Neils thought for the day!

[Fen]

That's an interesting take - now I consider it I haven't driven a bad Porsche either, but the newer ones I find to be like the better examples of ordinary cars whereas the older ones were very definitely Porsche and that's what I mourn.

Also interesting you cite the 928 as an aberration rather than the Cayenne. For the record I have driven neither but like the idea of both. I very seriously considered a Cayenne Turbo instead of the RS6.

 

[sawood12]

It's quite interesting to read what makes people tick. I personally am a petrol head first and foremost and only really got into Porsche about 10yrs ago. Previous to that I held the view that the 911 was overrated and could never understand its appeal. I also thought that the 924/944's were not proper Porsches and that they were all built by Audi with Audi engines. Strangely enought the 928 was the model that most appealed to me in my pre-Porsche enthusiast days. How times have changed. I can't remember the exact point in time I started to take an interest in Porsches but I started to educate myself and realised that there is more than meets the eye. I also got into 944 ownership as what I thought was a stepping stone to 911 ownership, but how my eyes have been opened and it has taught me more about driving than any other car I could have owned. Sure I still hanker after a 911 but the 944 has been such a surprise. A for the 928? well now I just can't see the point of it. It's too big and lumbering to have the nimbleness of a 944, it drinks fuel like it's going out of fashion and costs a fortune to maintain. I just wish the 944 inherited its all-round double wishbone suspension.

However I actually like the modern Porsches. They are without a shadow of a doubt more capable cars than the earlier ones. I think the new 997 is the best one yet - even better than the 933. It is such a capable car and the best thing about it is that unlike Ferrari's and other mid-engines exotica, the performance is available to normal drivers. Yes Ferrari's might be able to just beat a 911 on track in the hands of a seasoned proffessional racing driver - but for meer mortals like you or I, on normal roads, the 911 is by far the faster car. I think even the promising Cayman has still got a long way to go before it steals the 911 crown - it'll take more than an LSD and more BHP (people seem to forget that the 997 doesn't have an LSD either when they cry that the lack of LSD is crippling the Caymans performance). Ironically the 911's achilles heal has turned into it's greatest strength - its rear weight bias. Now that Porsche have tamed the handling problems presented by the rear weight bias, the sheer traction that is available makes it hard to beat for mid engined cars who's traction control systems have to reign in their often greater power because there is not enough weight over the driven wheels to use it (acres of rubber is for nothing without weight pressing it into the tarmac). The GT3 demonstrates this. On YouTube i've seen several GT3 vs. F430 drag races and for all it's launch control and e-diff technology the F430 still struggles to beat the GT3. It's just a shame that Porsche havn't managed to retain some of the classic atmosphere and feeling of the earlier Porsches.

As for the good old 944, I can't imagine letting her go in the near future and am planning on keeping her as an ongoing project. When I get a 911 it'll be as a 2nd car to soak up the daily grind to and from work with the 944 tucked up in the garage as the hobby/track car.

 

[RC18B 911 turbo]

I've driven a 928GTS and although it was quite good the sound it made how fast it went and the cornering was fairly good too but in comparison to a 944 it just didn't quite feel as connected as it and also it maybe faster but it didn't feel like it was much faster.

For some reason at the moment I would like a 924 Carrera GT I think there is something about the looks of it that I like, don't know how long that'll last for, cars that I want seem to change all the time.

 

[Robert Edwards]

It's just a shame that Porsche havn't managed to retain some of the classic atmosphere and feeling of the earlier Porsches.


Hear, hear...

It's the feel of German cars I like; the no-nonsense interiors, for example, although when cousin Jerry even attempts wood-finished interiors it's generally a disaster. But if you take a look at, say a 356 or a Merc gullwing, you get the full package of what they're all about.

Frankly, I have not driven a modern Porsche, but my general impression is that q. a few modern cars are actually overpowered. For me, simple underpinnings, decent seats and c. 200 bhp is sufficient for a road car.

'Special situations' are q. another matter...

 

[sawood12]

The guys at Promax are building a 944 turbo into a 924 shell that has the 924 Carrera GT look- i.e. the 944 wings and GT rear flared wheel arches. I saw the empty shell when my car was in getting KW'd. It'll look the business when it is done. I think their plan is to race it. I even like the non-pop up headlights. If I could find a kit that has some modern Xenon lensed lights in them rather than a bog standard halogen rectangular unit i'd be tempted to ditch the pop-ups. I've never liked the look of the car with the headlights up. I keep on meaning to do the headlights down on switch posistion 1 mod.

