Doesn't sound like they are offering a lot. Your PCGB membership would get you a 10% discount at most OPC's.
Mis-fire Problem
- Thread starter JColbourne
- Start date
Doesn't sound like they are offering a lot. Your PCGB membership would get you a 10% discount at most OPC's.
JColbourne
New member
Hi Richard,
I asked for the PCGB discount upfront anyway and was told they didn't normally apply this to new engines but I could have the 10% discount that they offer to the trade.
I also sent a lengthy letter and 13 other supporting photos showing the grind marks in close-up and more detail and a further imperfection in the bearing support metal to Customer Assistance (now there's an oxymoron if ever I heard one!!!) in Reading today. I quoted the Sale of Goods Act 1979 and stated that the marks on the crank cradle could only have been done at the point of manufacture or assembly and certainly before the car's normal lifetime began. I also pointed out that only areas that had cracks in showed signs of grinding. Hence the part in question was and still is, not "fit for purpose".
The photos I included clearly show ancilliary marks left by a grinding tool on the curved parts of the crank cradle section involved. (Example attached).
Their attitiude was that's just your opinion, prove it and we're not changing our decision. They invited me to get an independent inspection done if I wanted to pursue the matter but there would be no guarantee that they would change their decision.
They suggested I contact the Institute of Automotive Engineering Assessors www.iaea.uk.com for an independent assessment. The assessor I eventually talked to said that I'd be better off contacting the Institution of Mechanical Engineering as my situation was more metallurgy based than the situations the IAEA advise on.
I was also advised by Dave Griffiths that his contact in Stuttgart's experience was that sending any complaint direct to the Engineering or QA departments would probably be unproductive.
It makes me think a direct approach to Dr. Wiedeking might be worth trying!!! Who knows??
Rgds
John
I asked for the PCGB discount upfront anyway and was told they didn't normally apply this to new engines but I could have the 10% discount that they offer to the trade.
I also sent a lengthy letter and 13 other supporting photos showing the grind marks in close-up and more detail and a further imperfection in the bearing support metal to Customer Assistance (now there's an oxymoron if ever I heard one!!!) in Reading today. I quoted the Sale of Goods Act 1979 and stated that the marks on the crank cradle could only have been done at the point of manufacture or assembly and certainly before the car's normal lifetime began. I also pointed out that only areas that had cracks in showed signs of grinding. Hence the part in question was and still is, not "fit for purpose".
The photos I included clearly show ancilliary marks left by a grinding tool on the curved parts of the crank cradle section involved. (Example attached).
Their attitiude was that's just your opinion, prove it and we're not changing our decision. They invited me to get an independent inspection done if I wanted to pursue the matter but there would be no guarantee that they would change their decision.
They suggested I contact the Institute of Automotive Engineering Assessors www.iaea.uk.com for an independent assessment. The assessor I eventually talked to said that I'd be better off contacting the Institution of Mechanical Engineering as my situation was more metallurgy based than the situations the IAEA advise on.
I was also advised by Dave Griffiths that his contact in Stuttgart's experience was that sending any complaint direct to the Engineering or QA departments would probably be unproductive.
It makes me think a direct approach to Dr. Wiedeking might be worth trying!!! Who knows??
Rgds
John
What? And give away something of that 2.11 BILLION Euros profit last year?
JColbourne
New member
What a victory that would be though!! As the situation is developing it makes me think that the Customer Assistance personnel are bonused on the number of claims they can reject and make the rejections stick. They certainly test the resilience and resourcefulness of us owners sometimes.
Rgds
John
JColbourne
New member
I spoke to The RAC today. They say they can act in an arbitration capacity (as long as Porsche are willing) and would inspect the faulty part and provide a report for a very reasonable fee.
The old engine's almost re-assembled now ready for exchange, so if I go that route I'd have to rely on Porsche or the dealership allowing the inspector access to the engine subject to some disassembly again. I can see Porsche wanting to charge for doing that. Otherwise I can ask if they would do a report based on the numerous photos I've taken during the whole process.
Good to know this option exists and it will be interesting to see what Porsche's response will be. I'll call them tomorrow & update.
Rgds
John
The old engine's almost re-assembled now ready for exchange, so if I go that route I'd have to rely on Porsche or the dealership allowing the inspector access to the engine subject to some disassembly again. I can see Porsche wanting to charge for doing that. Otherwise I can ask if they would do a report based on the numerous photos I've taken during the whole process.
Good to know this option exists and it will be interesting to see what Porsche's response will be. I'll call them tomorrow & update.
Rgds
John
JColbourne
New member
Good news. Hope all goes well with inspection etc. Enjoy.
Rgds
John
JColbourne
New member
New engine has arrived at the OPC ready for collection by the specialist early next week.
