the 968 is anything special. Porsche gave it more modern management, (crude by modern standards) variable valve timing and replaced the AFM with a MAF yet it only claimed to make an extra 30bhp and in practice it struggles to achieve that. It may have improved torque characteristics (I've not got enough experience of them to know how much real world difference that really makes, if any), but as I said in an earlier post if that was the case, and given that the S2 was never criticised for lack of torque that I'm aware of, why did it need the extra cog in the 'box? On the subject of that 'box it gives pinion bearing trouble. Some cars haven't had it (yet?) and many have been fixed, but it's still an issue. Corrosion: I think the 968 will be worse. I believe that it has as many traps as the 944S2/Turbo (primarily the plastic along the bottom of the sill which leaves too small a gap for drainage which clogs and leaves the sills wet). I say that because Porsche didn't know when they designed the 968 that they had a corrosion problem on the S2 & Turbo so I doubt very much they addressed the issue. I say it will be worse because the big plastic trims hide what is going on behind and it's bad enough in a 944 when little blisters appear on the surface to alert an owner so imagine what it will be like when the plastic trim has got loose through the holes rusting out. Historically people paid more as the car was newer, looked less dated, probably that it didn't look like a 924 with it's unwarranted "it's a VW/Audi, not a Porsche" stigma and because of the hype around the CS. Nowadays I don't understand the reasons as they aren't new enough that they don't have old car issues and they look dated in their own rigth, but I assume it's because people who don't know any better assume it's a better car than the 944 because it's a new model when it's just a facelift. I guess you don't see tatty ones around whereas you do see tatty 924s and increasingly 944s (which look the same to most normal people anyway) and that probably stops them having their value dragged down like the earleir cars do. Maybe it's even because they look very slightly like a 993 from the front and the 993 was the last of the recognisable 911s before they fitted radiators and ruined the blood line, and hence enjoys strong values because of it. Like Scott I have nothing against the 968 and I have several 968 owning friends, but I'm open with them that I can't see any logical reason why you'd pay a premium for the car. Maybe once when rich blokes for whom money was no object wanted the latest thing then fine, but if money is no object to you today such that you'd be prepared to pay 5k extra (or more) for something because it' 13 rather than 15 years old and/or looks different then why are you looking at an old Porsche based on a 30+ year old design that was from the black sheep side of the family in the first place? Bottom line is that you can't do to / with a 968 anything that you can't do to / with an S2, and with the S2 you have the value of the car again left over to spend doing it. You might have better residuals in the 968, but I've been predicting the backside falling out of their values for a while and while I've not been right so far I think it's only a matter of time, especially now with global recession round the corner, sky rocketing oil prices and ever falling Boxster values.
I think you have both pretty much summed it up there, the only thing I would add is colour can play a big part when it comes to the 944, I,ve seen shades that work on a 968 that I don't like on a 944, and no I'm not saying which colours []. Changing the subject I wonder if the 3.2 turbo on PH will sell ?, not too far from me either.
]. Changing the subject I wonder if the 3.2 turbo on PH will sell ?, not too far from me either.
To be honest I am very tempted myself, Could combine the best bits of both cars and then sell one keep the other, but for day to day driving with occasional track days I am not sure I need a 3.2 however tempting it may be. I think Bens car could use the bigger brakes, Ledas, arb's LSD etc. Unfortunately I dont think I would have time to do the work this side of next easter either. Tony
I have exactly the right home for the engine and I have actually spoken to Ben in the past about buying it. I have also considered buying Ben's entire car and putting it back to standard and "outing" it leaving me with the engine, but ultimately it's a valuable asset and I don't have the inclination to spend that much (nor anything near it) on my 944.
Must admit the thought of buying both cars - yours and Bens also occured. But I would probably end up trying to justify reasons for keeping all of them once bits had been swapped around. [] One near standard for general running about (16psi 300bhp sensible economy standard unleaded), one with similar power to what I have now for day to day high speed travelling, and one mental trag slag for weekend fun - see it almost makes sense [&:] Its only when you factor in the 3 x insurance, 3 x servicing, 3 x tax, parking etc. that it starts to fall apart as a plan. Anyone want to a buy a bonnet scoop? As long as it goes for 6k the plan is in place [] Tony
] One near standard for general running about (16psi 300bhp sensible economy standard unleaded), one with similar power to what I have now for day to day high speed travelling, and one mental trag slag for weekend fun - see it almost makes sense [&:] Its only when you factor in the 3 x insurance, 3 x servicing, 3 x tax, parking etc. that it starts to fall apart as a plan. Anyone want to a buy a bonnet scoop? As long as it goes for 6k the plan is in place [] TonyIndeed good to see you back in here Fen. As for spending money on 944 turbos, I could perhaps lend some qualified advice. Not sure how much the 952 sold for in the UK when first released, but my guess is more than the equivalent 911 of the day and probably not much less than the 930? Certainly out here they sold for a fortune and it was not a good era for high priced cars so consequentially not too many drove through the dealers gates. My point being even if it costs 10k or a bit more, provided it's in mint (or close to it) condition you are getting a bargain relatively. I think the line in the sand is always forced induction. If you drive an S2 or 968 and find them fast enough, my strong suggestion is to buy one of those (S2), put some KW's in there and enjoy yourself + have a fair bit of change left over. On the other hand if you go for a ride in a decent 944t or better still a modified one, be prepared to fall under the spell of the Boost fiend. Your life won't be the same and you will likely sit atop the slippery slope that most of us are sliding down (as we speak) and think, "Hmm I wonder how I can make this thing go faster?". Therein lies the rub. I would say that I am further down this slope than almost anybody and if I had my time again I would seriously consider the N/A approach. If you want something really quick and to use it in anger on the track I would actually look at some piece of Jap stuff that is SOOOO much cheaper to make fast. If you can handle a pretty clean, basic 944t without ever modifying it then you are a better man than I Gunga Din!
