My 2019 718 Cayman GTS PDK
- Thread starter Brian_Innes
- Start date
Graham,
Personally, I don't think performance has driven the change - more likely that resistance to the F-4T in Porsche's very important US market has been the main driver. Plus, Porsche have made a significant investment in the new F-6 engine and need to ramp-up its production to get payback for the significant design, development and tooling costs. I would imagine that a major part of the business case for building the 718 GT4/Spyder was that the new engine would be used in other 718 variants.
A PDK option for the GT4/Spyder and GTS is on its way, most likely Q3/Q4 this year (a prototype 718 CGTS 4.0 with PDK was caught testing at the 'Ring in July last year). I would imagine that it will be released on all four cars at the same time once all the engineering development and WLTP testing has been completed.
Jeff
Personally, I don't think performance has driven the change - more likely that resistance to the F-4T in Porsche's very important US market has been the main driver. Plus, Porsche have made a significant investment in the new F-6 engine and need to ramp-up its production to get payback for the significant design, development and tooling costs. I would imagine that a major part of the business case for building the 718 GT4/Spyder was that the new engine would be used in other 718 variants.
A PDK option for the GT4/Spyder and GTS is on its way, most likely Q3/Q4 this year (a prototype 718 CGTS 4.0 with PDK was caught testing at the 'Ring in July last year). I would imagine that it will be released on all four cars at the same time once all the engineering development and WLTP testing has been completed.
Jeff
Technetium
New member
Brian_Innes said:
Brian, the official performance data for the new 4.0 GTS is now out..
https://www.porsche.com/uk/models/718/718-gts-4-0-models/718-cayman-gts-4-0/
£64k is pretty steep and the addition of the PDK (later in the year) will add another few K. And that's before you visit the options list.
As Jeff said, Porsche must have come under serious pressure from some influential quarters, as they are definitely "swimming against the tide" by increasing the engine size by 60%, and increasing CO2 emissions. Maybe they see it as a "temporary pacifier", and plan to reclaim all the lost CO2 credits when the all electric 718 appears?
Anyway, we are now all waiting for that twisty roads comparison of the new GTS and the current one.
Phil
There never been any doubt that the 2.5T engine certainly delivers the performance, and makes the performance very accessible too. I suspect that Brian is right that the 2.5T GTS will be quicker, certainly in most people’s hands than the new 4.0GTS. It certainly will be if Brian is driving it!
But driving pleasure is about much more than just performance and the the appeal of a naturally aspirated engine in the excellent 718 chassis is hard to ignore.
I had thought I would have to try (in vain probably) to get a allocation for a 718 Spyder (I can’t forgo the shear fun of an open top) but the 718 GTS 4.0 sounds ideal. Ok perhaps one will have to work harder for the performance, especially with a manual box but in some ways isn’t that part of the fun?
I’m sure there will be enough performance, after all I rarely use all the performance of my 987.2S!
But driving pleasure is about much more than just performance and the the appeal of a naturally aspirated engine in the excellent 718 chassis is hard to ignore.
I had thought I would have to try (in vain probably) to get a allocation for a 718 Spyder (I can’t forgo the shear fun of an open top) but the 718 GTS 4.0 sounds ideal. Ok perhaps one will have to work harder for the performance, especially with a manual box but in some ways isn’t that part of the fun?
I’m sure there will be enough performance, after all I rarely use all the performance of my 987.2S!
Brian_Innes
Member
Interesting, honest, and pragmatic comments from all contributors on the new 982 GTS 4.0.
Torque figures are quoted as 420Nm produced between a stratospheric 5000rpm and 6500rpm. (718 Cayman GTS PDK 430Nm at 2000rpm-5000rpm).
Either on my local mountain roads, or favourite race tracks, the 982 4.0 GTS would be toast compared to my car. The headline power output of 400bhp will attract the non-technically aware or pub bragging sorts. From experience, I know where the true performance leader sits in the non-GT Cayman range. It's in my garage!
When a PDK version eventually comes out, I'll try and scourge a test drive of the GTS 4.0 from an obliging OPC. 24 hours is all I'll need for an appraisal, as I am already up to speed with the 982 chassis's capabilities.
The price with options is going to be steep. My GTS PDK cost £74,000. A similar 982 GTS 4.0 won't leave much change out of £90,000. Is the engine note worth that?
And another thing, Greta won't like it.
I'm only sorry I've given up track driving as I would have loved to compare the two models on the tracks I know.
