New 944 S2 owner saying hello
- Thread starter A.Wang
- Start date
I've read a range of views tonight, all passionately argued, all valid! This makes my life much harder deciding on my 944 project! And I thought it'd be hard enough to pick which Porsche I'd want to affordably run as a second car/track toy in my quarter-life crisis! 
As for track days - I do it for two reasons...the sheer fun of driving a car hard, and to improve my driving skills. If I had to pick, I'd put more emphasis on the latter, and I'm lucky to have a guiding hand in the form of a mate who's an ARDS instructor. I'll run the turbo/non-turbo argument pass him and see what he thinks, although I suspect I know the answer already...given my relatively lack of track experience (8 track days to date, 4 in a RWD car).
As for track days - I do it for two reasons...the sheer fun of driving a car hard, and to improve my driving skills. If I had to pick, I'd put more emphasis on the latter, and I'm lucky to have a guiding hand in the form of a mate who's an ARDS instructor. I'll run the turbo/non-turbo argument pass him and see what he thinks, although I suspect I know the answer already...given my relatively lack of track experience (8 track days to date, 4 in a RWD car).Can I pretty much assume that the cams/tensioners/chains will need to be done if they haven't been replaced since leaving the factory, or is it a matter of pot-luck? I've read a fair few threads about this infamous problem with S2s but still can't tell whether it's a given (much like the head gaskets are prone to blow on Toyota Supra Mk3s after 150,000 miles), or only if the car has had a hard life...ORIGINAL: edh Fen's point is that it will cost a lot more than 2k to sort an S2 (and that's 2K after you've done the cams
Neil Haughey
New member
Its true that in the S2 you find you just don't reach anything like the high speeds on the straights obtainable in high powered cars. However this also has the benefit that your brakes are not worked as hard and thus some of the stress on the chassis is less as less torque when on the right peddle and less time on the middle one. There is an argument that says you don't need bigger tyres then what is determined by the rear tyre size needed to transmit the power. In an S2 in the dry this means that sticky stock size rubber on 16" is probably perfect and like Scott says if going mega fast is not your aim an S2 track toy makes a lot of sense. One point often overlooked is the gearing. I found that in my S2 the short gears means you are right up buzzing between 4K and 6K pretty much all the time and this gives a great impression of speed whereas the faster turbo perversely seems slower in some ways because of the longer gears (if you ignore G forces etc.).
Neil Haughey
New member
It isn't my own car is up at 172K miles on original cams and headgasket. However it is a given that the cam sprockets, chain and tensioner top pad absolutely must be checked on any S2/968 with more then 100K miles that doesn't have a known top end condition. On top of that I would check again every couple of years. Head gasket is a worry on mine as I have feeling that like on any car there is a good chance of failure due to the fact its now 18 years old, I am just thinking of a good time to tackle it.
Neil Haughey
New member
I like the sound of my S2 with the Cat bypass pipe but I think some ppl don't like the sound. It sounds pretty fruity to me when on cam but still not a patch on a nice 6, V8, V10, V12. The S2 only does just under 60 in 2nd, about 85 mph in 3rd and somewhere not a lot over 100 mph in 4th so what I meant was that you transition a lot between 4K and 6K in the S2 on track as the gear stick gets a lot of use. You definitely have to like changing gears to enjoy driving an S2 on track [ORIGINAL: edh One downside is that turbo is very quiet - no sense of drama (I have no difficulty in keeping it between 4 & 6k though [
]
I wouldn't expect them to; I'm not using that analogy to in any way put down the 924. I think arguably you could say go for a 924 OR a 944 Turbo, depending if you want the sweet chassis or the maximum straight line grunt in the sweet chassis. Anything else in between is a less focused variant.
Diver944
Active member
Yes and no. Certainly the chains and slipper should be done every 50k miles or so as a service item. If this is done regularly then there is evidence that the cams will last a long time. My own S2 is now just under 190k miles on the original cams. I first changed the chain and slipper at 90k miles when I bought it and then again at 150k miles. Next time should be early next year during it's Spring service (and of course I am dreading the report of a worn sprocket [
] )
Diver944
Active member
Yes and no. Certainly the chains and slipper should be done every 50k miles or so as a service item. If this is done regularly then there is evidence that the cams will last a long time. My own S2 is now just under 190k miles on the original cams (and with several trackdays before I bought the Turbo for trackwork). I first changed the chain and slipper at 90k miles when I bought it and then again at 150k miles. Next time should be early next year during it's Spring service (and of course I am dreading the report of a worn sprocket [
] )
I'm interested in your comments Paul...there's another thread going where this has arisen. My S2 has just been in for belts/rollers/water pump (at 97k) and whilst they were at it Northway inspected the cams/sprockets. They reckoned the sprockets looked OK, but as the chain/tensioner doesn't ever seem to have been replaced they renewed that. On the basis of your experience I might expect all that to be OK now for some time. Comforting!