Hey All, Ed - Thanks for the plug [] I thought long and hard before I placed my car on the market, its my pride and joy and look forward to getting behind the wheel as much as possible. Its also my daily driver so I always keep on top of maintaining it, I do mostly motorway miles for my job. It has been well looked after during my ownership and also the previous owners. I wouldn't say its a mint concourse car and I think the price reflects this but its also not a "dog" which someone has used in this thread as a blanket statement to cars within a certain price bracket. I agree there are some unscruplous sellers out there with enticing phrases throughout their adverts. You can't tar us all with the same brush, the only way to find out if a car is worth the asking price is to talk to people who know of the car or heavens forbid actually make an appointment with the seller to look at it. If you don't have the confidence to know what to look for then ask someone more knowledgeable to accompany you, maybe even a Tipec or PCGB member who is local to the car can go and have a preliminiary look for you. Its hard for sellers as well, I always dread selling cars, I'm always aware of the tyre kicker syndrome and guess its even worse when you are selling a Porsche. Anyway I have a genuine reason for sale and there aren't any big bills looming for the potential buyer, that is not why I am selling. So if someone wanted a late standard 250 turbo to take away and enjoy straight away as a daily driver or weekend car mine might be worth a look []. Regards Dave K.
] I thought long and hard before I placed my car on the market, its my pride and joy and look forward to getting behind the wheel as much as possible. Its also my daily driver so I always keep on top of maintaining it, I do mostly motorway miles for my job. It has been well looked after during my ownership and also the previous owners. I wouldn't say its a mint concourse car and I think the price reflects this but its also not a "dog" which someone has used in this thread as a blanket statement to cars within a certain price bracket. I agree there are some unscruplous sellers out there with enticing phrases throughout their adverts. You can't tar us all with the same brush, the only way to find out if a car is worth the asking price is to talk to people who know of the car or heavens forbid actually make an appointment with the seller to look at it. If you don't have the confidence to know what to look for then ask someone more knowledgeable to accompany you, maybe even a Tipec or PCGB member who is local to the car can go and have a preliminiary look for you. Its hard for sellers as well, I always dread selling cars, I'm always aware of the tyre kicker syndrome and guess its even worse when you are selling a Porsche. Anyway I have a genuine reason for sale and there aren't any big bills looming for the potential buyer, that is not why I am selling. So if someone wanted a late standard 250 turbo to take away and enjoy straight away as a daily driver or weekend car mine might be worth a look []. Regards Dave K.
Diver944
Active member
It's from Northampton, home of the 3.2 Turbo [
] It needs someone who really, really wants a highly modified 944T and is prepared to pay top dollar in the current market. I definately agree that the scoop will put off most people who do not know the car, they will disbelieve all the other information and look no further. It could really do with an up to date Dyno run as well, those figures are woefully low for a expense that high. Ben already has a larger exhaust and his has a larger turbocharger than mine so at normal boost it should easily top my bhp figures. I actually quite like the can can red interior and the mildly tinted windows [8D]That scoop is basically superflous and even possibly counter productive. If I were Ben I'd see if it could be ditched, but I guess there's some silly placed hole under there. Pity. I agree with you Paul in that it will deter some buyers, but I'd imagine that the only people that would consider this car already know of it and it's motor so would overlook it. I think someone should buy it and do the swap then sell one of the cars. It's cheap for what's in it.
The monster engine aroused my interest initially but unless you are into trackdays I think it would be hard to reap the benefit on the road, sure it would be nice to know you could whup almost anything but other than the odd squirt how often could you really gun it on the queens highway ?.ORIGINAL: Diver944It's from Northampton, home of the 3.2 Turbo [
Hi, I'm not sure if your car is on PH but if it is and has no mileage listed I always tend to think it could be galactic and tend not to call.ORIGINAL: dlknight Hey All, Ed - Thanks for the plug [
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