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Piston & Rod upgrade or not?

blade7 said:
I was referring to the crankshaft.

Same characteristics, Any loss of (stored) Inertia from spinning parts that are reduced in weight are

Better for acceleration, and not so good up steep hills and nose to tail in London traffic ! [:)]

It is also dependent on how much weight is being moved from a standstill when looking at the weight of the components

that are storing Inertia.

So lightweight parts on a heavy 952 / S2 will suffer more than a lighter 2.5 N/A,

Hence why on light machines like Motorcycles they either have a very light one or none at all because the mass the engine has to move is not heavy and the crankshaft motions are enough as it acts like a flywheel moving the piston(s)

In a Road car a heavier Crank & Flywheel has more energy waiting to be released when you take your foot off the clutch and match the RPM accordingly to pull away or do a drag start etc.. But the downside is the weight also takes away torque from the

engine to propel the vehicle along, which if the Crank and / or flywheel is lighter the car will need more RPM to pull away

but it will spin up faster.

If a stock car takes 5 seconds to reach 5000rpm from a standstill, a lighter crank and fly version will only take 3 seconds to reach the same rpm and hence it will be producing more power at 5 seconds than the stock car.

From Point A to B , or from the Chip shop to the Roundabout! It's faster!

As ever it's all dependent on what you want and use you car for?

If it's a Sunday cruise ship, don't touch it or contemplate modifying it all at, leave it stock.

If it's a dedicated trackday car or a Road Racer like mine, you want Speed as quick as possible.

If you try and combine the three (Fast Road / Sunday Cruise / Trackday) compromises will occur if you modify, or don't modify.

R

 
I wish i'd paid more attention in Physics class at school...in fact i wish i could remember school but thats a subject for another day!

So theres no real science behind the amount of weight I've removed beyond what I think is 'about' right for what i want to use the car for. A heady mix of Euro road trips & trackdays.

The reduction in mass of 20% [actually 22% i think] should i hope just give it that little extra peppiness whereas if i'd gone nearer 40-50% i think i'd be losing that inertia and drivability that makes these cars so great on road and track??

Eitherway, engine in before chrimbo and then dyno early jan so we'll see what effect the mods so far have made and I'll report back as and when...not sure i mentioned but I took advice from earlier in this thread and bought a crank scraper too.

Thanks all

 
slickv8 said:
I wish i'd paid more attention in Physics class at school...in fact i wish i could remember school but thats a subject for another day!

So theres no real science behind the amount of weight I've removed beyond what I think is 'about' right for what i want to use the car for. A heady mix of Euro road trips & trackdays.

The reduction in mass of 20% [actually 22% i think] should i hope just give it that little extra peppiness whereas if i'd gone nearer 40-50% i think i'd be losing that inertia and drivability that makes these cars so great on road and track??

Eitherway, engine in before chrimbo and then dyno early jan so we'll see what effect the mods so far have made and I'll report back as and when...not sure i mentioned but I took advice from earlier in this thread and bought a crank scraper too.

Thanks all

Ok have you rebuilt this Engine with the original pistons and rods? and added a different Wastegate, Injectors / pump and Turbo, or ?

What's the difference in size between the turbo your fitting and the 2 standard ones 220 /250 ?

R

 
slickv8 said:
Eitherway, engine in before chrimbo and then dyno early jan so we'll see what effect the mods so far have made and I'll report back as and when...not sure i mentioned but I took advice from earlier in this thread and bought a crank scraper too.

Thanks all
Hi Nick

not sure which part of the country that you've located but if you're local (North London) and haven't bought your 'head gasket' yet I have two going spare here. If you don't need a custom sized gasket you are welcome to one of these FOC, they are brand new 'Victor Reinz' gaskets left over from the complete sets that I bought for my car, I need a custom gasket for my car so these will never be used.

regards

Pete

 
Pete...Thanks for the offer but I've already got a new wide fire gasket fitted. Really kind of you to offer though.

R.. I've done quite a few 'bolt on mods'

(Engine wise) in no particular order;

3" custom ss exhaust with ceramic coated headers

3bar regulator

New jmg race fuel pump

New jmg DPW

Newly rebuilt K27 turbo

manual boost control

New vxr injectors (ask chip wizards not me!)

lindsey racing steam vent kit

skimmed head, new valves/guide seals

(Just) lightened flywheel

crank scrapper

chip wizards about to dyno tune

ive also cut an air extraction vent into the bonnet above the intercooler and two heat extraction vents at the top (windscreen end) of the bonnet.

the car came with K&N filter but I'm tempted to try and fabricate/buy some sort of custom induction pipe set up. I want to move the filter behind n/s headlight. I've removed the pop ups and fitted twin street fighter h/lamps each side (dont knock it, it's a work in progress!) and had first go at heat forming acrylic h/light covers.

in honesty I absolutely love playing about and just trying different ideas....I have my idea of what I want to end up with but it's a bit of a moving feast.