 

[Hilux]

[blockquote]
[blockquote]

It's just a shame that Porsche havn't managed to retain some of the classic atmosphere and feeling of the earlier Porsches.

[/blockquote]
I always wanted a 930 (911 turbo) since I saw it on Motor Magazine cover way back in 75 or 76. A few years ago I went to buy an `older` style 911 and walked away. The offset pedals and switchgear all over the place put me off. I would love a LHD as these have the pedals in the right place but is impractical in the UK.

I have been on track in modern 911`s and they really are something else however watching Andrew S hunting down GT2 and 3 RS`s and overtaking them was impressive. The 944 was designed as a tourer but has beautiful balance but is still too heavy for my liking. If you`ve never been in an Elise turbo or a BEC/VX powered Westy/Catering van (read light and good PTWR) then its another experience altogether due to lack of inertia compared to other cars.


[blockquote]

The guys at Promax are building a 944 turbo into a 924 shell that has the 924 Carrera GT look- i.e. the 944 wings and GT rear flared wheel arches

[/blockquote]

Excellent as thats what I mean, light and powerful. My son is doing this little baby (hopefully about 750kg wet) and I`ve no doubt it will see off my 951.
​

[/blockquote]

 

[Fen]

The switchgear all over the place IS the old 911 - that's one of the biggest charms of the car. Who cares where the switches are after all? It doesn't make a better driving tool.

What's going to power the Golf? Is the dash coming out?

 

[Hilux]

I appreciate that the switches are all over the place but that and the offset pedals really disappointed me, especially when I finally went to buy one having drooled all those years. I test drove a 911 targa and it was definitely tail happy so I never got the bug.

Dash is staying in as it`ll be a road car also but he`s looking at g60/audi/golf 20v etc etc (depends on what his insurance will cost as he`s only 19 at the mo [&o]) Its got KW , ATS wheels, Mk 2 rear beam (disc brakes), he`s saving for roll cages and strut braces etc etc (all subject to an insurance quote[8|])

Bless him.......mind you having driven his extremely rapid 1.3 Mk 1 driver I cant wait to see it up and running.

 

[Fen]

Tail happy IS old 911.. haven't we done this before..?

You mistake was trying a Targa - neither fish nor fowl and the one car that showed me compromise is frequently the worst of both worlds, not the best. All the chassis flex and wind noise of a cabrio without the open air feeling of a cabrio.

That said you don't "get" the 911 and lots of people don't. I like it for it's random switches, wildly fluctuating dials and best of all the feeling of weight behind. You should try a 964 - much more your thing I bet.

 

[Guest]

Scott,
You use the Hella componant HID lights, they are about £600 for a set though

As for the main subject. Petrol head first Porsche well down the list.
How can anybody have any over riding respect for a company that now designs Kettles, Toasters and portable computer hard drives as well as umbrellas etc etc
I love the 944's the 924 Carrerra GT, the 930 for what it did for turbo charging and of course the 917 and group C stuff. Even teh early 911's have charm. The rest of it is unfortunately corporate wear and the 911 has been used for too long as a cash cow when there have been better platforms out there like todays Cayman

 

[Neil Haughey]

ORIGINAL: tommo951

As for the main subject. Petrol head first Porsche well down the list.
How can anybody have any over riding respect for a company that now designs Kettles, Toasters and portable computer hard drives as well as umbrellas etc etc

Have you seen how much they want for those pieces of plasticky cr*p! I was in John Lewis's with me mum and she spotted the toaster, hugely dissapointing that a company like Porsche could associate themselves with something so lame. I think anyone spending 100+ quid on cheapo 20 quid toaster with Porsche written on it needs their head feeling.

 

[sawood12]

I'm going to stick up for the 911 again. This talk of it being a cash cow - of course it's true. Porsche are in the business of making money and the 911 is a big seller due to the reputation it has deservidly built up over the years. And Porsche would be crazy to give that up. There is not another car company out there that doesn't look to what Porsche have with the 911 with envy. Porsche were the same in the early days, they are the same now. If you think that Porsche were ever in it due to a sence of duty or something else then you are mistaken. The early Porsches were raw and ready because Porsche didn't have the big budgets of the other car makers. If they did they would have been similarly plush inside.