Brian
Torque figures are quoted as 420Nm produced between a stratospheric 5000rpm and 6500rpm. (718 Cayman GTS PDK 430Nm at 2000rpm-5000rpm).
Either on my local mountain roads, or favourite race tracks, the 982 4.0 GTS would be toast compared to my car. The headline power output of 400bhp will attract the non-technically aware or pub bragging sorts. From experience, I know where the true performance leader sits in the non-GT Cayman range. It's in my garage!
When a PDK version eventually comes out, I'll try and scourge a test drive of the GTS 4.0 from an obliging OPC. 24 hours is all I'll need for an appraisal, as I am already up to speed with the 982 chassis's capabilities.
The price with options is going to be steep. My GTS PDK cost £74,000. A similar 982 GTS 4.0 won't leave much change out of £90,000. Is the engine note worth that?
And another thing, Greta won't like it.
I'm only sorry I've given up track driving as I would have loved to compare the two models on the tracks I know.
Brian
Brian_Innes
Member
Graham,
I can only guess the base price of the Cayman GTS 4.0 at being somewhere in the high £60K's, and we don't yet know what EU tariffs may apply in future.
It would not be too fanciful to see a GTS 4.0 PDK edging towards £90k with the full leather, fancy stitching GTS pack, top line Hi Fi, PCCB, wider alloys in colour choice, special paint, and all the other mundane stuff we all have to pay for as extra options with Porsche.
I would guess a GTS 4.0 with a spec similar to mine would bottom-line around the £80k mark. If I had added top Hi Fi, full leather, special paint, bucket seats, etc, my car would have been nudging £80k. It was mighty expensive enough already at over £74k.
Brian
I can only guess the base price of the Cayman GTS 4.0 at being somewhere in the high £60K's, and we don't yet know what EU tariffs may apply in future.
It would not be too fanciful to see a GTS 4.0 PDK edging towards £90k with the full leather, fancy stitching GTS pack, top line Hi Fi, PCCB, wider alloys in colour choice, special paint, and all the other mundane stuff we all have to pay for as extra options with Porsche.
I would guess a GTS 4.0 with a spec similar to mine would bottom-line around the £80k mark. If I had added top Hi Fi, full leather, special paint, bucket seats, etc, my car would have been nudging £80k. It was mighty expensive enough already at over £74k.
Brian
Brian,
Like Graham I think your £90k estimate is a bit off the mark. The CGTS 4.0 retail price is £64,088 and even with all the expensive options like bucket seats, full leather, PCCB, PDLS, climate control, Bose and other "essentials" that Porsche insist on leaving off a £60k car you're probably looking at around £82k tops. There's no PDK option at the moment, so that would add another £2k, and of course there's the first year registration fee (£1.8K?) to add as well.
The GTS is a well-equipped car and I'm sure most purchasers would be very happy choosing just a small selection of options, so £70k should buy a very nice car.
Incidentally, I note that -20mm PASM is now standard with -10mm PASM a zero-cost option.
Jeff
Like Graham I think your £90k estimate is a bit off the mark. The CGTS 4.0 retail price is £64,088 and even with all the expensive options like bucket seats, full leather, PCCB, PDLS, climate control, Bose and other "essentials" that Porsche insist on leaving off a £60k car you're probably looking at around £82k tops. There's no PDK option at the moment, so that would add another £2k, and of course there's the first year registration fee (£1.8K?) to add as well.
The GTS is a well-equipped car and I'm sure most purchasers would be very happy choosing just a small selection of options, so £70k should buy a very nice car.
Incidentally, I note that -20mm PASM is now standard with -10mm PASM a zero-cost option.
Jeff
Cayman GTS4.0 with standard colours, standard seats and interior but with PCCB, LED lights, climate control, cruise control, rear parking sensors comes in at £71,791. The are no options for different size wheels (all are 8.5x20 F, 10.5x20 R). PTV and 20mm lowered PASM is standard so there are no other options for improving the driving performance.
Brian_Innes
Member
Whatever the bottom line total, I am still of the opinion that a full specced car including all first year reg taxes, will most probably breech the £80k threshold. Ok maybe £90k was pushing the envelope a little, but you'll get my drift. And that's before any EU tariff is applied. My point being, performance Caymans are getting very pricey. The new 982 GTS may cost up to another £10k over and above a like-for-like 718 GTS. If the doom-sayers prove to be correct and the forecourt values of 718 GTS 2.5 Caymans hit the floor, then the extra premium and running costs for the GTS 4.0 will heave into focus. Time will alone tell. I'm looking forward to driving one just to see for myself if all plaudits are justified.
