New 944 S2 owner saying hello

[A.Wang]

I was lucky enough to get a ride in a stripped out 944 S2 on a previous track day, and fell in love with the car! My current track day toy (Toyota Supra Mk3 n/a) was no comparsion whatsoever...and I've been looking to get a 944 S2 as a track day toy ever since.

Recently I came across a '89 944 S2 in Guards Red, and having made a few calls, worked out how much it'd cost to strip and prep it for track days. The car is going for a fairly sensible price for a S2, but that's due to Cat. C damage (fully repaired with documents to back it up) - I'll be taking a mechanic mate along for the test drive etc. and if that goes well, I'll be the newest addition to the club soon!

I have not been this excited about a car for a while, I really hope it lives up to expectation! For now though, I just wanted to say hi and introduce myself to the club!

[EDIT : I am no longer a prospective owner!]

 

[Diver944]

Hi Andy and welcome to the forum. These cars are a great choice for trackday use because of their excellent balance and 50/50 weight distribution. I look forwad to seeing pics of yours and following your preparations/ stripping for the track

 

[sweetpea]

I too look forward to the updates.... Welcome to the forum [] Mike

 

[Fen]

I'd be interested to hear how you go also, though I have to ask - did you consider the 250 Turbo as a track car rather than the S2? Unless you especially don't like forced induction it's a better bet in every way IMO; bigger brakes, more tunable, bigger ARBs, stiffer suspension, more tyre, LSD, stronger driveshafts etc.

 

[appletonn]

I know where there is an S2 going cheap - interior already stripped out but will need some mechanical fettling as it has not been on the road for 18 months i believe. Bodywork very solid with no rust, but not that shiny! Should be under £2k, if you are interested.

 

[A.Wang]

ORIGINAL: Fen I'd be interested to hear how you go also, though I have to ask - did you consider the 250 Turbo as a track car rather than the S2? Unless you especially don't like forced induction it's a better bet in every way IMO; bigger brakes, more tunable, bigger ARBs, stiffer suspension, more tyre, LSD, stronger driveshafts etc.

I did look at the Turbo and that's an awesome car - I'm trying to avoid old forced induction cars though, as IMO they're often too fragile for sustained track use - I'm planning at least a dozen track days in 2009 so whatever I get will have to stand up to the harsh driving! What I'm planning to do on the S2, as a "stage 2" round of upgrades, is to add the Turbo's brakes, ARBs and LSD. Suspension will already have been upgraded to racing coilovers as part of the initial work.

 

[A.Wang]

ORIGINAL: appletonn I know where there is an S2 going cheap - interior already stripped out but will need some mechanical fettling as it has not been on the road for 18 months i believe. Bodywork very solid with no rust, but not that shiny! Should be under £2k, if you are interested.

Nick, I'll definitely be interested to find out more about it - I sent you a PM, not sure if that's behaving or not...

 

[appletonn]

Not had PM, sorry. Drop me a line at na001i0168@blueyonder.co.uk and I'll let you have some more details. Car is in North West of England.

 

[Fen]

If it's just fragility you're worried about then I think there are enough people tracking Turbos on here that you should be significantly appeased. They need a head gasket if they are still on the original and the factory wastegate is pretty poor, but once those things are addressed the car will drive as it should and with a chip could easily give you a reliable and genuine 280bhp. If you want to do all you suggest to the S2 you will be looking at a lot more money to prepare it than if you started with the Turbo also (and having been there and done it I know it's not a cheap exercise even with a Turbo), but for me the biggest downside is that if (when) you decide you want it to go faster between the corners your options will basically be fit a supercharger for more than the cost of the car or live with it. I'm not trying to direct you toward a Turbo as a sales pitch - if for no other reason than I'm not sure I really want to sell it - but I would probably part with my trackday prepped Turbo if you twisted my arm. My real reason for suggesting a Turbo is that most on here agree you buy an S2 to drive standard and a Turbo to modify, though there isn't anything a Turbo chassis can do that you can't make an S2 do with money and finding the right parts.

