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PDK......2500 miles and more feedback

Senna

New member
It's been 3 months and 2500 miles since buying my new 997.2 in March and I thought I'd post some more feedback for those looking at buying PDK equipped cars.

Firstly, in my view Porsche should definitely look at giving us an intermediate setting between normal 'D' (or drive) mode and 'Sports' mode.
As many have already commented, Porsche have overdone it with their eco friendly D mode in that it attempts to hit 7th gear as soon as possible (without labouring the engine of course). Unfortunately driving in D mode with a reasonably light right foot makes the car feel as powerful as a 1.6 Focus. This is ok in town driving most of the time and sure when you put your foot down it changes later (or changes down a gear, from 7th to 6th which to be honest is still no good on most occasions). The problem and end result of D mode is the fact that the car lacks immediate and semi-subtle throttle responses one sometimes needs. The best way to get immediate response (EG for overtaking) aside from old fashioned kick-down (makes me cringe when I day those words) is to give the PDK paddles a few clicks to get it into lower gears. That's not as clear cut as it seems. I've done the following a couple times, travelling at 40-45mph in 7th (that's the gearboxes decision not mine) I commit to a fairly routine and safe overtaking manoeuvre by proceeding with a couple clicks down (not really knowing if the car is in 6th or 7th without resorting to taking my eyes off the road to look at the small square gear display on the dash) and whoops, not enough acceleration because was it turns out I was in 7th and now I'm in 5th (and on the wrong side of the road. Holy 1.6 focus! I need two more clicks now to take me down to 3rd for proper warp drive and safe overtaking.

Of course I could drive the thing in manual and keep messing around with the push pulls as I like to call them, (and this is great on occasion when Fleetwood Mac's Chains is playing via the ipod) but much of the time I really couldn't be bothered and want a more comfortable hassle free journey.

Sports mode is definitely not for me 95% of the time. There is no way this is enjoyable in and around London and what you end up with is a revvy manic mode which in my view is totally useless in busy parts of the country.

I'm sure it wouldn't be difficult for Porsche to come up with a programme that's a good half way house between the two.

One other gripe I have is something that I've never seen mentioned which in all honesty is quite weird as I'm pretty sure the following is the case for all PDK's.
Like many auto's (another cringy word) the car tends to keep nudging forward when D is engaged. The effect of the drivers foot on the brake pedal seems to almost put the gearbox/drive into neutral. Nothing wrong with this, in fact this is optimal for many reasons. Unfortunately, when wanting to set off from traffic lights or worse, join a main road, if your foot comes off the brake pedal and goes onto the accelerator pedal too quickly, the car just revs until THUD the gear engages. Apart from frightening you to death that you broke the car, or people behind you start hooting because 2 seconds have passed since the lights went green, there is also the fact that the oncoming car is almost on top of you before you actually get any drive into the pedal.

I've since learned to cheat by not having my foot fully depressed on the brake pedal. Instead I press the pedal very lightly whereby the car is almost on the verge of nudging forward but not quite. This is not as easy as it sound because the difference between the car going into neutral mode and being in gear is quite literally a few millimetres of brake pedal movement. The system is very clever, I've tried holding the car at traffic lights with the handbrake and this sends it to neutral too. Porsche should really be looking to cut this delay time by some way as as the end result is that it's really disconcerting and on some occasions actaully quite dangerous!

You might be wondering if I regret buying a PDK equipped car? Let me tell you, my next car will also be PDK equipped. Overall the car is a joy to use and I definitely wouldn't sacrifice the comfort and convenience (even with a few niggles) in exhange for a dead leg and dead brain in city driving. Don't get me wrong, I love manuals, been driving them for 30 years, unfortunately there is a hell of a lot more traffic around now than there was 30 years ago. Just check the average speed on you trip computers.
 
