Mint 944 Turbo value?

[sawood12]

ORIGINAL: pauly

ORIGINAL: Diver944

ORIGINAL: pauly Changing the subject I wonder if the 3.2 turbo on PH will sell ?, not too far from me either.

It's from Northampton, home of the 3.2 Turbo [] It needs someone who really, really wants a highly modified 944T and is prepared to pay top dollar in the current market. I definately agree that the scoop will put off most people who do not know the car, they will disbelieve all the other information and look no further. It could really do with an up to date Dyno run as well, those figures are woefully low for a expense that high. Ben already has a larger exhaust and his has a larger turbocharger than mine so at normal boost it should easily top my bhp figures. I actually quite like the can can red interior and the mildly tinted windows [8D]

The monster engine aroused my interest initially but unless you are into trackdays I think it would be hard to reap the benefit on the road, sure it would be nice to know you could whup almost anything but other than the odd squirt how often could you really gun it on the queens highway ?.

I'd disagree with you there Pauly, it is the perfect engine for the road as it has bags and bags of off-boost torque which makes it perfect for the road. Sure it would be great on track you'd barely be tapping into 20% of what the engine is capable of unless you're surname is Raikonnen or Hamilton though not Hamiltons dad as he stacked a Carrera GT the other week. I doubt there are many people on this forum or any other 944 forum has the driving abilities to get the best out of a stock 944T. The beauty of the 3.2's is that on the road you can just kick back and drive it lazy and when the fancy takes you press on the loud pedal for some instant thrills. I'd have Bens car off him in a flash if I had the readies spare. I've been cooking up alsorts of schemes in my mind to free up the readies and justify it to the other half!

 

[pauly]

[/quote] I'd disagree with you there Pauly, it is the perfect engine for the road as it has bags and bags of off-boost torque which makes it perfect for the road. Sure it would be great on track you'd barely be tapping into 20% of what the engine is capable of unless you're surname is Raikonnen or Hamilton though not Hamiltons dad as he stacked a Carrera GT the other week. I doubt there are many people on this forum or any other 944 forum has the driving abilities to get the best out of a stock 944T. The beauty of the 3.2's is that on the road you can just kick back and drive it lazy and when the fancy takes you press on the loud pedal for some instant thrills. I'd have Bens car off him in a flash if I had the readies spare. I've been cooking up alsorts of schemes in my mind to free up the readies and justify it to the other half! [/quote] I still think it's a big outlay unless you are going to use the performance, and I reckon you could use a fair bit of it somewhere like Silverstone, I think Ben suggested he had spent twice what he's asking for the car, I can see £15k ish for the mechanicals and say £5k to buy the car but where did the rest of the dosh go ?.

 

[333pg333]

ORIGINAL: sawood12

ORIGINAL: pauly

ORIGINAL: Diver944

ORIGINAL: pauly Changing the subject I wonder if the 3.2 turbo on PH will sell ?, not too far from me either.

It's from Northampton, home of the 3.2 Turbo [] It needs someone who really, really wants a highly modified 944T and is prepared to pay top dollar in the current market. I definately agree that the scoop will put off most people who do not know the car, they will disbelieve all the other information and look no further. It could really do with an up to date Dyno run as well, those figures are woefully low for a expense that high. Ben already has a larger exhaust and his has a larger turbocharger than mine so at normal boost it should easily top my bhp figures. I actually quite like the can can red interior and the mildly tinted windows [8D]

The monster engine aroused my interest initially but unless you are into trackdays I think it would be hard to reap the benefit on the road, sure it would be nice to know you could whup almost anything but other than the odd squirt how often could you really gun it on the queens highway ?.

I'd disagree with you there Pauly, it is the perfect engine for the road as it has bags and bags of off-boost torque which makes it perfect for the road. Sure it would be great on track you'd barely be tapping into 20% of what the engine is capable of unless you're surname is Raikonnen or Hamilton though not Hamiltons dad as he stacked a Carrera GT the other week. I doubt there are many people on this forum or any other 944 forum has the driving abilities to get the best out of a stock 944T. The beauty of the 3.2's is that on the road you can just kick back and drive it lazy and when the fancy takes you press on the loud pedal for some instant thrills. I'd have Bens car off him in a flash if I had the readies spare. I've been cooking up alsorts of schemes in my mind to free up the readies and justify it to the other half!