Neil Haughey
New member
Yes I agree, I did think this with regards to the handling in as much as I asked myself the question do I really want much stiffer suspension and even grippier tyres. I think the experience so far is no, its more fun IMHO to be at a pace whereby you aren't constantly stuck behind other cars looking to get past. IMHO the S2 on stock size wheels with R compound tyres has pretty much the perfect balance between power and grip (assuming no LSD here like me, with an LSD I think it would be underpowered).
Hi All Interesting reading here as im in the process of ending my 6 year affair with my fastroad/trackday Mitsu Evo2 and looking at a 944 as replacement, its been a long period for me to own a car but it has been so much fun ive just kept throwing money at it to keep it tiptop, however after another gearbox has failed ive deceided its time to move on The 944 ticks most of the boxes im after and just cant deceide on either a S2 or a turbo, was hoping for a later turbo but they may be out of my price range hence and also looking at S2's as an easier less hassle N/A option after past years of turbo fun with the Evo! I was hoping that an S2 was going to be rock solid with no issues, however im trying to get away from spending every weekend taking cars apart so all this talk of cam chains/tensioners an headgasket problems has got me wondering, am i right in thinking the turbo is the same engine in early and late cars ? and also doesnt suffer from the above S2 problem ? Thanks Ian
Interesting reading here as im in the process of ending my 6 year affair with my fastroad/trackday Mitsu Evo2 and looking at a 944 as replacement, its been a long period for me to own a car but it has been so much fun ive just kept throwing money at it to keep it tiptop, however after another gearbox has failed ive deceided its time to move on The 944 ticks most of the boxes im after and just cant deceide on either a S2 or a turbo, was hoping for a later turbo but they may be out of my price range hence and also looking at S2's as an easier less hassle N/A option after past years of turbo fun with the Evo! I was hoping that an S2 was going to be rock solid with no issues, however im trying to get away from spending every weekend taking cars apart so all this talk of cam chains/tensioners an headgasket problems has got me wondering, am i right in thinking the turbo is the same engine in early and late cars ? and also doesnt suffer from the above S2 problem ? Thanks Ian
edh
New member
The turbo engine is the same in all models - later models have a larger turbocharger. This gives you a bit more torque and power, and a little more tuning potential. You get earlier boost in a 220 model, and it runs out of steam a little earlier, but it is still a fairly quick car. You need to be realistic about owning a 944. They are very solid cars, but they are also 20 years old. That means they will always need money spending on them to keep them in good shape, particularly given the extra hammer they get on tracks. I wouldn't imagine you could run a 160k Evo as a track car, but I'm doing just that with my 944 . Turbos cost more to run, mainly because you can spend more money on mods . There will be plenty of pretty sad cars out there now that will need £3K+ spending to get them into reasonable shape. You're much better off buying a good one, and it shouldn't cost you loads more. (The ex-Noble one being discussed right now looked worth investigating) The cam/chain etc.. issue for S2's (and S's - it's a 16V issue only) is a one-off cost - get one that's been done & you can pretty much forget about it for 50k. The gearboxes on all the models are very strong - although they can be a little noisy (not all are though). I don't think headgaskets are a problem with S2's, and aren't a major issue for turbos. You will blow a 20yr old headgasket if you run on track & turn up the boost (and I can guarantee you will tun up the boost []) It's very cheap to add another 30-50 hp and 50lbft to a 250 turbo, but sooner or later you will need to renew the headgasket. It's only a £5-600 job though, so not the end of the world, and might even be worth doing as a preventative measure if there is no history of one being done, and if the belts need doing (that's half the cost of the job). Have a drive of a 944 & see if you like it - It will be very different from a Jap car. The controls are much heavier, and it can feel a little agricultural until you get in tune with the very "mechanical" feel of the car. In fact it's worth driving a few, as the first one you drive is likely to be a turbo with a tired wastegate that won't hold more than 5psi []
]) It's very cheap to add another 30-50 hp and 50lbft to a 250 turbo, but sooner or later you will need to renew the headgasket. It's only a £5-600 job though, so not the end of the world, and might even be worth doing as a preventative measure if there is no history of one being done, and if the belts need doing (that's half the cost of the job). Have a drive of a 944 & see if you like it - It will be very different from a Jap car. The controls are much heavier, and it can feel a little agricultural until you get in tune with the very "mechanical" feel of the car. In fact it's worth driving a few, as the first one you drive is likely to be a turbo with a tired wastegate that won't hold more than 5psi []Neither 944 should have you spending your weekends with the oily bits as a matter of course, but both can have issues. The Turbo is the one that usually blows a head gasket if it's original, especially if you turn the boost up a bit. The S2 (and S) is the one with the cam chain as the 16v head has one cam driven by a simplex chain from the other. The 8v engines (including all Turbos) have only the one cam. Broadly all Turbo engines are the same with only detail differences to the core engine. The earliest are actually arguably the best as they have forged rods, but the later 250 cars have a bigger turbo and reliability changes to things like the cam belt tensioner (they all have a belt, 16v included, in fact a pair as there is a balance shaft belt also). The tensioner should be replaced with a later one when it is changed so you might not see the old design any more. I think the water pump was also upgraded in a similar way. On the downside the early Turbo is basically the S2 chassis with the thinner ARBs and non-LSD 'box - in fact the really early ones have a unique suspension setup in that they use alloy front arms but have the same geometry as the early pressed-steel arm NA cars and no ABS. I'm afraid I'm not much of a Jap fan so I know very little about the Evo 2, but if yours habitually breaks gearboxes isn't it going to be pushing enough ponies that an S2 might feel a little sedate in comparison? On a good day an S2 will make close to the headline 211bhp and there isn't an awful lot more to come (and what there is will be very hard gained) whereas a later Turbo can easily give 300bhp+ very reliably with about £1k-£1.5k in mods.