ORIGINAL: Senna

One other gripe I have is something that I've never seen mentioned which in all honesty is quite weird as I'm pretty sure the following is the case for all PDK's.
Like many auto's (another cringy word) the car tends to keep nudging forward when D is engaged. The effect of the drivers foot on the brake pedal seems to almost put the gearbox/drive into neutral. Nothing wrong with this, in fact this is optimal for many reasons. Unfortunately, when wanting to set off from traffic lights or worse, join a main road, if your foot comes off the brake pedal and goes onto the accelerator pedal too quickly, the car just revs until THUD the gear engages. Apart from frightening you to death that you broke the car, or people behind you start hooting because 2 seconds have passed since the lights went green, there is also the fact that the oncoming car is almost on top of you before you actually get any drive into the pedal.

Are you sure they are all like this? Doesn't sound right to me.
 
I don't suppose left-foot braking helps, does it? Even if you've got a little accelerator with the right foot?
 
Very useful to hear how PDK is performing - it doesn't sound much different from Tiptronic in terms of how the computer reacts to driver input - I haven't seen claims by Porsche that the logic is any different either. The best alternative I have come across is BMW who have a 5-6 point graduated driver controlled input ranging from sedentary to sport mode. In my experience this works quite well and allows for more continuous driver control rather than waiting for the computer to make up its mind.
What I find problematic (on Tiptronic) is that I often do not know where the computer is in the switch cycle and have been caught out a couple of times when I have switched down say just as the computer has and achieved 2 shifts rather than 1.
I would therefore like to see some sort of shift indicator as well as the in-between mode, if not more graduated, that you suggest.
I also think a heads-up display would be useful, although I have no active experience of using one, as I agree that looking at the dash to see the gear selection is not always desirable. 7 gears (PDK) is more of a problem than 5 (Tiptronic).
In my experience Porsche don't change features as such mid-cycle so it could be some time...
The neutral mode which you describe sounds far from helpful - have you had it confirmed that this is by design? What happens on hills?
 
ORIGINAL: DSM

ORIGINAL: Senna

One other gripe I have is something that I've never seen mentioned which in all honesty is quite weird as I'm pretty sure the following is the case for all PDK's.
Like many auto's (another cringy word) the car tends to keep nudging forward when D is engaged. The effect of the drivers foot on the brake pedal seems to almost put the gearbox/drive into neutral. Nothing wrong with this, in fact this is optimal for many reasons. Unfortunately, when wanting to set off from traffic lights or worse, join a main road, if your foot comes off the brake pedal and goes onto the accelerator pedal too quickly, the car just revs until THUD the gear engages. Apart from frightening you to death that you broke the car, or people behind you start hooting because 2 seconds have passed since the lights went green, there is also the fact that the oncoming car is almost on top of you before you actually get any drive into the pedal.

Are you sure they are all like this? Doesn't sound right to me.
As explained really. And tbh the system is logical as it reduces stress to the drive train, less chance of hot brake disks warping etc. What we really need is for the car to go into drive gear much faster (ie milliseconds after the drivers foot comes off the brake pedal).
 
ORIGINAL: spyderman

I don't suppose left-foot braking helps, does it? Even if you've got a little accelerator with the right foot?
I've not tried this so I'll give it a go to see what happens.
 
ORIGINAL: J

Very useful to hear how PDK is performing - it doesn't sound much different from Tiptronic in terms of how the computer reacts to driver input - I haven't seen claims by Porsche that the logic is any different either. The best alternative I have come across is BMW who have a 5-6 point graduated driver controlled input ranging from sedentary to sport mode. In my experience this works quite well and allows for more continuous driver control rather than waiting for the computer to make up its mind.
What I find problematic (on Tiptronic) is that I often do not know where the computer is in the switch cycle and have been caught out a couple of times when I have switched down say just as the computer has and achieved 2 shifts rather than 1.
I would therefore like to see some sort of shift indicator as well as the in-between mode, if not more graduated, that you suggest.
I also think a heads-up display would be useful, although I have no active experience of using one, as I agree that looking at the dash to see the gear selection is not always desirable. 7 gears (PDK) is more of a problem than 5 (Tiptronic).
In my experience Porsche don't change features as such mid-cycle so it could be some time...
The neutral mode which you describe sounds far from helpful - have you had it confirmed that this is by design? What happens on hills?
Quite a few people have asked me how the PDK system compares to the tiptronic of my last car, an A4 cab. We also have another (6 speed) tiptronic in my wife's Audi Q7 used as our family car and to be honest there is no comparison as PDK and Tipronic are very different in their behaviour. Tips are far less intelligent and often change up a gear at the oddest of times (going down a hill for example when all you want to do is hold it in a mid gear (3rd/4th) to avoid picking up speed and braking heavily unneccesarly later. I don't think the points I noted are huge changes tbh as I'm pretty certain both can be solved with updated re-written software. Particularly the mapping for an intermediate drive mode.
 