 

[appletonn]

ORIGINAL: Fen If it's just fragility you're worried about then I think there are enough people tracking Turbos on here that you should be significantly appeased. They need a head gasket if they are still on the original and the factory wastegate is pretty poor, but once those things are addressed the car will drive as it should and with a chip could easily give you a reliable and genuine 280bhp. If you want to do all you suggest to the S2 you will be looking at a lot more money to prepare it than if you started with the Turbo also (and having been there and done it I know it's not a cheap exercise even with a Turbo), but for me the biggest downside is that if (when) you decide you want it to go faster between the corners your options will basically be fit a supercharger for more than the cost of the car or live with it. I'm not trying to direct you toward a Turbo as a sales pitch - if for no other reason than I'm not sure I really want to sell it - but I would probably part with my trackday prepped Turbo if you twisted my arm. My real reason for suggesting a Turbo is that most on here agree you buy an S2 to drive standard and a Turbo to modify, though there isn't anything a Turbo chassis can do that you can't make an S2 do with money and finding the right parts.

I would agree with fen about the fragility (or rather not!) but having done a couple of trackdays in my Turbo in the last couple of months, I would like to be slightly contrary and say that I think the S2 could be a more effective trackday car once lightened, stripped out and with the right suspension and brakes. My car was superb at Donnington in the dry but less fun at Oulton Park in the wet, where the combination of wet track, lag and occasional traction issues ([]) made it less effective than a 968 (S2 'ish power to weight ratio) The driver probably needs uprating too, though....[8|] []

 

[Fen]

Surely that's logic that, if extended, would suggest a 2 litre 924 would be the best of the breed on track though, Nick? Even with a fairly huge and agricultural Lindsey Super 75 (which I wouldn't recommend) my car was fine on track because of it's good wastegate and decent engine map and it was always in the power band. It was a bit lairy on a wet Silverstone, but that was before I had had time to set up the suspension and it was very much on "dry" damping and ARB rates, and with hindsight the tyres had too much pressure in them. I don't believe for a second there is significant weight difference between the S2 and Turbo if you strip out the air-con etc. that the S2 usually doesn't have, and the only reason there might be traction issues would have to be different power output or delivery (as both models can be wearing the same wheels/tyres and suspension setup). Actually suspension is important here - I was literally amazed by the traction difference with KW; even with the far side of 350bhp on a wet road and with cold trackday tyres my car would break traction less readily than it did when standard. I think most of the KW owners agree vastly improved traction is an unexpected bonus from the upgrade.

 

[A.Wang]

Aside from the fragility of the Turbo - unfortunately being a twenty-something guy wanting to get my mid-life crisis over with early, I need to keep one eye on costs...a Turbo would cost at least twice of what I'll be paying for the S2, and I'll still need a cage (£1500 fitted and certified to MSA/FIA standards) before I'd take it out on track. When things break on a Turbo the parts would inevitably cost more. What I'm after is effectively a 968CS in a 944 shell - the power wouldn't be far off (the car I'm looking at is chipped to a verified 230bhp), and with suitable stripping/weight reduction and suspension/brakes upgrades I'll be more than half-way there. And for a fraction of the average 968CS asking price too!

 

[Fen]

With respect I think you need to research further. It's a common misconception that parts for a Turbo would cost more. Turbos have no Achilles heel beyond the wastegate and head gasket I mentioned earlier. The S2 has the cam chains/cams which are being discussed for iteration 3254 in another thread just now. Bottom line; it's a 4 figure bill to fix that properly and they will all need it sooner or later. There are no unique to Turbo parts that are fragile, and in fact the majority of early Turbo parts are common with the S2 - the later Turbos were upgraded and the S2 effectively got the early Turbo chassis. You also say you'll be wanting to fit Turbo brakes, which (to do it right, which it sounds like you want to do) means you need later Turbo or M030 hubs rather than Walt Disney adapters. Rocking-horse doo-doo to find and hence not cheap if you do - the Turbo already has them. You want to fit the LSD. S2 'boxes with LSD are also very, very rare. The Turbo already has one; to be fair it isn't a great LSD and it will be tired by this time, but it's better than nothing and easier/cheaper to refurb the one you have than find a used one and probably have to refurb it as well. It's not going to make any real difference to me if you buy an S2 or a Turbo (yes I'd be prepared to talk to you about a deal on my ready-built car, but I know in all likelihood it's unlikely you'll ultimately buy it), but I really think you're in danger of making a mistake with your first decision. Fair enough if you have an S2 already that you want to turn into a trackday car, but when you're starting out then you should get the best tool for the job, which IMO is the Turbo, and I don't think your logic for choosing an S2 is borne out by the experience of people on here. I've had 2 S2s and 3 Turbos if that helps you believe what I have to say; I know what they are and aren't and I know the comparable reliability (both are very, very good) and running costs (no difference except the Turbo is thirstier and needs can use better fuel). Lastly S2s don't chip to 230bhp - they just don't. Sorry, but it's a fact. The 968 is not a superior car to the 944 - it has some differences, but aside cosmetics they are all in the area of NVH and luxury. There is no good reason to track a 968 over a 944. The ClubSport was a cynical marketing ploy by Porsche - it was barely if at all lighter than the full production S2 that preceeded it and most of the "lightweight" parts are looky-likey light weight and just as heavy as the ordinary car's parts.