G'wan Scott, Make it happen. You know you want to.[]

 

[sawood12]

ORIGINAL: pauly

I'd disagree with you there Pauly, it is the perfect engine for the road as it has bags and bags of off-boost torque which makes it perfect for the road. Sure it would be great on track you'd barely be tapping into 20% of what the engine is capable of unless you're surname is Raikonnen or Hamilton though not Hamiltons dad as he stacked a Carrera GT the other week. I doubt there are many people on this forum or any other 944 forum has the driving abilities to get the best out of a stock 944T. The beauty of the 3.2's is that on the road you can just kick back and drive it lazy and when the fancy takes you press on the loud pedal for some instant thrills. I'd have Bens car off him in a flash if I had the readies spare. I've been cooking up alsorts of schemes in my mind to free up the readies and justify it to the other half! [/quote] I still think it's a big outlay unless you are going to use the performance, and I reckon you could use a fair bit of it somewhere like Silverstone, I think Ben suggested he had spent twice what he's asking for the car, I can see £15k ish for the mechanicals and say £5k to buy the car but where did the rest of the dosh go ?. [/quote]

 

[Peter Empson]

You ony have too much power when you have more than grip, and that's generally pretty easy to solve! Any straight on road or track will let you reap the benefits of this sort of grunt and as mentioned the low down torque and instant throttle response that this conversion apparently has will make that power very accessible.

 

[sawood12]

ORIGINAL: pauly I still think it's a big outlay unless you are going to use the performance, and I reckon you could use a fair bit of it somewhere like Silverstone, I think Ben suggested he had spent twice what he's asking for the car, I can see £15k ish for the mechanicals and say £5k to buy the car but where did the rest of the dosh go ?.

Yes but if you look at it from the angle that £5k ish for a good 944 turbo is just rediculously cheap. Some people will not think twice about spending upto 3 times that much on a similarly aged and milage 911 (or even a 968) which is an inferior car in just about every way. No care ever made a sensible business case. They always cost you money and never make you any. I'd prefer to look at it this way - £5k for a good turbo - bargain. To buy anything more modern with similar performance you'd be looking at £15k at least, and then you wont have the superb chassis the 944 has. £10k - £15k on 3.2ltr rebuild - that's less than 10yrs worth of serviceing on a Mitusbishi Evo or a Fezza and you are getting a brand new engine that is substantially stronger and more powerful. So after an outlay of say £25 - £30k by the time you've added a few other odds and sods like brake&suspension upgrades into the mix, what at you'll end up with is a car that, if driven well, would be capable of giving £100k supercars a run for their money, and wont loose you quater of a house in 12 months depreciation. Absolute bargain if you ask me. Patrick - you're absolutely right! but unfortunately the bank balance is controlled by the wife and kid! You know how it works when you get married - whats hers is hers and what's yours is hers. I managed to pull the wool over her eyes with the KW, but I don't think i'd get away with it a second time!

 

[DivineE]

Hi Guys, Sorry I have missed this thread lately last time I read it was before any talk of my car. I would say that contrary to that early comment the 3.2 engine actually makes much more sense on the road than the standard 2.5 turbo. The standard turbo is very fussy with the gears and has to be kept at high rpms to get any advantage over the more flexible but sedate S2. I once pulled out of a juntion in the 3.2 in 2nd gear when I wasn't concentrating and didn't notice I'd done it until I waved my hand over thin air trying to pull it out of first and put it in 2nd! The 3.2 really doesn't care what gear your in anywhere and better still will hurl itself at the horrizon at the slightest flex of your toe in just about any gear. Although I've never been in anything which matches the surge of G force when you put your foot down its not really until you compare it to something else that you realise just how fast it really is! Usually the difference between something like a hot hatch and a real sports car is always less than you expect when you try to pass someone who is at full throttle. However when I got into a bit of playful driving with a new 4.2 XK, which is not a slow car, I could hear the V8 roaring hard and I was just chuckling uncontrollably (not helping the increasing fear of my passenger) knowing just how much more flex I had on the throttle pedal. When I saw a gap and floored the throttle I could not believe how quickly I caught and past him! The acceleration in 4th gear was so hard that only when I let off did realise both me and the passenger had been holding our breath and afterwards she said it had given her whip lash! Just thinking back DAMN was it fast! Regards, Ben

 

[Fen]