ORIGINAL: Senna
You might be wondering if I regret buying a PDK equipped car?  Let me tell you, my next car will also be PDK equipped. Overall the car is a joy to use and I definitely wouldn't sacrifice the comfort and convenience (even with a few niggles) in exhange for a dead leg and dead brain in city driving. Don't get me wrong, I love manuals, been driving them for 30 years, unfortunately there is a hell of a lot more traffic around now than there was 30 years ago. Just check the average speed on you trip computers.

Interesting point.

I have always disliked the idea of these 'F1' style boxes and the few I have driven have not changed my mind, but I never really thought of the 'multimode' use of the car.

A couple of previous daily drivers with about 300hp+ were a pain in traffic as the clutch was designed to take the torque, not to be easy to use.

Question is then, if it was not a daily driver, but a weekend toy, would you have PDK ?
 
ORIGINAL: Senna


I've since learned to cheat by not having my foot fully depressed on the brake pedal. Instead I press the pedal very lightly whereby the car is almost on the verge of nudging forward but not quite. This is not as easy as it sound because the difference between the car going into neutral mode and being in gear is quite literally a few millimetres of brake pedal movement.

I have always been lead to believe unless one is moving off very quickly after stopping you should always select neutral or keep your foot on the brake pedal which automatically disengages the clutch on an AMV sportshift system thus preserving the life of the clutch plate(s)

A pal with lots of Ferrari 360/430 experience tells me the clutch life can be anything from 6k-30k miles depending on how sensible one is with the selecting neutral mode and not treating the F1 system like a conventional auto box [&o]

I assume the PDK set up to be no different in this area to all the others
 

ORIGINAL: Senna

ORIGINAL: spyderman

I don't suppose left-foot braking helps, does it? Even if you've got a little accelerator with the right foot?
I've not tried this so I'll give it a go to see what happens.

Instructors at Silverstone suggest left foot braking. Once you are used to it, it is far superior and reduces leg movement time to zero.
 

ORIGINAL: daro911

ORIGINAL: Senna



A pal with lots of Ferrari 360/430 experience tells me the clutch life can be anything from 6k-30k miles depending on how sensible one is with the selecting neutral mode and not treating the F1 system like a conventional auto box [&o]

I assume the PDK set up to be no different in this area to all the others  


I'm told that PDK is not like the Ferrari F1 system, where clutches rarely last longer than 15K and sometimes as short as 5K. Let's hope that PDK clutches last much longer. I was told that unlike a manual clutch which is rarely covered by warranty, PDK clutches are.
 
I think the PDK system is more like DSG (or S-Tronic as it's now known) and these have proven to be fairly robust.
 
ORIGINAL: Gary C


ORIGINAL: Senna
You might be wondering if I regret buying a PDK equipped car? Let me tell you, my next car will also be PDK equipped. Overall the car is a joy to use and I definitely wouldn't sacrifice the comfort and convenience (even with a few niggles) in exhange for a dead leg and dead brain in city driving. Don't get me wrong, I love manuals, been driving them for 30 years, unfortunately there is a hell of a lot more traffic around now than there was 30 years ago. Just check the average speed on you trip computers.

Interesting point.

I have always disliked the idea of these 'F1' style boxes and the few I have driven have not changed my mind, but I never really thought of the 'multimode' use of the car.

A couple of previous daily drivers with about 300hp+ were a pain in traffic as the clutch was designed to take the torque, not to be easy to use.