 
...sorry should add that yes I've left rods and pistons stock. I'd love to upgrade but need to balance that against two little dependants

 
Np Nick, always willing to help where I can, regarding the air filter setup, you'll find better air if you take it from outside the engine bay where it's much cooler. For my car I have a 3" pipe that goes through the original air filter feed hole in the wing to a large K&N cone filter fitted inside the underwing shielding, you'll know where i mean. On my old setup, I used to have a viper ram air system that had a bonded sponge filter inside, I had issues later where I had lost some power and my intake temp had risen from 13 to over 40. I didn't really find the problem until the last rebuild where I discovered that I no longer had the bonded sponge filter in the ram system, it had at some point been sucked in due to the high induction power that my engine has and been destroyed causing the turbo shaft to fail and the intercooler to become blocked, so much so that when it went to Tom's (Augment) for upgrading it was beyond repair and a new substitute had to be sourced. For this reason, I will never use a filter based on a sponge filament again. i just won't take the risk with the current engine setup, she's a bit of a beast.

Please say hi to Wayne (chip wizards' there is no other that I'd trust on these cars no matter what stage of tune they are at) for me and if you don't mind what is the current dyno setup costs, my last tune was £500 which was nearly a decade ago.. yes i still haven't had my car set for max power by Wayne, she's still very much in 'running in mode'....:)

Pete

 
slickv8 said:
...sorry should add that yes I've left rods and pistons stock. I'd love to upgrade but need to balance that against two little dependants
good move, Porsche did a fine job on the design of these engines, they don't need after market rods unless and have the later cast rods and are going for serious power. Good move on the crank scraper too, they make a big difference, I was only reading a comment the other day where a guy compared his road car to his race car, both the same model, where he stated that performance since fitting the crank scraper to his road car was now the same as his race car? (300 kilo's lighter) purely due to the crank scraper, a bold statement that I find hard to believe but it shows just how much effect these simple devices have on engines or more importantly on the feel of the car to it's driver.

Pete

 
slickv8 said:
Pete...Thanks for the offer but I've already got a new wide fire gasket fitted. Really kind of you to offer though.

R.. I've done quite a few 'bolt on mods'

(Engine wise) in no particular order;

3" custom ss exhaust with ceramic coated headers

3bar regulator

New jmg race fuel pump

New jmg DPW

Newly rebuilt K27 turbo

manual boost control

New vxr injectors (ask chip wizards not me!)

lindsey racing steam vent kit

skimmed head, new valves/guide seals

(Just) lightened flywheel

crank scrapper

chip wizards about to dyno tune

ive also cut an air extraction vent into the bonnet above the intercooler and two heat extraction vents at the top (windscreen end) of the bonnet.

the car came with K&N filter but I'm tempted to try and fabricate/buy some sort of custom induction pipe set up. I want to move the filter behind n/s headlight. I've removed the pop ups and fitted twin street fighter h/lamps each side (dont knock it, it's a work in progress!) and had first go at heat forming acrylic h/light covers.

in honesty I absolutely love playing about and just trying different ideas....I have my idea of what I want to end up with but it's a bit of a moving feast.

Ok so more boost pressure & control / fuel /air and exhaust volume, has the head Skim changed the CR much ?

I was looking to have the Filter behind the badge panel but at the time if was too much of a faff, so we opted for

a cone behind the offside headlight space (Deutsch Nine GTS Style) boxes in with a Zircotec heat product.

wheels-66731585-Medium.jpg


Cold Air comes in the right hand Vent (924 Turbo) Fibre panel to feed the intake & the wing hole

wheels-336-1024x681.jpg


What shocks / suspension your running?

R

 
Interesting thread.

Things I would pick up on from my experience.

320 BHP at about 5500 rpm and 385 Ft/Lbs of torque at 4000rpm is quite easy to get from a 944 Turbo (250) car by using just a dual port wastegate, inteligent chipset (with FPR) and a good manual boost controller setup alone with the right parts (just those three items) and a good engine. We have been churning those out for about two decades without a single rod failure and more than half of those would be on cars with the cast rods, rather than the forged rods as standard.

The only problem around that point is that the standard fuel pump and injectors will be getting close to maximum capacity.

Around 340 bhp the standard airflow meter becomes a choke point.