The RAC have offered to assist and have said they'd do some initial work with the photos I've sent to them to make sure they have the right level of expertise. Apparently one of their specialists is an ex-Porsche mechanic so I hope that will be an advantage. Porsche have also confirmed verbally that they will recognise and accept The RAC as a trusted report-provider. Whether they will take positive action on any resulting report will remain to be seen but at least it's a couple of steps further forward.
Have a good weekend.
Rgds
John![[FONT=verdana,geneva"]](/forum/styles/default/pcgb/space.gif ". [FONT=verdana,geneva\"]")
The RAC have offered to assist and have said they'd do some initial work with the photos I've sent to them to make sure they have the right level of expertise. Apparently one of their specialists is an ex-Porsche mechanic so I hope that will be an advantage. Porsche have also confirmed verbally that they will recognise and accept The RAC as a trusted report-provider. Whether they will take positive action on any resulting report will remain to be seen but at least it's a couple of steps further forward.
Have a good weekend.
Rgds
John
JColbourne
New member
The RAC have agreed that the cracking and fracturing are abnormal and not down to normal wear & tear. They will provide me with a report (cost around £140) to send to Porsche GB with their conclusions. They suggest the next step would be a metallurgical examination (industrial x-rays etc.) to determine the nature of the cracks and fractures. I think it's worth getting The RAC report anyway as it would assure future owners (if I sell at some point in the future) as to why the engine was changed hence helping residual value.
The new engine arrived at the specialist today and the old one's now at the OPC where I bought the car from. I now have to consider the next step in determining whether Porsche GB will accept The RAC report and admit that the crank cradle was sub-standard and make me an offer based on that. If it needs the metallurgical examination before any further progress can be made, that would beg the question who pays for the part to be taken out of the old engine and the x-rays tests etc. The estimate for testing is £500-£600. If all of the next costs are down to me, is it worth taking the risks of these without any guarantee of a positive outcome in my favour?
Still it's useful to know of the processes and options open to us owners in the event similar situations occur to other members.
Rgds
John
The new engine arrived at the specialist today and the old one's now at the OPC where I bought the car from. I now have to consider the next step in determining whether Porsche GB will accept The RAC report and admit that the crank cradle was sub-standard and make me an offer based on that. If it needs the metallurgical examination before any further progress can be made, that would beg the question who pays for the part to be taken out of the old engine and the x-rays tests etc. The estimate for testing is £500-£600. If all of the next costs are down to me, is it worth taking the risks of these without any guarantee of a positive outcome in my favour?
Still it's useful to know of the processes and options open to us owners in the event similar situations occur to other members.
Rgds
John
Diesel130
New member
If Porsche have confirmed they will accept the RAC report, I don't see what additional benefit there would be in getting the more detailed analysis done.
Surey if the RAC confirm it is a manufacturing fault then Porsche should put their hands in their pocket. I would assume it is unreasonable to expect a full replacement costs due to the mileage, but a contribution would sound in order.
If Porsche say they want a more detailed inspection than the RAC report, then they are going back on their confirmation of 'accepting hte RAC report'. The only hurdle I see you have is you only have that verbally. Can you get them to put it in writing, or at least an e-mail ?
Surey if the RAC confirm it is a manufacturing fault then Porsche should put their hands in their pocket. I would assume it is unreasonable to expect a full replacement costs due to the mileage, but a contribution would sound in order.
If Porsche say they want a more detailed inspection than the RAC report, then they are going back on their confirmation of 'accepting hte RAC report'. The only hurdle I see you have is you only have that verbally. Can you get them to put it in writing, or at least an e-mail ?
JColbourne
New member
Hi Diesel,
For £140 I'd get a written report. I'm waiting for their sales team to contact me to give them the go ahead and arrange payment terms etc.
Porsche haven't said they will accept the report, only that they accept The RAC as a recognised independent report provider. The next step once they've seen a copy is to assess what they will accept and admit to.
Rgds
John
For £140 I'd get a written report. I'm waiting for their sales team to contact me to give them the go ahead and arrange payment terms etc.
Porsche haven't said they will accept the report, only that they accept The RAC as a recognised independent report provider. The next step once they've seen a copy is to assess what they will accept and admit to.
Rgds
John
JColbourne
New member
Metallurgy specialist has confirmed evidence of porosity in the crank cradle. Photo attached showing small holes/indentations in the alloy. Porsche GB informed today.
Rgds
John
Rgds
John
Andy Duncan
New member
I can't remember if this was mentioned earlier, but ironically, the RAC as I understand administer Porsche warranties!
So they have a vested interest in examining your situation.
Thanks for taking the time and effort to post this matter.
So they have a vested interest in examining your situation.