Thanks for the info guys thats very usefull, pretty ,much what i suspected but wasnt totally sure on the engine and specs etc. I dont mind working on the car to keep things tiptop and have done all the complete rebuild work on the Evo except the gearbox and enjoyed it all, but now dont fancy doing ti all again and am hoping for something that just needs a good service every month or so, as opposed to the evo which needs it every 2 weeks to keep things good. Ive been into the jap stuff for awhile but feel the tuning/spending never stops and the current car while isnt powerful by many standard is putting out a reliable 400hp/400ftlbs but even at this level breakages occur, probably a lot to do with age etc as well, also i dont feel i enjoy it much more than the stock car which was 250/220 when i bought it 6 years or so ago, only upgrading it after balance shaft belt failure took out the timing belt and engine topend...from then on its been a slippery slop with 2.3 stroked forged interals, bigger turbo, autronics managment etc etc etc [&:] I like the idea of the n/a S2 for simplicty but am thinking i may well soon be craving for a little more power, im not looking for big numbers but a nice reliable and solid 280-300hp rwd car is what im thinking will be perfect for my needs, so the turbo with light mods seems to be the one for me, however i will try and get a drive in both S2 and the two turbo options to see what each feels like. Only problems i guess are as you say may be finding a good example to get a benchmark from. Does the early 220hp turbo need much more work than later models to get it upto the 280hp area ? In the meantime i will carry on stripping the Evo and selling off the parts for the 944 fund , this weekend i must get the engine out and all packed up and off to Russia for its new owner!, i will keep researching the 944 models and try and get a drive in the various options Thanks again and i will no doubt be back with more questions soon Ian
, this weekend i must get the engine out and all packed up and off to Russia for its new owner!, i will keep researching the 944 models and try and get a drive in the various options Thanks again and i will no doubt be back with more questions soon Ian
edh
New member
The early turbo will get you to about 270 bhp - you can always bolt on a bigger turbo for more power. Later 26/8 turbos will go to 300 ish. You can get there with new wastegate / boost controller / chips (and probably injectors). There are lots of ways of spending more money if you really need to....(and you can rely on us to help spend your money []) The cars are quite heavy - 1300-1400 kilos, which is bit lardy for a track car, but they go suprisingly well. [link=http://www.cannell3.co.uk/944%20UK%20League.htm]http://www.cannell3.co.uk/944%20UK%20League.htm[/link] gives you an idea of the power & various mods required.
]) The cars are quite heavy - 1300-1400 kilos, which is bit lardy for a track car, but they go suprisingly well. [link=http://www.cannell3.co.uk/944%20UK%20League.htm]http://www.cannell3.co.uk/944%20UK%20League.htm[/link] gives you an idea of the power & various mods required.Thanks again edh [] sounds like either will do what i need, so just a case of getting the best of the bunch within budget etc....as usual! [] I dont plan on just building a track only car as it will be my weekend toy with the odd trackday and euro/nurburg trip maybe thrown in, weight wise i was suprised how light they are so dont think the 1300-1400kg to be a problem, was thinking they may be the wrong side of 1500 so was a pleasant suprise and one of the reasons im looking at these [] Ian
] sounds like either will do what i need, so just a case of getting the best of the bunch within budget etc....as usual! [] I dont plan on just building a track only car as it will be my weekend toy with the odd trackday and euro/nurburg trip maybe thrown in, weight wise i was suprised how light they are so dont think the 1300-1400kg to be a problem, was thinking they may be the wrong side of 1500 so was a pleasant suprise and one of the reasons im looking at these [] Ian
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