With a manual boost controller, boost will begin to bleed off at about 5500 rpm to the redline, causing a lower bhp at maximum rpm, however an electronic boost controller at that point will hold that 320 bhp all the way to the redline usually and may see maximum torque happening a little earlier.

We have had a few cars at 395 to 400 fr lbs of torque, some peaking as low as 3500 rpm, with 400 to 420 bhp with some additional tuning items to break the limits of the airflow meter, exhaust, turbo discharge and intercooler (without going mad) on original engine internals again without a failure, running on a standard head gasket and pistons.

One car had 150,000 miles on it with 398 ft/lbs of torque, 417 BHP... The customer wanted a 2.8 engine, so had us tune the standard high mileage 2.5 engine and decided when it blew, he would have it rebuilt as a 2.8 and transfer the tuning parts across... We told him it would probably be fine, and 20,000 miles later of him abusing it, trying to blow it up, it was still fine when eventually he had a lorry hit the car!

When we rebuild a 2.5, we try to get hold of forged rods if the original engine does not have them, if not we usually guide the customer towards a particular brand of forged rods, but to be honest, unless the customer is shooting for over 350 bhp and 400 ft/lbs, I would expect the cast items to still be ok.

For the 2.8, 3.0 and 3.2 engine builds, we use forged aftermarket rods, partly for weight reduction, partly for insurance against a potential failure as I do not want a customer who is potentially spending £20k on an engine to be our test dummy for how far standard rods will go.

The biggest cause of engine failures (apart from number 2 big end failures) are typically over skimmed heads (which crack bores) where a standard compression ratio is expected during tuning, or detonation and piston damage (usually warning signs of plug issues) on number 4 cylinder which is usually fuel starvation.

There are a number of things that can be done to stop the number 2 bearing failure during an engine build.

One thing we do not tend to do is lighten flywheels and cranks, except for race engines (where those mods are not outlawed) as Blade7 mentioned, Harmonics are a key problem, especially with 104 and bigger pistons and 3.0 cranks, which is the key reason why Porsche used the balance shafts even in a standard engine, which is often misunderstood as a vibration issue, but is more a harmonic issue with vibration amplification at certain rpms.

There are ways around the harmonic problem with a particular hybrid engine component set.

With the standard format of intercooling, the 924 turbo badge panel is a bad idea, the original venturi is designed to slow down the air by the time it hits the intercooler, which is why it has the small inlet that then expands out from about an inch to being 5 inches tall at the intercooler, with increased airspeed the boundary layer around the fins of the intercooler causes reduced airflow and increased turbulance, we found better ways of enhancing the intercooler. There is potentially benefits to the 924 turbo badge pannel if using a taller intercooler and similar airflow management to allow the increased airflow to slow down from the road speed to a speed that works with that core.

Back to rods, I have seen standard rods fail on a couple of engines in the community, but usually where the person has been having tuning issues.. One such member of this forum had a rod failure on his way home from spending a day on a dyno trying to extract some power from his car, but found he was hitting a wall at around 360 bhp and was not hitting the torque levels he wanted, but as an observer I could see what he was missing and why his rods failed on his way home, which was all due to him spending a day trying to get a bad engine management package working on his car, which stressed the hell out of his engine after several hours on a rolling road as well as months before being spent trying to get an even worse package working!.

Many different ideas bouncing around on this post, so I thought I would just add all of the above as my experience with the different ideas, with about 28 years under my belt with 944 turbos as a pet love, I have tried just about every avenue to death, have found what works and what does not.

Having said that, I have had a massive amount of fun along the way, even on the lows of watching an engine or ten eat themselves on the engine dyno, so I would never poo poo a member of the community trying out their own ideas, everyone wants something different from their project, and we even fit expensive rods to big engine builds for a warm fuzzy feeling more than "knowing" they are needed... Likewise, I use custom pistons on these builds, even though people like barry hart had some success using machined down S2 pistons in a 3.0 engine, and in the states some are using some crazy chevy pistons, I use the custom made ones for insurance and a warm fuzzy feeling that we have done all we can to make the thing bullet proof.

Over the years we have built so many projects for customers, which it became apparent was not compatible with the business.. I might start a new thread on that, as there are some things that need to be said.. But from now on we only deal in what we know works as a package, which can give a customer anything from a 10 bhp increase to taking their car to a true 400/400 (torque/BHP) car or more.. Other than that, the experimental projects will be my own cars... So I continue to tweak, I continue to advise and I continue to tune, but in house I no longer let customers mix products (such as an LR turbo, a Pilgrims Choice ECU and an intercooler from a chieftain tank onto one of our 2.8 engines)... The reason I mention this is that with projects, every vendor has their own products designed often to work with their own products.. Things like our products will work with other peoples kit, but often the outcomes can be less predictable.. So enjoy your projects, but just be careful of how you mix products, unfortunately it isnt like lego, things might plug together, but the outcomes can be unpredictable and if you find a vendor you trust the knowledge of, if he says something, trust it.. Or find someone you do trust..