Talking of plaudits, I have just returned from a 320 mile trip over the A939 - A93 mountain route to visit friends in the Falkirk region. Traffic was light, and although the high passes were free of snow, some icy patches were prevalent on both the A roads as the high-altitude temperatures plummeted. Careful choice of gear selection became necessary during the trip to keep progress smooth and seamless, and the car on the black stuff. I couldn't help trying to imagine how the 982 GTS 4.0 with its high revving torque delivery would have compared back-to-back against my car on the dry, grippier sections of this undulating, and tortuous route. In my hands, I would doubt if the GTS 4.0 would be as satisfying to drive as my current car on road conditions such as these. It may well be the case, that the only people who will know the true answer to this conundrum are previous owners of both models. It'll be interested to read on this forum the experiences and opinions from those current owners of the 718 GTS 2.5t who migrate to the new 4.0. I'm sure any 981 GTS 3.4 owners who upgrade to the new 4.0 will undoubtedly be impressed. For my part, I shall wait and see.
Brian
Talking of plaudits, I have just returned from a 320 mile trip over the A939 - A93 mountain route to visit friends in the Falkirk region. Traffic was light, and although the high passes were free of snow, some icy patches were prevalent on both the A roads as the high-altitude temperatures plummeted. Careful choice of gear selection became necessary during the trip to keep progress smooth and seamless, and the car on the black stuff. I couldn't help trying to imagine how the 982 GTS 4.0 with its high revving torque delivery would have compared back-to-back against my car on the dry, grippier sections of this undulating, and tortuous route. In my hands, I would doubt if the GTS 4.0 would be as satisfying to drive as my current car on road conditions such as these. It may well be the case, that the only people who will know the true answer to this conundrum are previous owners of both models. It'll be interested to read on this forum the experiences and opinions from those current owners of the 718 GTS 2.5t who migrate to the new 4.0. I'm sure any 981 GTS 3.4 owners who upgrade to the new 4.0 will undoubtedly be impressed. For my part, I shall wait and see.
Brian
Brian_Innes
Member
Wollemi said:
Graham,
Just for interest in response to your earlier post quoted above, I specced a 982 GT4 4.0 as per my current car, and the bottom line total on the configurator came to £74,914 not including first year taxes. This GT4 4.0 figure is for a manual car not a PDK which is currently not available as an option. Including first registration taxes, my car came out at only around £500 less. So your comment that there would not be much difference in price between the two models proves uncannily accurate.
My previously quoted £90k bottom line was clearly wide of the mark. I was under the mistaken impression that the base price of a GT4 4.0 was £70k. My apologies for that assumption. I stand corrected.
Otherwise things are quiet here in the far north at present. My next big trip is to attend the Oulton Park RS track day on March 6th. I am very much looking forward to that. I enjoy passenger laps around the circuit with other competent wheel-smiths in a diverse variety of Porsches. I always find it both invigorating and energising to talk to other motorsport minded drivers who share the same experiences and appreciation of chassis dynamics as I do. They care less about the engine and more about the tyres, grip, handling, and pace. Speed, for us motorsport drivers is everything. Pace wins races, not sound or cylinder count. It's so refreshing to share that common view with people.
While I am in the locality I shall call in at Porsche Centre Cheshire for a chat. I have a few thoughts to discuss with them regarding my future Porsche ownership.
More shall be revealed later......
Brian
Thank you Brian, for taking the time to spec a GTS4.0 to be as similar to your as possible. Very interesting that they come out so similar.
Thinking of how you specced your present car; which things would you describe as essential and worth the money, and which, if any would you have done differently?
Headlights for example. Living as you do in the northern highlands I imagine that you value having decent headlights otherwise at night any car is only as fast as far as it’s lights can illuminate. Are the bi-xenons fully up to the job; was there a reason for not going to the LED option?
i fir one will be very interested in your views
Graham
Thinking of how you specced your present car; which things would you describe as essential and worth the money, and which, if any would you have done differently?
Headlights for example. Living as you do in the northern highlands I imagine that you value having decent headlights otherwise at night any car is only as fast as far as it’s lights can illuminate. Are the bi-xenons fully up to the job; was there a reason for not going to the LED option?
i fir one will be very interested in your views
Graham
Brian_Innes
Member
Graham,
I would not make any changes to my current spec. I baulked at the GTS pack full leather with fancy stitching option. I put the money towards PCCB instead.