Having been out as a passenger when Paul S was running his in when it was the first 3.2 on the road I actually think the 3.2 is probably a better road engine than track. That isn't to say it wouldn't work on track, but with a track car you can easily accommodate a laggy, peaky power delivery that gives nothing below 4,000 rpm. Where the 3.2 excels is that it makes a Turbo more tractable not only than it used to be but more than even an S2, plus it is properly quick, which an S2 isn't. To return to an earlier point I can't agree that the 944T is the performance bargain claimed above. It's good bang for the buck, but it isn't unparalleled. I drove a mate's Turbo at the 'Ring a couple of years ago, not long after it made 305bhp on the rollers of truth. Going up Ex Muhle when I was alone and the 944's owner was a passenger in a standard 1995 M3 (non-Evo) in front I was only just gaining. Non Evo e36 M3's are cheap. You could also get a number of other cars that would match 944T performance for similar money; 300ZX, Supra etc. Now I'm the first to point out they are possibly not as desirable, but the fact remains. If you turn the budget up to £20k+ there are any number of cars you could have that would compete, both in performance and desirablilty.

 

[pauly]

ORIGINAL: Fen Having been out as a passenger when Paul S was running his in when it was the first 3.2 on the road I actually think the 3.2 is probably a better road engine than track. That isn't to say it wouldn't work on track, but with a track car you can easily accommodate a laggy, peaky power delivery that gives nothing below 4,000 rpm. Where the 3.2 excels is that it makes a Turbo more tractable not only than it used to be but more than even an S2, plus it is properly quick, which an S2 isn't. To return to an earlier point I can't agree that the 944T is the performance bargain claimed above. It's good bang for the buck, but it isn't unparalleled. I drove a mate's Turbo at the 'Ring a couple of years ago, not long after it made 305bhp on the rollers of truth. Going up Ex Muhle when I was alone and the 944's owner was a passenger in a standard 1995 M3 (non-Evo) in front I was only just gaining. Non Evo e36 M3's are cheap. You could also get a number of other cars that would match 944T performance for similar money; 300ZX, Supra etc. Now I'm the first to point out they are possibly not as desirable, but the fact remains. If you turn the budget up to £20k+ there are any number of cars you could have that would compete, both in performance and desirablilty.

I think you can easily match the performance for less than £10k, a friend has an 02 imprezza STI or whatever they are called and I was pretty suprised how quick it was down a twisty backroad, not as desirable or reliable probably but good fun and great in the wet I would think.

 

[333pg333]

You really have to decide what car you want in the end. You can get a Suby or EVO for pretty cheap and the mods are really cheap compared to anything decent that we contemplate. I guess something to consider is the longevity of the prospective purchase compared to some of the alternatives out there. If you want to hang onto the car for a decent amount of time then Ben's car seems a bargain to me still. I bet in a further 10 years time the Porsche doors will still close with that definitive 'chunk' rather than the cheap 'clank' of the Jap examples. As far as a bigger bore for the road v's track, well I think you can have your cake and eat it in this case. The larger capacity motor is definitely way better on the road no questions. Even with 'only' 3.0L I notice a dramatic rise in tq and as Ben describes, it really is just a matter of moving the right foot and away you go. The change from a mostly stock 2.5L and stock 951 gearing is remarkable. If you want something that is also great for the track and you don't do a lot of high speed autobahn touring then I also can recommend changing out to the S2 crown wheel and pinion which shortens the final drive markedly. It's fantastic in traffic and open road, but really good on the track. While not totally instantaneous response like a high performance n/a car, it's not far off and I defy someone to show me the difference. Then you can also do exhaust mods and increase the VE by doing all manner of enhancements to the head/cam and intercooler plus lightening the drivetrain increases the ability to rev through the range. All those mods can be done at a later date. The base 3.2L will be a handful from the get go. One of you guys should buy this car in my opinion or Ben should somehow manage to keep it in the family. Good luck to you all.

 

[Fen]

ORIGINAL: pauly I think you can easily match the performance for less than £10k, a friend has an 02 imprezza STI or whatever they are called and I was pretty suprised how quick it was down a twisty backroad, not as desirable or reliable probably but good fun and great in the wet I would think.

You're right, but I'd never suggest it as it's my absolute pet-hate car. That is born of having owned one rather than received wisdom, and it was an RB5 so possibly the best respected variant bar the P1. It was awful, and back then relatively expensive and desirable so now that you can add every chav in the land being able to afford one they are even less desirable. It does support my point though.