Question is then, if it was not a daily driver, but a weekend toy, would you have PDK ?
Hi Gary,
As a weekend only toy I probably wouldn't have a 911 at all.
Probably have one of these.
http://www.caterham.co.uk/assets/html/showroom/superlightr500.html

As an all rounder though (daily driver + weekend pleasure) the 911 is pretty much the best car in the world in my view.
 
ORIGINAL: Senna

ORIGINAL: J

Very useful to hear how PDK is performing - it doesn't sound much different from Tiptronic in terms of how the computer reacts to driver input - I haven't seen claims by Porsche that the logic is any different either. The best alternative I have come across is BMW who have a 5-6 point graduated driver controlled input ranging from sedentary to sport mode. In my experience this works quite well and allows for more continuous driver control rather than waiting for the computer to make up its mind.
What I find problematic (on Tiptronic) is that I often do not know where the computer is in the switch cycle and have been caught out a couple of times when I have switched down say just as the computer has and achieved 2 shifts rather than 1.
I would therefore like to see some sort of shift indicator as well as the in-between mode, if not more graduated, that you suggest.
I also think a heads-up display would be useful, although I have no active experience of using one, as I agree that looking at the dash to see the gear selection is not always desirable. 7 gears (PDK) is more of a problem than 5 (Tiptronic).
In my experience Porsche don't change features as such mid-cycle so it could be some time...
The neutral mode which you describe sounds far from helpful - have you had it confirmed that this is by design? What happens on hills?
Quite a few people have asked me how the PDK system compares to the tiptronic of my last car, an A4 cab. We also have another (6 speed) tiptronic in my wife's Audi Q7 used as our family car and to be honest there is no comparison as PDK and Tipronic are very different in their behaviour. Tips are far less intelligent and often change up a gear at the oddest of times (going down a hill for example when all you want to do is hold it in a mid gear (3rd/4th) to avoid picking up speed and braking heavily unneccesarly later. I don't think the points I noted are huge changes tbh as I'm pretty certain both can be solved with updated re-written software. Particularly the mapping for an intermediate drive mode.

I'd be cautious about comparing the Tiptronic system on a Porsche to an Audi which I would term a more conventional automatic, for example the downhill upshift is not something that happens ordinarily on Tip. but on more conventional systems it is more than likely as they tend to be biased towards comfort driving and lack a pure sport sense. In race mode I am not aware of any other "automatic" which comes anywhere close.
I'm not sure the Porsche Tiptronic system is any less intelligent than PDK (but would happily stand corrected) : aside from managing the gear change differently I can't imagine that Porsche have changed the logic significantly between the outgoing system (still available on the TT but maybe not for long) and PDK: it was developed as a replacement after all to a gearbox which even a Porsche race tester commented to me was preferred by some for push-on driving to a manual.
 
ORIGINAL: Gary C


ORIGINAL: Senna

Hi Gary,
As a weekend only toy I probably wouldn't have a 911 at all.
Probably have one of these.
http://www.caterham.co.uk/assets/html/showroom/superlightr500.html

As an all rounder though (daily driver + weekend pleasure) the 911 is pretty much the best car in the world in my view.


oh, good answer [:)]

But, if it was a 911, and it was a weekend toy [&:], then,,,,, would you have PDK ?
Yeah I'd still opt for PDK. Let's face it, its the future.
 
With regard to the question of being in the right gear prior to overtaking, the Tiptronic gearbox has a facility which I beleive only a few people are aware of.

If one 'Blips' the throttle, as opposed to 'Kicking Down',the gearbox automatically selects the optimum gear for overtaking and holds this gear until you are ready to overtake.

This feature may be on the PDK box as well.

My son has a PDK box on his 997 and I phoned to ask him if the facility was the same as his previous Tip box and he didn't know but is going to try it out on the way home tonight !!
 
This feature was demo'd to me when I drove the Cayman PDK last week, that is using the throttle to select the gear you want rather than use the paddles or selector lever.
 