But as I said... Half the fun is playing about and coming up with your own ideas and trying them.. which I would never rob from anyone.

 
JON MITCHELL One thing we do not tend to do is lighten flywheels and cranks, except for race engines (where those mods are not outlawed) as Blade7 mentioned, Harmonics are a key problem, especially with 104 and bigger pistons and 3.0 cranks, which is the key reason why Porsche used the balance shafts even in a standard engine, which is often misunderstood as a vibration issue, but is more a harmonic issue with vibration amplification at certain rpms.

Good write up Jon, it's always interesting to read other tuners opinions etc...

You mention above harmonics are a problem with 104 bore engines, I think mine after a LR hone was close

to 105 and uses Wossner Pistons, but it's not on the 3.0S2 long stroke crank but a 951 2.5 version hence 2707cc.

The crank is 3kg less and the Fly 4.5kg less, and it's runs very well and so smooth.

From the cockpit there are no vibrations felt at all at any RPM, The crank and Fly were balanced as were the pistons & Rods etc..Wayne Schofield also spent 6 + hours mapping the car at ninemeister.

What exactly is the potential harmonic issues here? is it not something that can be felt, but will just fail at some point, or after a certain amount of mileage ?

Would you say the engine's very under stressed with Normal aspiration and 205bhp and could easily be changed to turbocharged with 50% more power and with all the same internals?

R

 
The first time I became fully aware of the harmonic issues in these engines was during meetings with Capricorn (then Dover Group and Perfectbore) where we modeled and simulated the 100 and 104mm engines with the view of building 108mm bore engines for the 944 turbos.

With this we found that the reason Porsche had used such a heavy crankshaft was not just to strength but to act as a big harmonic dampener to move the resonant frequencies of the reciprocating mass beyond the rev range of the engine, in models where the crankshaft was lightened, those harmonic frequencies decreased causing the block to flex, which is why on the 3.2 engines we ended up using interlocking wet liners and brass alloy rings instead of a head gasket to make the engine as close to a closed deck engine as possible.

Decreases in crank/flywheel weight, and any increase in rod and piston weight resulted in the resonant harmonic frequencies becoming lower and towards the used rev range of the engine, which is not something that would probably be felt inside the cockpit, but something absorbed by the engine mounts and meanwhile causing issues for the engine.

Apart from the head to block join fretting due to movement, concerns were that that high frequency vibration and potential flex in the block could have knock on effects beyond the typical cracking oil pickup tubes, but also for the oil pump (as it straddled the block and girdle), rigidity of the main bearings (altering clearances) but beyond that other potential issues of oil and fuel cavitation which makes them more difficult to manage.

One of the problems was that I wanted the engines to be as reliable as a standard 2.5 turbo would be, which was making a rod for my own back, whereas in todays reality a modified 944 turbo is unlikely to be cranking up high mileages as they did back then... I wanted the engines to still be great in 100,000 miles or double that, even with the performance.

In reality, if I was happy with the potential of an engine not lasting that long, I probably would not have been so worried about it, but the people who I were meeting with design engine blocks for the likes of F1 teams at one end of the scale (where they accept a short lifespan) and AMG at the other end who expect the engine to last 150,000 miles and my application being more road based, their advice was based more at the AMG end of the spectrum than the F1 end.

I doubt any of the 3.2's have covered 20,000 miles in the last 10 years, maybe even half that, so I was probably being overly cautious.. However, it is something that people need to make their own choice about with their eyes wide open, which is the only reason I mentioned it as a potential issue.

 
Interesting that Porsche fitted a crank damper on the S2 and used a DMF on the 968, so the harmonics were still a factor on those engines. I'd be interested if the harmonic issue was over a short rev range say 2- 4k ?

 
Indi9xx said:
The first time I became fully aware of the harmonic issues in these engines was during meetings with Capricorn (then Dover Group and Perfectbore) where we modeled and simulated the 100 and 104mm engines with the view of building 108mm bore engines for the 944 turbos.

With this we found that the reason Porsche had used such a heavy crankshaft was not just to strength but to act as a big harmonic dampener to move the resonant frequencies of the reciprocating mass beyond the rev range of the engine, in models where the crankshaft was lightened, those harmonic frequencies decreased causing the block to flex, which is why on the 3.2 engines we ended up using interlocking wet liners and brass alloy rings instead of a head gasket to make the engine as close to a closed deck engine as possible.