The PDLS Xenons are absolutely up to the job. I didn't go the extra mile for the LED's. Instead putting the money towards PCCB.
Options are very much a personal choice. My preferences are for driving, and the more practical options rather than the showy sort. For what it is worth, the "essentials" in my opinion, are as follows;
PDK with Sport Chrono.
Mechanically locking Diff.
-20mm lowered PASM.
The wider 8.5" and 10.5" 20" Carrera Sport Wheels.
Power Steering Plus.
Cruise Control. (For keeping my licence clean on Motorways).
Folding door mirrors. (Really shouldn't be an option this one!)
Smoking Pack. (for easy access to a power point for my Dash Cam and C-Tek Charger. Also tidies up the centre console).
Luggage nets in front passenger footwell and rear luggage shelf.
I would not class PCCB brakes as essential. The standard iron brakes are perfectly up to the job. The benefits for me are mainly with the dynamics. Lighter unsprung weight at each corner. eg Benefits - Less gyroscopic interference when steering at speed giving an improved steering feel. Less weight for the dampers and springs for improved handling. Consistent brake pedal feel under heavy braking on track days. More resistant to fade than iron brakes. Less brake dust. No rust on discs after car washing. (I still dry my brakes after each wash. Force of habit).
That's about it really.
Brian
I would not make any changes to my current spec. I baulked at the GTS pack full leather with fancy stitching option. I put the money towards PCCB instead.
The PDLS Xenons are absolutely up to the job. I didn't go the extra mile for the LED's. Instead putting the money towards PCCB.
Options are very much a personal choice. My preferences are for driving, and the more practical options rather than the showy sort. For what it is worth, the "essentials" in my opinion, are as follows;
PDK with Sport Chrono.
Mechanically locking Diff.
-20mm lowered PASM.
The wider 8.5" and 10.5" 20" Carrera Sport Wheels.
Power Steering Plus.
Cruise Control. (For keeping my licence clean on Motorways).
Folding door mirrors. (Really shouldn't be an option this one!)
Smoking Pack. (for easy access to a power point for my Dash Cam and C-Tek Charger. Also tidies up the centre console).
Luggage nets in front passenger footwell and rear luggage shelf.
I would not class PCCB brakes as essential. The standard iron brakes are perfectly up to the job. The benefits for me are mainly with the dynamics. Lighter unsprung weight at each corner. eg Benefits - Less gyroscopic interference when steering at speed giving an improved steering feel. Less weight for the dampers and springs for improved handling. Consistent brake pedal feel under heavy braking on track days. More resistant to fade than iron brakes. Less brake dust. No rust on discs after car washing. (I still dry my brakes after each wash. Force of habit).
That's about it really.
Brian
Brian,
From experience with my own 2009 CS I'd agree with you that the excellent PDLS Bi-Xenons are more than adequate, and I wouldn't bother spec'ing the even more expensive LED headlights. Also I read somewhere that the LED's PDLS Plus dynamic range control and speed-sensitive headlight range control can be a bit hit-and-miss, although I'm sure that some degree of manual override is available.
£5k+ for PCCBs is a big hit to take, and most probably I'd give them a miss because the standard iron brakes are well up to the task of stopping the car on road and track. I don't like black wheels (or black anything, come to that!) and would go with the Satin Platinum paint option, which I guess would be less likely to show brake dust?
As I've said many times before now, the fact that climate control, folding and auto-dipping mirrors and cruise control aren't standard features on a £65k+ is disgraceful. Rant over..!
Jeff
From experience with my own 2009 CS I'd agree with you that the excellent PDLS Bi-Xenons are more than adequate, and I wouldn't bother spec'ing the even more expensive LED headlights. Also I read somewhere that the LED's PDLS Plus dynamic range control and speed-sensitive headlight range control can be a bit hit-and-miss, although I'm sure that some degree of manual override is available.
£5k+ for PCCBs is a big hit to take, and most probably I'd give them a miss because the standard iron brakes are well up to the task of stopping the car on road and track. I don't like black wheels (or black anything, come to that!) and would go with the Satin Platinum paint option, which I guess would be less likely to show brake dust?
As I've said many times before now, the fact that climate control, folding and auto-dipping mirrors and cruise control aren't standard features on a £65k+ is disgraceful. Rant over..!
