My S2 has got MAF !

[Fen]

I haven't seen any bespoke maps on the rollers that I can think of.

 

[944Turbo]

I am pretty certain there were at least a couple of cars at Weltmeister that had been 'Wayned' and a few more at Jamsport. I believe some who were mapped then changed to guru chips and noted an improvement- whether this coincided with other changes I don't know.(Gareth? Mark D, but he has a new turbo as well)

Whilst all engines basically do the same thing, there are differences in how this is achieved, mapping looks at the airflow/temp and then decides how much fuel to add and when to ignite it. What you do with those variables is the clever bit. Leaner and less advance? richer and more advance? The cam characteristics (overlap), the flow, the size of the bore (we have unusually large cylinders to fill and empty), the octane of the fuel etc. etc. all have an effect on what you want to do with the mapping. Undoubtedly this is all much easier with standalone and I dont doubt it is possible to improve on what an off the shelf chip can offer. It is also possible to have an engine that runs very well but isnt producing its optimum. At least with standalone it is easy to experiment.

Tony

 

[Fen]

I forgot about the "Wayned" ones. Isn't it amazing how what was once the ultimate is now considered potentially inferior or even dangerous to the engine.

Maybe there is something in the various options relating to the engine design. I might have to fund a day on the WRC rollers to see what the car responds best to.

 

[944Turbo]

Well they could have been weak / old head gaskets, given their latest results (500+rwhp on a load dyno from a 2.5l) albeit with race gas and lots of boost maybe reverse engineering a Vittesse chip might be the way to go, if you have paid for the chip and keep it to yourself then you should be fairly safe legally not sure how easy it would be to do though.
Tony

 

[John Sims]

ORIGINAL: 944Turbo

.........not sure how easy it would be to do though.
Tony

I've no doubt that Rick could tell you.

Beaky had a Wayne chip when we did the Weltmeister day. I changed the injectors and put in a Guru chip. The original injectors weren't running full duty so the injectors shouldn't have made any difference. A Link specialist company in Kenilworth then set up the fuelling on the car and a subsequent run at Alan's demonstrated a drop in power.
Belinda an I then spent a happy evening remapping the fuelling and another run on Alan's dyno demonstrated an increase in performance over the original Wayne chip.
I accept the the Link can be a bit arbitrary but it does demonstrate that there are variations in the way the car is set up. It also shows that a Company that should know how to set up air pumps were completely flummoxed by Beaky.

 

[Diver944]

Nice to have you as a furry rodent Steve and I can't wait to hear how the car performs once all the bits are all bolted in and set up. My own project is still a few weeks away from completion, but when its finished and run in I will definitely be after a custom map to get everything running properly (and safely). My 3.0l block is currently at Perfect Bore being sleeved to run with JE pistons that require a Nikasil lining (no-one had any Mahle pistons that are compatible with the standard Alusil lining).

It will return with a 106mm bore and be a 3.2 litres Turbo [], needless to say I don't think an off the shelf map would be suitable. I could be wrong though - Scivision do seem to know what they are doing.

At the level of tune we are now starting to aim for it is essential to be able to monitor whats going on in there so a wideband is a must. Shame on you Steve for taking so long to fit your spangly Innovate gauge that we all saw back at Weltmeister []

 

[Fen]

ORIGINAL: Diver944

It will return with a 106mm bore and be a 3.2 litres Turbo [], needless to say I don't think an off the shelf map would be suitable. I could be wrong though - Scivision do seem to know what they are doing.

[Blakey] I 'ate you Smith [/Blakey] [] In all seriousness I was talking only this evening about going that last mile with mine - 3.2 bottom end and ultimately 16V top end. Anybody got a scored S2 block for sale (seems a shame to destroy a brand new one, Paul)?

 

[John Sims]

You guys are just getting plain silly now. []

 

[944Turbo]

Must admit as I have been wheel spinning everywhere over the last few days (even well sideways in 3rd!) I have wondered if I really need any more power. I must adjust the suspension a bit softer and see if it liberates some grip.[]
Tony

 

[John Sims]

You could try not pushing the right hand pedal down quite so far. This seems to work for me. []

 

[944Turbo]

Sorry that doesn't compute
Tony

 

[Guest]

ORIGINAL: stever951

Well, furry rodent here. Picked up the Scivision MAF kit from Andrew on Thursday and had it fitted by Monkfish

Steve

So Steve, as I am currently pumped on insurance at the mo. what did your insurer have to say. Has it gone up/down/same etc etc???

 

[Guest]

[]my god you lot have cooked my brain wiyh all this talk of technical stuff i'll just leave it to my garage to sort out....must read a book on how engines work!!!![8|]

 

[sawood12]

So how good are the off-the shelf chips? I'm halfway through a Promax stg2 upgrade as i've fitted the DPW (running 0.8 bar boost) and new piston type recirc valve so the next step is the Promax chip and 3 bar FPR. Should I bother or am I better off going for a bespoke map? I'm not 100% focussed on overall BHP ( i'd be happy with only another 20 or so to get me around the 260 bhp mark - i'm currently at 237.5 according to Weltmiester which I was pretty pleased with since i'm running stock boost level) but I am chasing improved power delivery, so will the off the shelf Promax chip be OK for me?