ORIGINAL: Senna




One other gripe I have is something that I've never seen mentioned which in all honesty is quite weird as I'm pretty sure the following is the case for all PDK's.
Like many auto's (another cringy word) the car tends to keep nudging forward when D is engaged. The effect of the drivers foot on the brake pedal seems to almost put the gearbox/drive into neutral. Nothing wrong with this, in fact this is optimal for many reasons. Unfortunately, when wanting to set off from traffic lights or worse, join a main road, if your foot comes off the brake pedal and goes onto the accelerator pedal too quickly, the car just revs until THUD the gear engages. Apart from frightening you to death that you broke the car, or people behind you start hooting because 2 seconds have passed since the lights went green, there is also the fact that the oncoming car is almost on top of you before you actually get any drive into the pedal.

I've since learned to cheat by not having my foot fully depressed on the brake pedal. Instead I press the pedal very lightly whereby the car is almost on the verge of nudging forward but not quite. This is not as easy as it sound because the difference between the car going into neutral mode and being in gear is quite literally a few millimetres of brake pedal movement. The system is very clever, I've tried holding the car at traffic lights with the handbrake and this sends it to neutral too. Porsche should really be looking to cut this delay time by some way as as the end result is that it's really disconcerting and on some occasions actaully quite dangerous!
Hmmm.interesting, doesn't sound like the way mine behaves! (Edit, over 5300 miles) Holding it on the footbrake or handbrake doesn't put it into "neutral" and will always creep on the level if the brake is released, however long it's held. Certainly haven't had any "thuds" and only smooth quick pull aways. Like the manual says I only leave it in gear if stopped briefly and tend to hold it with the left foot anyway. I wonder if there is some small set up issue with your car because I've never been sat at lights for a couple of seconds waiting for something to happen? Mind you, down here in sleepyland if the one at the head of the queue pulls away within 2 secs it would be a record!

As I've said elsewhere I tend to drive it mostly on the buttons to get the changes when I want them but, then again, most of my driving is out of town.

The earlier question regarding hillstarts- when the brake is released on a hill the "Drive off Assistant" (love it!) holds it on the slope during the brief transition from brake to accelerator.
And Gary, yes I would have it as a weekend toy.
 
ORIGINAL: tscaptain

Hmmm.interesting, doesn't sound like the way mine behaves! (Edit, over 5300 miles) Holding it on the footbrake or handbrake doesn't put it into "neutral" and will always creep on the level if the brake is released, however long it's held. Certainly haven't had any "thuds" and only smooth quick pull aways. Like the manual says I only leave it in gear if stopped briefly and tend to hold it with the left foot anyway. I wonder if there is some small set up issue with your car because I've never been sat at lights for a couple of seconds waiting for something to happen? Mind you, down here in sleepyland if the one at the head of the queue pulls away within 2 secs it would be a record! As I've said elsewhere I tend to drive it mostly on the buttons to get the changes when I want them but, then again, most of my driving is out of town.
Have to say I found similar experiences when test driving a couple more PDK 911's before I purchased my car. In that I am pretty certain the car goes into (for want of a better word) some kind of 'neutral' mode whereby the car tends to disengage it's 'creep' power when the brake is applied at rest. This can be felt via the brake pedal and heard via the engine tone. When taking my foot off the brake (doesn't matter which foot) I definitely notice a lag/gap before the car re-engages and starts creeping again. The lag can and often is well caught out because (and I've not timed this) but my guesstimate is that it's anything from around half a second to almost a full second which is way too slow because I don't think it takes more than 1/10th or a couple of 10ths of a second to go from brake pedal to accelerator hence catching out the system almost all the time.


ORIGINAL: tscaptain
The earlier question regarding hillstarts- when the brake is released on a hill the "Drive off Assistant" (love it!) holds it on the slope during the brief transition from brake to accelerator.
It's a shame we don't have a similar system for reverse. Parked in a space on a very steep hill the other day in the Muswell Hill area of North London and I have to say reversing into the space was not as clear cut as I would have liked. The hill was so steep that creeping in reverse was non existant, neither did creep power hold the car staionary (understandable on very steep inclines). I had to use a combination of the hand brake and accelerator and it wasn't pretty given the above problems of gear disengagement when breaking.

 

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