My S2 has got MAF !

[Fen]

I have kept out of this discussion quite deliberately and I still intend to save for saying one thing. Long, long before most of you guys were registered on here there was another supplier, who happens to be the PCGB 944 Technical Advisor (or was at that time, he may have given it up because of the whole debacle), who was forced to remove the url of his company from his signature. As a result he stopped supporting the forum entirely. Surely the forum is the best vehicle available for owners and club members to get technical info on their cars - better even than telephone as the response is automatically added to a searchable database. The whole issue of suppliers and forums can be thorny; the supplier can get the competitive advantage of a lot of free advertising at the heart of the target audience but equally the members want to know what is available. Obviously all suppliers can do the same but nobody will use a forum that is mostly free advertisements. Normally it is addressed by allowing suppliers to sponsor the forum (and as most are independent that helps greatly with server and bandwidth costs) and from then on the sponsor gets a banner and possibly a subsection in their own name to discuss their wares. They still have to accept people can and will make negative comments of course. There appears to be some lack of clarity here though; no sponsorship (and the club missing a trick if you ask me, possibly a bit naieve at the web still?) and possibly worse no enforcement of any guidelines. Bottom line for me is that I don't mind people making a living and I think it is perfectly understandable that a forum is an excellent vehicle for a niche product. To prevent any trade advertising (which I think is the rule on this forum to be honest) is a solution but not necessarily the best one as owners may well not know of products they want to buy and suppliers may at worst go out of business through not being able to sustain enough conventional advertising to reach the niche market. Surely a better solution all round is to allow suppliers to buy a banner ad/sponsor the forum and then enforce preventing non-paying suppliers from posting messages promoting their business. That's how Rennlist works and while it is not ideal it is better than nothing.

 

[Guest]

ORIGINAL: TTM
That a so-called supplier who is in fact a one-man show selling products for twice the price he buys them tries to make unjustified profit using my free feedback is something I won't swallow.

Did you buy everything you own direct from the factory? Isn't the definition of a dealer: someone who sells goods on at a profit? Did you post your feedback freely, or did he perhaps coerce you into posting? Did the supplier make the initial post about him selling the product? So what's your problem then?

Tom

 

[Diver944]

Remember it was me who resurrected this thread and posted the prices available from a UK supplier. I thought it was important for our members to know about this product which was being openly discussed on the Titanic list, but the rules prevented Andrew from publicising it here.

The forums rules do prevent advertising, but if we the members and users want to talk about these goods, and we also have the vendor able to offer advice then everybody wins.

Blatant advertising will be moderated and has been done once or twice before, but thankfully John and I very seldom have to do anything like that [] This forum is ultimately for all our benefit, so if anyone ever thinks it does get out of hand then just say.

For the moment, I think we now all know where to buy these items, how much they cost and also where they originally came from.

 

[Guest]

ORIGINAL: flamingeye

Do they have a website or is it e-mail only?
So you basically undo the AFM and directly replace it with the MAF? And no other tweaking?
Anyone shed any more light on the workings/benefits of this. I do have a vague idea, but....
My AFM needed tweaking last MOT at much cost, what happens with these if they need work done?
Maybe we should buy now before someone else gets hold of them and then asks twice the price[]
or wait to see what happens to TTM's car after a good run in[]

Gaze into my crystal ball!

 

[944Turbo]

At the euro price it was an easy choice, at the current price I am very tempted by the vittesse racing unit, I think I might wait for the furry rodents to report back []
Tony

 

[John Sims]

ORIGINAL: 944Turbo

At the euro price it was an easy choice, at the current price I am very tempted by the vittesse racing unit, I think I might wait for the furry rodents to report back []
Tony

As a former furry rodent, and Peruvian sandwich filling, all I can say is "You Chicken!" [].

In answer to Thom's comments:-

I can appreciate that you might be a little miffed if you felt you were part of an exclusive test team. Equally I can see how you think that Andrew might be jumping on the band waggon; and you wouldn't be the first. However, following the demise of the Guru MAP supply Andrew needed an alternative product, it just so happened that the German MAF solution came to light at around the same time. I know this to be the case as I was, to some small extent, involved in researching alternatives and discussed the MAF solution at length with Andrew.

If you consider Andrew's solution he is offering more than just the MAF kit. While the MAF will reduce the restriction in the air flow you don't get the full advantage of that increase in air flow unless you modify the fuelling.

I don't like people profiting on the backs of others but, (if you read one of my other threads you will see that, in addition to a level of service) you may not be paying any more for a product bought from an agent - you might even make a saving. FACT!

Some of us have spent a fair amount with Andrew and know him to provide an outstanding level of service. I could be a disgruntled customer as I could suggest that my Link MAP kit didn't reach my expectations. However, Andrew has endeavoured to rectify my problems. I have a product which has known faults, and is less than perfect, but performs to such a level that I can't say that it is totally unsatisfactory. To this end I don't feel that I could reasonably demand my money back. However, had I done so, I remain confident Andrew would have addressed the matter in a Gentlemanly manner.