But lets not forget something here. The 911 well and truly deserves its accolade and still does. The car still does the business time and time again. Look how many times other companies roll out a '911 killer' and guess what - it ends up getting killed by the 911. Even the latest tranche isn't upto the task (AM's, BMW's, Audi's and arguably Lambos and definately Ferrari's). Not forgetting that the 911 is a good £20k cheaper than the competition and can genuinly be used as a daily driver with sensible service intervals (upto 20k miles - you are looking at alot less than that with a Ferrari). Yes the Cayman is the new kid on the block and it looks promising, but it still has to do the business. It may be less powerfull than the 911, but the 911 is less powerfull than the competition but still manages to give them a spanking. There are planty of other mid-engined sportscars out there that have failed to do one over the 911, why should the Cayman be any different. There is so, so much more to a good sportscar than 50/50 weight distribution.

 

[Ian B Walker]

Robert, you have taste [] . I am the Proprietor of a Mercedes Workshop and your choice of a Merc is what many people aspire too. Just make sure you keep it in tune. However, owning multiple Mercs is nice but driving Otto (944) is real fun.

 

[Hilux]

You should try a 964 - much more your thing I bet.

I`ve a mind to Fen but the 944 fits my requirements at the mo. I have decided (when I get more time) to `lighten it` and firm it up a bit more. Perhaps I`ll book a test drive [] I also feel that I could work on and maintain a 964 easily compared to the 951. Whats the optimum 964 to look for then?

Yes the Cayman is the new kid on the block and it looks promising, but it still has to do the business. It may be less powerfull than the 911, but the 911 is less powerfull than the competition but still manages to give them a spanking. There are planty of other mid-engined sportscars out there that have failed to do one over the 911, why should the Cayman be any different.

I have no doubt that Porsche know it will knock socks off the 911 if given the power but they had to pitch it between boxster and 911 with regard to price and power output. It is the next 911 in all but name I believe.

The latest crop of 911`s rely on massive power on massive tyres with PASM etc. They also weigh 16 or 1700 kilos ??? I believe.

 

[Fen]

ORIGINAL: sawood12

I'm going to stick up for the 911 again. This talk of it being a cash cow - of course it's true. Porsche are in the business of making money and the 911 is a big seller due to the reputation it has deservidly built up over the years. And Porsche would be crazy to give that up. There is not another car company out there that doesn't look to what Porsche have with the 911 with envy. Porsche were the same in the early days, they are the same now. If you think that Porsche were ever in it due to a sence of duty or something else then you are mistaken. The early Porsches were raw and ready because Porsche didn't have the big budgets of the other car makers. If they did they would have been similarly plush inside.

But lets not forget something here. The 911 well and truly deserves its accolade and still does. The car still does the business time and time again. Look how many times other companies roll out a '911 killer' and guess what - it ends up getting killed by the 911. Even the latest tranche isn't upto the task (AM's, BMW's, Audi's and arguably Lambos and definately Ferrari's). Not forgetting that the 911 is a good £20k cheaper than the competition and can genuinly be used as a daily driver with sensible service intervals (upto 20k miles - you are looking at alot less than that with a Ferrari). Yes the Cayman is the new kid on the block and it looks promising, but it still has to do the business. It may be less powerfull than the 911, but the 911 is less powerfull than the competition but still manages to give them a spanking. There are planty of other mid-engined sportscars out there that have failed to do one over the 911, why should the Cayman be any different. There is so, so much more to a good sportscar than 50/50 weight distribution.

My point is that the current 911 trades off the reputation the torsion sprung cars earned but is nothing like them in spirit or even design save for engine placement and layout.. By all means truly develop and improve, but the 996 on supplanted the true 911 with an impostor.

In Evo the R8 kicked the 911 backside - I don't read any other mags so I don't know what others say about it, but Evo has been accused of being Porsche promoting in the past so that's a big deal.

The Cayman would also beat the 911 - the same engineers with a blank canvas can beat what they do with their hands tied behind their backs with a rear engine placement. Don't you believe Walter Rohl?