 

[edh]

I almost agree with Fen - although I think running a turbocharged car on tracks is a bit more expensive. They aren't fragile cars though - I wouldn't worry about that. You've probably got a better chance of finding a track ready turbo - there was a LHD one kicking about for quite a while recently at a good price. The initial costs of preparing an S2 might be greater, but once that's done, you can't really spend much more to make it go faster. On the other hand, 300+bhp is easily accessible in the turbo, and you can keep on developing the car as far as your money will take you. The more power you make, the quicker things will wear out or break. There's no doubt that the extra shove from the turbo makes things more fun. It's a bit tricky in the wet, but you just have to accept that a heavy RWD car may not keep up with some lightweight FWD hatches on slippery tracks. One question - why would you want to spend £1500 on a cage for trackdays? (I know this is bringing up stuff that has been discussed recently) - that sounds like an awful lot of money for a cage. How much road use will the car get? (and is a full cage a good idea on the road with no helmet?)

 

[944 man]

Also: how often do 944s turn over? Ive seen enough crashed 4 cylinder cars to describe as 'hundreds' and very very few of those have been over.

 

[A.Wang]

With regard to a cage - in this past year alone, I've seen two cars roll over on track. Admittedly neither were Porsches, but still quite scary from a bystander's perspective. These guys had full cages in their cars, and walked away with no injuries whatsoever - I'm just paranoid and want to take safety very seriously. In my current track toy, I have a half-cage (basically a roll bar with reinforcements), and that's just about acceptable to me. If I'm doing it from scratch, I'd want to do it right. I don't intend to drive the car much on the road, only to and from tracks/airfields, so I'm not too worried about the full cage/road use issue. I'm still very much trying to find my limits, and an ARDS instructor mate is helping me out with doing that. Also, whilst boooost is very cool, I have been caught out by it (specifically the turbo lag and surge in the wet) the few times I tracked my daily drive (an Audi TT Mk2 2.0T)...so perhaps that's another reason why I'm reluctant to go down the 994T route.

 

[944 man]

Id think long and hard about spending £1,000 on an item of questionable worth, that may well kill me in an on road accident, which also adds 50 high-up kilogrammes to the car... Simon (currently thinking hard about having the roof chopped off his car to fit a cage...)

 

[Fen]

I hear all what you're saying (and Simon and Ed re: the cage and I have to say I'm torn between both outlooks on that point), but I genuinely think you might find an S2 is a more expensive build to get to a similar specification and ultimately a frustrating one as the car can't so readily grow with you in terms of power.

 

[edh]

I wouldn't want to criticize anyone for wanting to be safe - but I did think £1500 was a tad expensive. I think the issue with the turbo in the wet is not really lag, it's just that you have loads more torque available than in the S2, so it's more likely to break traction on the exit to a corner. Whichever car you get, you'll have a blast, The main thing is to get out on the track & enjoy yourself []

 

[sawood12]

To be honest my experience of trackdays is that the fun is in the driving whatever you're driving. The S2 will make a superb track-slag, though to back up Ed and Fen turbo's are not fragile or unreliable in any way. There are plenty being thrashed all day long on track up and down the country and even more across the pond and Europe and even a few down under, and they have proved to be uber-reliable - even when tuned and churning out signifantly more power and torque than stock. These things really are bullet proof. Anyway, if an S2 is your weapon of choice and you got a £2k S2 and spent a further £2k on it preping it for track-days (safety devices, brakes, LSD, etc) and a further £1k or so for the obligatory first year of 944 ownership costs you've got an investment of £5k and a car that will be more than capable of embarraing equipment that is ten times it's value. So whether it be S2, turbo - and don't automatically discount the good old Lux - fill yer boots!!