While Andrew isn't infallible, in my experience, he does try to provide a service to a very small community which is sadly lacking in good suppliers. As a moderator of this forum I think it is in the interests of the forum members to let them know where they can obtain specialist products and services. Andrew is one of the few UK sources for 944 tuning parts so it is inevitable that his name will come up reasonably frequently. This is to his advantage when things are going well but can be equally damaging if issues arise. To this end we all appreciate others comments both good and bad - whoever the supplier is.

 

[944Turbo]

When I originally saw this idea it was sounding like it would be much cheaper, which got me all excited, (see the rennlist thread). However it is still a remarkly good price for MAF. The vitesse racing option is more expensive but does offer more, well maybe, it comes with a cone air filter (is this a plus?) and more plumbing and the piggyback is already available. Anyway as my service is due I will get that done first and then decide.
Tony

 

[John Sims]

My experience with MAP puts a concern in my mind over piggy back solutions. It seems that the piggy back system needs to process the signal spectacularly fast to avoid fuel spikes. I don't know if it is my Link interface which is too slow or the ECU which too slow to receive the signal, either way there is an obvious latency.
This being the case the purest solution is to avoid a piggy back and process as clean (and fast) a signal as possible with the ECU. I appreciate that this requires a new chip for every stage of tune but I do think that this is the best solution.
If I understand Andrew's solution he is offering a variety of chip maps for different set ups. Granted these map configurations will have to have been either assumed or written on a car of similar specification to your own (but then that's how the Guru chips worked and they were pretty good). The only way to get the optimum configuration is to get a bespoke chip.
One could say that having the ability to modify the fuelling ones self, with a piggy back interface, means that you could write your own fuel map on the fly. While the Link system is flawed, and so not necessarily the best guide, my experience of this is it is far easier in theory than it is in practise and can prove to be very frustrating.
The best way to get the best results is to do what the professionals do and have a chip blown on the dyno.

 

[944Turbo]

The vitesse MAF can be bought without the piggyback as a plug and play as well, the piggyback allows changes to be added without going through the new chip route. I believe the MAF charachteristics are such that they work better with a piggyback and our ECU's (A MAF is slower to respond than MAP sensor which is virtually instant). I believe MAP works well with standalone managment that is designed for MAP. I am also watching the Mega-squirt (cheap standalone) thread on rennlist.
The other thing with bespoke chips and with standalone is they are only as good as the person writing them / setting them up. Unfortunately I believe the most experienced 951 tuners are on the wrong side of the Atlantic.
Tony

 

[stever951]

Well, furry rodent here. Picked up the Scivision MAF kit from Andrew on Thursday and had it fitted by Monkfish performance in Brackley on Sunday. Noticed an immediate improvement in throttle response, especially off boost.. Took it easy because of the rain but after a while I noticed stumbling coming off the throttle. Boost seemed to come in sooner and harder than before. Worried that I was giving it more air with no more fuel I checked things on the Apexi. Boost had leaped from 1.2 to 1.27 bar. Switched to the other setting ( 1 bar) and proceeded home. The car was already booked into DP Motorsport to have my DPW fitted this Thursday so hopefully the remap will sort things out. I emailed Thomas at Scivision as Andrews out of the country this week. His reply was that it sounds like my BOV ( Bailey DV30) is opening very rapidly and the released air is pressed reversely through the MAF. Apparently the current software is optimized for the stock BOV unit and catches the backflow. If the BOV releases more air, it could be "irritating the software". Also apparently the same could happen with boost pressure more than 1.2 Bar. He said "we do have software versions to deal with this problem, the current software in your unit is optimized for stock valves and pressure up to 1.2 Bar." I think he's sending me the latest version to try but in the meantime I decided to get a bit more insight into air/fuel ratios before driving up to Warrington . I'm having BS Motorsport fit the Innovate LC-1 wideband that I've had kicking around for a while. Sat in their office while I type this. Great excuse to get round to it. I have a good feeling about the MAF kit, I think once I get my used K27/6 on as well, I should be satisfied for a while!

Steve

 

[John Sims]

Hi Steve,

Welcome to the PCGB forum. Here's hopping we see more of you.

The whole list is starting to sound like a bit of a script for a jesters tear, but I can't think of a better man to have to deal with it. [] And it's about time you got the WB AFR meter fixed, it must six months or more since we saw it.

With all the issues of back pressure off the dump valve I am given to wonder if you would be better off loosing the recirc. I know there is all of the old argument of metered air within the system etc. but, by the time the metered air has been recirculated and hits the cylinders the signal that produced the fuel to accommodate it has long gone. This is also a double whammy as the back pressure of the recirculated air will reduce the airflow through the MAF and thus lean off the mixture although the recirculated air will still go to the cylinders thus producing a fat air charge.

The above is purely speculation, but it seems to make sense. Note that the barn door doesn't suffer from back pressure in the same way as it is, in effect, a one way valve.