The MAP kit looks very tempting for a future mod and am looking forward to seeing what Andrew makes of it when he fits it to his Turbo.

 

[944Turbo]

ORIGINAL: sweetea
It is possible that venting the valve to atmosphere and blocking off the entry to the 'J' pipe may resolve it - but the MAF software is still expecting an air signal on the overrun. Hence, the idle may drop and then come up. So, try this by all means, but we'll come up with a proper solution in the meantime.

With a recirculating type dump valve if you vent it to atmosphere will you suck in unfiltered/unmetered air under vacuum conditions i.e from idle until boost starts to build?

The reason it's possible to improve on some of the rolling road chips is because they are often completed on a specific day under very specific conditions. If no allowance is built into the chip for changing air pressure, temperature and fuelling - it is often quite easy to improve on them. This can be achievable by using the original Bosch maps as a baseline (on cars that are near to standard) and adding fuel at key strategic places. Many tuners focus too much on advance and don't deliver enough fuel for when the car is being used on the road on a cold morning (for example). As much as Danno (Guru) is unreliable and dishonest - his chips were good. However, even they were improved upon quite easily. Vitesse chips are different - they require you to remove the cycling valve (or bypass) and have a specially coded DME module that replaces the chip. They are much more expensive - but many rennlisters are very happy with them. We will supply them here if there is enough demand (have been in dialogue with John at Vitesse since March in case anybody gets upset ;-))

Danno also reccomends bypassing the cycling valve. The vitesse chips have a piggy back board allowing a more advance chipset to plug into the motronic board - I would be disappointed if you hadn't been speaking to Vittesse for a while []

As Fen says, somebody who properly understands the process should be able to map a car. It helps to have a better understanding of a particular model (such as the 951) - but essentially the principle remains the same for all cars. A good rolling road tuner will maximise everything (fuel and ignition advance) and then take stock of how the car will be used and make small compromise adjustments accordingly. The cars that have been referred to as 'Wayned' that have lost a few head gaskets (me included, prior to bigger injectors) were more likely suffering from the air lock that forms in the head around #4 cylinder. This area runs very hot causing the head and block to over crush the gasket allowing it to deteriorate and fail. Additional top end fuel (having a cooling effect) can overcome this to an extent. We now stock the water fix for this issue - so if you fit a new or refurbished head (or gasket) - well worth getting this done.

Running lean and or detonation have a heating effect, this is more likely to create the steam / bubbles around the #4 cylinder head pocket further reducing the cooling effect and generating more heat. The guru chips do tend towards overfuelling which will help keep the temps lower, but can cause problems of its own (bore washing etc.). IMHO with good mapping the coolant mod shouldn't be required. Danno has a section on his website detailing HG failures, generally they have burnt through the sealing ring again a sign of excess heat. This could be caused by the lack of cooling of course.

I'll be fitting the SciVision MAF to my Turbo tomorrow - this still has the standard bypass valve. I will then test and fit with a BoostSciences valve (similar to Bailey DV30) and report back to you.

Look forward to hearing the results

Tony

 

[944Turbo]

ORIGINAL: sawood12

So how good are the off-the shelf chips? I'm halfway through a Promax stg2 upgrade as i've fitted the DPW (running 0.8 bar boost) and new piston type recirc valve so the next step is the Promax chip and 3 bar FPR. Should I bother or am I better off going for a bespoke map? I'm not 100% focussed on overall BHP ( i'd be happy with only another 20 or so to get me around the 260 bhp mark - i'm currently at 237.5 according to Weltmiester which I was pretty pleased with since i'm running stock boost level) but I am chasing improved power delivery, so will the off the shelf Promax chip be OK for me?

The MAP kit looks very tempting for a future mod and am looking forward to seeing what Andrew makes of it when he fits it to his Turbo.

In my experience very good (look at David Benjamin's cars results on Ricks weltmeister page, the AFR is spot on). You will want a boost guage to ensure you dont go too high with the boost setting and for the ultimate way to match the chips to your car/boost safely a Wideband Air/fuel monitor.

Tony

 

[Diver944]

ORIGINAL: sweetea

I'll be fitting the SciVision MAF to my Turbo tomorrow - this still has the standard bypass valve.

How's it going Andrew? Are you still out there with a torch in hand shouting work you stupid #@*! []

I'd be interested to hear how the standard bypass valve copes with teh MAf as I have a new 993 one on my car. I had been about to switch to your DV30 when everything was back up and running

 

[John Sims]

ORIGINAL: sweetea

...............At least we have confirmation of a very worthwhile performance improvement.......

It doesn't count without the dyno figures []

As you are fitting one to your car, why not do a run at Alan's before and after to provide absolute and documented figures that no body can argue with?

 

[Fen]

... and an AFR plot []