Hulix - probably just a nice Carrera 2 manual I's suggest. Preferably a later one (1992 ideally).

 

[Hilux]

Derek Bell drove a standard 944 turbo round the ring in 88 in 8 mins 30 IIRC (although I may well be corrected)

Whats the current 997`s time??

 

[RC18B 911 turbo]

My point is that the current 911 trades off the reputation the torsion sprung cars earned but is nothing like them in spirit or even design save for engine placement and layout.. By all means truly develop and improve, but the 996 on supplanted the true 911 with an impostor.

In Evo the R8 kicked the 911 backside - I don't read any other mags so I don't know what others say about it, but Evo has been accused of being Porsche promoting in the past so that's a big deal.

The Cayman would also beat the 911 - the same engineers with a blank canvas can beat what they do with their hands tied behind their backs with a rear engine placement. Don't you believe Walter Rohl?

Hulix - probably just a nice Carrera 2 manual I's suggest. Preferably a later one (1992 ideally).

I've atually seen the new R8 (well 4 of them on the back of a transporter) and I don't think they look very nice at the front, I quite like the back of them but there's something about the front end I don't like, also autocar and I believe Car magazine have said that the R8 isn't as good as the 911 but I tend to think EVO is more accurate in their testing of the cars anyway.

 

[Fen]

Looks are in the eye of the beholder. Personally I have liked the R8 since I first saw it but I know others don't like the look. It's very colour dependant also because it has the grey slash through the side. The one I had a proper look at (as in a proper walk round, sit in etc.) was dark silver and I think probably that's the best colour for it.

Again reviews are subjective to a point. I know that Car or Autocar or someone have the RS4 ahead of the new M3 with Evo suggesting it's close but the other way round. What that means to me is that it's close and possibly down to personal preference.

Taking that to the R8/997 comparison Audi's first attempt at a junior supercar is already so close to the 997 that some say it's better.

 

[Robert Edwards]

ORIGINAL: Ian B Walker

Robert, you have taste [] . I am the Proprietor of a Mercedes Workshop and your choice of a Merc is what many people aspire too. Just make sure you keep it in tune. However, owning multiple Mercs is nice but driving Otto (944) is real fun.

Glad you approve, Ian. Actually, I've just bought another 2.3 Cossie, which came with a whole load of spares - engine, ' Getrag box, extra head, two exhaust manifolds body panels, spoilers and all those mysterious relays and senders etc., etc., not to mention two complete gasket sets, chains and tensioners. So, a bargain! I'm having it all palleted down next week.

Frankly, I'm just mad about them, which might delay the search for the 944 somewhat. The engine is remarkable; the 2.3 (oversquare) will spin to 8000 with no problems, whereas the later 2.5s runs out at 7. I'm looking out for flow bench numbers. Apparently they're all the rage in Scandinavia, where they take tuning off the chart.

 

[sawood12]

The R8 isn't strictly Audi's first attempt as a Supercar - don't forget the Lambo's. Also the reviews I've read compares the R8 to the 997C2S as they are roughly equivalent in price, and they are pretty similar in performance despite the 997S being down on power with only 2wd. The 997 turbo would spank it's backside from here to the next decade. The first reveiws of the new M3 i've read the reviewers have been dissapointed with it as a driving experience, though i've not read any back to back reviews with other cars so i'm not sure how it stacks up with the competition. It's also interesting to note that for the first time BMW have used a bespoke chassis for the M3 - does that mean the current 3-series chassis isn't good enough?

I actually think that Porsche are taking a gently, gently approach with phasing out the 911 with the Caymen. They've had their fingers burned before with trying the straight replacement strategy. The first step is to take it racing and get it some racing pedigree. My only problem with the Caymen is that it is overpriced considering it's raw performance. Yes on the track it can probably hold it's own, but most of the people buying them wont take them anywhere near the track and will go off the seat of the pants feeling of the performance of the car.

Derek bell sounds like he was taking his time. Davyboy has done it in his turbo in 8m 19s! I think it's Evo mag that has spent £15k on an M3 (the old square one - no idea which model) to beat the 8 min barrier on the ring. Its completely stripped out with trick breaks, tyres, full roll cage, all the bells and whistles and I don't think they have done it yet. They should have saved themselves £7k and got a 944 turbo.