 

[Fen]

Edited to add this was in response to Tony's last post. A nice Californian Merlot prevented me from seeing the next page in time... [&o] A 951 engine is an air pump, just like any other petrol fuelled internal combustion engine. Mark Shead quite likely has never been in a 951 before and certainly wasn't any more au fait with what they are like under the bonnet that any other (automotive) mechanically trained person would be but he still put an excellent map on my car in about 1 1/2 hours. Why? Because he knows the software he was using. At the end of the day mapping the 951 engine is not a black art and all it takes to get the best from it is someone who knows what they are doing with the tuning options available be that a piggyback (which I tend to agree with John on to some extent), standalone or customising the stock ECU. Clearly the game has moved on since the late 70's when the ECU used by Porsche was developed so there is more advantage to be mined by using a modern, state-of-the-art standalone but really if it's true to say the expertise in 951 tuning lies across the Atlantic (in terms of mapping) then what you are really saying is the expertise in a specific flavour of Motronic EMS lies across the Atlantic.

 

[Fen]

ORIGINAL: John Sims

Hi Steve,

Welcome to the PCGB forum. Here's hopping we see more of you.

The whole list is starting to sound like a bit of a script for a jesters tear, but I can't think of a better man to have to deal with it. [] And it's about time you got the WB AFR meter fixed, it must six months or more since we saw it.

With all the issues of back pressure off the dump valve I am given to wonder if you would be better off loosing the recirc. I know there is all of the old argument of metered air within the system etc. but, by the time the metered air has been recirculated and hits the cylinders the signal that produced the fuel to accommodate it has long gone. This is also a double whammy as the back pressure of the recirculated air will reduce the airflow through the MAF and thus lean off the mixture although the recirculated air will still go to the cylinders thus producing a fat air charge.

The above is purely speculation, but it seems to make sense. Note that the barn door doesn't suffer from back pressure in the same way as it is, in effect, a one way valve.

I'd like to second John's welcome. Most of the UK 951 modifiers from Titanic are on here too and I think I speak for John and Paul as well as myself in saying we prefer the format. You should be ashamed that even at the glacial pace of my project I have still had an LM-1 installed and working for 2 months after seeing your LC-1 at the RR day! Anyway, to address John's suggestion regarding DV I agree, but I do know through received wisdom more about VAG 1.8 20V Turbo tuning than I need to and I know they do not like atmospheric DVs at all. They use MAF as opposed to MAP in case that wasn't clear. It has to be worth a try though if the software can't sort it out.

 

[944Turbo]

Clearly the game has moved on since the late 70's when the ECU used by Porsche was developed so there is more advantage to be mined by using a modern, state-of-the-art standalone but really if it's true to say the expertise in 951 tuning lies across the Atlantic (in terms of mapping) then what you are really saying is the expertise in a specific flavour of Motronic EMS lies across the Atlantic.

Well yes maybe, but can you be certain you are getting the most from your engine? I feel that to get the very best from an engine you need to know its characteristics inside out, cam profiles, timing, flow patterns, knock behaviour etc. The better you know it the closer you can get to the limit of maximum performance and minimum risk of damage. Maybe I am just over complicating it [] its only an engine after all.
Tony

 

[Fen]

You're absolutely right but we were talking about the standalone EMS/mapping part of modifying only I thought. Once all the mechanicals are done you have your air-pump, albeit maybe a very optimised one.

 

[John Sims]

I would agree that it should be simple. But, with a well known chip wizard rumoured to have produced settings which have killed more than a few 951 head gaskets in the past, I am given to wonder if it isn't a bit more of a black art then we are giving it credit. Lets face it, if it was easy everybody would be doing it.

 

[944Turbo]

ORIGINAL: Fen

You're absolutely right but we were talking about the standalone EMS/mapping part of modifying only I thought. Once all the mechanicals are done you have your air-pump, albeit maybe a very optimised one.

Yes, I was talking about the matching of the managment to get the best from the other characteristics. You want the ignition timing to match the cam profile and boost level etc. etc.You dont have to be around Rennlist long to realise that a badly mapped 944 engine leads to HG failure.
Tony

 

[Fen]

But surely what you do there is alter the timing to the onset of knock then relax it back a small safety margin under varying conditions? That's what I mean about it being an air-pump. There is nothing unique in mapping a 951 engine compared with any other engine.

 

[Fen]

Revisiting the Rennlist thing it never ceases to amaze me how so many people spend huge amounts on their engines and then expect to run them on a chip that Danno or Fast951 or someone blows for them remotely and sends in the post. The only way to get the best from any car (even a standard one) is to map it in real time on the rollers or out on the road. That way you can minimise the safety margin as much as possible to gain performance but still remain with enough safety margin to stay safe.

 

[944Turbo]

Ah yes, it amazes me too, but then when they produce more power on the rollers than a bespoke chip that is what makes me think there is something more complex going on and mapping them is not as straight forward as it might seem. []
Tony