Thanks for taking the time and effort to post this matter.
JColbourne
New member
Hi Andy,
Interesting point although my technical contacts at The RAC could not confirm this.
Rgds
John
Interesting point although my technical contacts at The RAC could not confirm this.
Rgds
John
Hi JC , make sure that whenever the new engine is being built up that all the fuel injection parts are well inspected because you have just spent an awfull lot of money but have yet to find anything at all related to the missfire. Make sure the engine has new coil packs fitted!!!Good Luck.
JColbourne
New member
Thanks for your reply.
I went to see new engine today. Coil packs all there etc. I've got the new coil packs we put on the old engine as well as part of the cure process, so well stocked on that part at least.
Hoping to be back on the road end of this week/early next. Also got advice from OPC re running in suggestions.
Rgds
John
I went to see new engine today. Coil packs all there etc. I've got the new coil packs we put on the old engine as well as part of the cure process, so well stocked on that part at least.
Hoping to be back on the road end of this week/early next. Also got advice from OPC re running in suggestions.
Rgds
John
That looks pretty complete. No alternator or belt by the looks of it. What other parts do you have to take off the old engine? Does it include a flywheel and new clutch, for example?
JColbourne
New member
Hi Richard,
I believe I'm correct in saying that you use the original flywheel or replace if necessary and original alternator. New belts will probably go on as well for max mileage without any concerns.
Dave and Ben will be pricing up the final spec so I should know in a couple of days or so. As it's Tiptronic I don't think there's any other impact gearbox wise etc.
Rgds
John
I believe I'm correct in saying that you use the original flywheel or replace if necessary and original alternator. New belts will probably go on as well for max mileage without any concerns.
Dave and Ben will be pricing up the final spec so I should know in a couple of days or so. As it's Tiptronic I don't think there's any other impact gearbox wise etc.
Rgds
John
JColbourne
New member
Install completed, anti-freeze re-filled, road tested and........................................offside radiator leaking!!!!!!!!!!
] Two new rads on the way (£267 less than Porsche RRP). Hoping to be back on the road at the weekend.
Will update re Porsche response to RAC report.
Rgds
John
] Two new rads on the way (£267 less than Porsche RRP). Hoping to be back on the road at the weekend.Will update re Porsche response to RAC report.
Rgds
John
denisoreilly
New member
Just worth mentioning that unless coolant is added by someone with proper equipment, (the coolant in an OPC is filled under pressure), its possible that some fluid may not reach the gravity defying areas of the engine, thus resulting in air pockets, this can lead to overheating in spots, and this has been attributed to the issues with blown engines, its worth asking if it was filled under pressure, if not it should be.
JColbourne
New member
Hi Dennis,
Thanks for the advice. Not sure of the answer but will check. DGR did say they have specific equipment for draining and filling Porsches. Had it checked at one of my local OPC's today anyway.
Anyway to quote the old Canned Heat song "I'm on the Road Again"
. (Background music to the latest add for "Prison Break" on Sky, for those not old enough to remember original).
Got the car back on Saturday but within 200 yards of leaving the specialist "CEL - Drive to Workshop" came on
. Went to my most local OPC today and they diagnosed a faulty Oxygen Sensor. So £233 more spent and everything now OK
I also rang Porsche GB today and was told that they have put a letter in the post. The guy I spoke to couldn't/wouldn't tell me what it says, just "read it and make your decisions based on what is says"
So watch this space and fingers crossed for when the post drops through the letterbox.
Money spent: -
Engine - £7,325.25
Labor, new hoses, anti-freeze, rear gearbox mounting (old one had broken rubber shock absorber) etc - £3,119.02 (includes taking out old engine and re-building to return to Porsche GB)
New radiators - £400.00
Oxygen Sensor and diagnostics - £233.33
RAC Report - £94.00
Grand total - £11,171.60
Rgds
John
Thanks for the advice. Not sure of the answer but will check. DGR did say they have specific equipment for draining and filling Porsches. Had it checked at one of my local OPC's today anyway.
Anyway to quote the old Canned Heat song "I'm on the Road Again"
Got the car back on Saturday but within 200 yards of leaving the specialist "CEL - Drive to Workshop" came on
I also rang Porsche GB today and was told that they have put a letter in the post. The guy I spoke to couldn't/wouldn't tell me what it says, just "read it and make your decisions based on what is says"
Money spent: -
Engine - £7,325.25
Labor, new hoses, anti-freeze, rear gearbox mounting (old one had broken rubber shock absorber) etc - £3,119.02 (includes taking out old engine and re-building to return to Porsche GB)
New radiators - £400.00
Oxygen Sensor and diagnostics - £233.33
RAC Report - £94.00
Grand total - £11,171.60
Rgds
John
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