Jeff
Brian_Innes
Member
Jeff,
My reasoning for going for PCCB's this time, was driven by the fact that I had not specced them before on any of my previous Caymans. I already had previous experience of PCCB's track performance on Cayman R and GT3 RS PEC cars while participating on Sport School Precision Courses using the Silverstone GP circuit.
I was curious to compare back-to-back dynamic performance with my previous 718 CS on tracks I already knew well. The difference compared to iron brakes was outstanding. I must add the qualifier that following a lifetime of competitive motorsport, I am particularly sensitive to dynamic changes in braking, steering, and handling. More so than perhaps some drivers who have no competitive motorsport experience. I used to be constantly tweaking brake balance adjustments, camber and toe settings on my competition cars endeavouring to eek out that extra few tenths of a second over my competitors.
For road use you don't need the dynamic benefits of PCCB. I still maintain that steering feel on twisty roads is enhanced by PCCB. That is a matter of my opinion.
I am well aware from experience on this forum, that I often seem to be ploughing a lone furrow when it comes to opinions on dynamics, engines and gearboxes.
Brian
My reasoning for going for PCCB's this time, was driven by the fact that I had not specced them before on any of my previous Caymans. I already had previous experience of PCCB's track performance on Cayman R and GT3 RS PEC cars while participating on Sport School Precision Courses using the Silverstone GP circuit.
I was curious to compare back-to-back dynamic performance with my previous 718 CS on tracks I already knew well. The difference compared to iron brakes was outstanding. I must add the qualifier that following a lifetime of competitive motorsport, I am particularly sensitive to dynamic changes in braking, steering, and handling. More so than perhaps some drivers who have no competitive motorsport experience. I used to be constantly tweaking brake balance adjustments, camber and toe settings on my competition cars endeavouring to eek out that extra few tenths of a second over my competitors.
For road use you don't need the dynamic benefits of PCCB. I still maintain that steering feel on twisty roads is enhanced by PCCB. That is a matter of my opinion.
I am well aware from experience on this forum, that I often seem to be ploughing a lone furrow when it comes to opinions on dynamics, engines and gearboxes.
Brian
On the F4T 718S and 718GTS the standard brakes have a 4-pot caliper front and rear - discs are 330mm front and 299mm rear. Brian's PCCBs gain 350mm discs all round and a 6-pot front caliper. I would expect braking performance to be improved along with heat management when compared to the standard steel brakes as it's a substantial change in setup.
On the new 4.0 GTS, that car has the same brake setup as the 981 Spyder and 991 Carrera S. That includes larger steel brakes all round and a 6-pot front caliper - 350mm front and 330mm rear. PCCBs are the same as Brians, with 350mm discs all round. So the difference in overall setup is much smaller and I would expect the steel brakes to perform much better and dissipate heat better than those on the F4T models.
Something to consider, Graham...
On the new 4.0 GTS, that car has the same brake setup as the 981 Spyder and 991 Carrera S. That includes larger steel brakes all round and a 6-pot front caliper - 350mm front and 330mm rear. PCCBs are the same as Brians, with 350mm discs all round. So the difference in overall setup is much smaller and I would expect the steel brakes to perform much better and dissipate heat better than those on the F4T models.
Something to consider, Graham...
Motorhead said:
I too currently have a 2009 987.2 with the Bi-Xenon PDLS which although much better than the standard halogens are not as long ranging or have as wide a spread of light on main beam as some another cars, like for example my 2010 Land Rover Discovery. I would be interested to know how much of an improvement the LEDs are over the Bi-Xenons. For me, l just want the best lights possible.
Brian_Innes
Member
Graham,
In my humble opinion, the Bi-Xenon's light spread is absolutely fine. It's worth noting that in my understanding, the LED headlights do not mechanically swivel when turning corners, as do the Bi-Xenons. Instead the LED's perform some optical/electronic jiggery-pokery to direct the angle of light. Seems complicated to me.
Sometimes it's best to keep things simple.
Brian
In my humble opinion, the Bi-Xenon's light spread is absolutely fine. It's worth noting that in my understanding, the LED headlights do not mechanically swivel when turning corners, as do the Bi-Xenons. Instead the LED's perform some optical/electronic jiggery-pokery to direct the angle of light. Seems complicated to me.
Sometimes it's best to keep things simple.
Brian
Posts made and opinions expressed are those of the individual forum members
Use of the Forum is subject to the Terms and Conditions