Decreases in crank/flywheel weight, and any increase in rod and piston weight resulted in the resonant harmonic frequencies becoming lower and towards the used rev range of the engine, which is not something that would probably be felt inside the cockpit, but something absorbed by the engine mounts and meanwhile causing issues for the engine.

Apart from the head to block join fretting due to movement, concerns were that that high frequency vibration and potential flex in the block could have knock on effects beyond the typical cracking oil pickup tubes, but also for the oil pump (as it straddled the block and girdle), rigidity of the main bearings (altering clearances) but beyond that other potential issues of oil and fuel cavitation which makes them more difficult to manage.

One of the problems was that I wanted the engines to be as reliable as a standard 2.5 turbo would be, which was making a rod for my own back, whereas in todays reality a modified 944 turbo is unlikely to be cranking up high mileages as they did back then... I wanted the engines to still be great in 100,000 miles or double that, even with the performance.

In reality, if I was happy with the potential of an engine not lasting that long, I probably would not have been so worried about it, but the people who I were meeting with design engine blocks for the likes of F1 teams at one end of the scale (where they accept a short lifespan) and AMG at the other end who expect the engine to last 150,000 miles and my application being more road based, their advice was based more at the AMG end of the spectrum than the F1 end.

I doubt any of the 3.2's have covered 20,000 miles in the last 10 years, maybe even half that, so I was probably being overly cautious.. However, it is something that people need to make their own choice about with their eyes wide open, which is the only reason I mentioned it as a potential issue.

Ok thanks, I would return to my 2 Engine tuners & builders (USA & UK) should any issues ever occur, but my capacity is 2707cc not 3.2, or is it turbocharged but a Normally aspirated 8 valve.

You've mentioned:

Jon Mitchell Decreases in crank/flywheel weight, and any increase in rod and piston weight resulted in the resonant harmonic frequencies becoming lower and towards the used rev range of the engine,

My engine does have a lighter crank and flywheel, but the rods and Pistons are not increased but lighter than the original standard ones, does this still mean the frequencies are in the rev range ? and what range is this?

I don't hold any gear no more than 5700rpm (even on a track) as the peak torque is 4500rpm and peak bhp 5700rpm, the torque figure at 3500rpm is exactly the same at 5700rpm.

Do these frequencies / Vibrations happen below 5800rpm?

Also will 250kg less vehicle weight help the engine's job or not ? (Less load to pull)

R

www.924srr27l.co.uk

http://924srr27l.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/TEch-Spec-924srr27L-.pdf

 
blade7 said:
Interesting that Porsche fitted a crank damper on the S2 and used a DMF on the 968, so the harmonics were still a factor on those engines. I'd be interested if the harmonic issue was over a short rev range say 2- 4k ?

Yes good point, although these are both the 3.0 longer throw (Stroke) Crank, and both bigger bore & twin cam with peakier higher rpm power bands.

The 968 has variable valve timing too.

I wonder if the 2.5 and 2.7 are less an issue than the big stroke and bore (3.2 Litre) Big 4 cylinder as Jon mention's ?

R

 
Dual mass flywheels are a bit of a conspiracy in my conspiracy theorist mind.. :)

They were originally introduced with the fact that it made clutch kits cheaper and so saving the motorist (no springs in the friction plate), but typically a dual mass flywheel will last for about 1.5 clutches, so if it does not need replacing when the first clutch is done, it will fail before the next one!

They were also sold that they would decrease shocks to the transmission, but I have not seen any evidence that this is true..

It does add about £600 or more to the cost of a clutch change and the clutches never seemed to become cheaper because of them.

With the harmonics issue, as the stroke increases the issue increases, so yes the 2.5 and 2.7 engines have less of an issue, but the problem also increases as changes are made to the weight in any one component from the flywheel, crank, rods and piston, up or down in weight.

Being a harmonic issue, the problem does not have just one rpm point, but several at different rpm increments, but as those rpm increases cause echos, those echos overlap at other rpm points, which if that happens at the same point as one of the first order harmonics, you get a very narrow rpm band problem with high amplitude, which often will not be felt by the driver, but can cause issues with components in the engine.

I would not worry too much about it, just if you do play with weights within the engine, look out for it being an issue (such as if your oil pickup cracks, think of it as a smoking gun, not just a random occurrence.

 
Sorry I missed this... Same balance shafts for all 85 to 88 models (944 8v, 944S 16v and 944 Turbo), but in 89 to 91 there were two balance shafts, one for the 2.7 and one for the 3.0 and 2.5 Turbo.

Which in itself is quite interesting.

 

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