 

[pauly]

ORIGINAL: Fen

ORIGINAL: pauly I think you can easily match the performance for less than £10k, a friend has an 02 imprezza STI or whatever they are called and I was pretty suprised how quick it was down a twisty backroad, not as desirable or reliable probably but good fun and great in the wet I would think.

You're right, but I'd never suggest it as it's my absolute pet-hate car. That is born of having owned one rather than received wisdom, and it was an RB5 so possibly the best respected variant bar the P1. It was awful, and back then relatively expensive and desirable so now that you can add every chav in the land being able to afford one they are even less desirable. It does support my point though.

Scoobs don,t do it for me either, if I was going jap I would get a skyline or 350Z but I want something pre 2001 so I don't get raped for the road tax every year on my weekend toy.

 

[Fen]

I told you we'd get along. I sort of fancy a GT-R of some sort, and were it not for the fact an S2 owner who posts very occasionally here had a bad experience with a 350z I might have seriously considered one of them, but I don't generally do Jap. I did have a 246bhp 1993 MX5 with a turbo a couple of years ago which was a blast (and worth way less than the numbers we're discussing here).

 

[pauly]

ORIGINAL: Fen I told you we'd get along. I sort of fancy a GT-R of some sort, and were it not for the fact an S2 owner who posts very occasionally here had a bad experience with a 350z I might have seriously considered one of them, but I don't generally do Jap. I did have a 246bhp 1993 MX5 with a turbo a couple of years ago which was a blast (and worth way less than the numbers we're discussing here).

Lol, I've already got one jap in the garage but it's only got 2 wheels, I reckon it would have Ben's car though. I think the jap stuff is good value for money but they can look very dated and plasticy as they reach 10 years +.

 

[Neil Haughey]

IMHO a turbo with lots of power makes for one very special fast GT. This is where these cars really excel. They are comfortable at speed, if the aircon works comfortable all year round. Quiet even compared to new cars at speed, and have handling even from standard more then good enough for road use. I was driving Tref's car the other day and it was a revelation in ways I didn't expect. I left with the feeling that I would much rather drive a 944 turbo on a 3K mile trip across Europe then race it round a track. Perhaps because I have spent my whole life around turbo cars I didn't have any problems with lag (it is a myth IMHO created by ppl that can't drive properly) For 20 grand of spend you can get a XTR or similar insane bike engined mid engine track tool that will make any of our 944's look like a tractor. Anyone building a super 944 for track use really needs to think carefully IMHO about what they are trying to achieve and wether the outlay is sensible for the intended purpose.

 

[pauly]

ORIGINAL: Neil Haughey IMHO a turbo with lots of power makes for one very special fast GT. Perhaps because I have spent my whole life around turbo cars I didn't have any problems with lag (it is a myth IMHO created by ppl that can't drive properly)

Yep I'm inclined to agree with you, if you are in the right gear and don't have a very large turbo, boost can be fairly instant, if you're not in the right gear how long does it take to change down a gear or 3.

 

[Fen]

The standard (250 especially) has an issue, probably much magnified by the years of wear on the wastegate, but that can largely be tuned out of them for a relatively small outlay.

 

[333pg333]

Lag is a word for people who can't change gears![]

 

[DivineE]

I have to disagree there. I do hate it when people say turbo lag spoils the cars driving because if your going quickly and having a bit of fun, like you say, you'll never encounter it but when I wanted to just cruise about in the turbo I did miss the instant throttle response of an N/A car. The 3.2 solves that.

 

[Fen]

ORIGINAL: DivineE I have to disagree there. I do hate it when people say turbo lag spoils the cars driving because if your going quickly and having a bit of fun, like you say, you'll never encounter it but when I wanted to just cruise about in the turbo I did miss the instant throttle response of an N/A car. The 3.2 solves that.

Which is exactly why I said the 3.2 is probably a better road engine than track - on track you're going for it and can keep anything on boost so the off boost torque is not used - same on the road if you're having fun I guess - it's when you're just driving to get from one place to another that lag becomes an issue and while I agree you can change down I think a road car is much more pleasant if you can just squeeze the accelerator and get a useful amount of extra out of it rather than have to work the 'box or keep it spinning up the revs all the time.