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Porsche 944 Prices - The Future....

Anyway, I digress. In short, not especially surprised about values just the speed (as very roughly, in the case of S2s at least, solid examples would appear to have roughly doubled in value in less than a year) of it and where are all those cars? Was there someone stock piling them secretly somewhere during the summer of 2014?
I think it's just a "perfect storm", where rising classic car prices have floated all older cars up with them, and lesser-appreciated models are seen as a route in to Porsche ownership. Air-cooled 911 prices have doubled as well, and it'll happen to the more modern cars when they become rarer. Which is the other part of that perfect storm: rarity. A few years ago you'd have scrapped a Lux if it needed some bodywork and the HG failed. When they were going for a grand, it was hard to justify spending £2K on a service, so they were really reduced to scrap unless you were the rare person who took one on to restore for love. Remember that metallic green one? The amount of work the guy put in, for a car that was never going to be worth more than £1500 all-done! We also saw some pretty hopeless people buying a cheap 944 with no idea what they were getting in to, and being badly bitten. Now, there are less cars around, more are in the hands of enthusiasts who are keeping them long-term, but there is a new market for "collectible" 944s from, errrr, collectors [&:]. That new market only wants low miles, interesting models (turbo S, turbo cab etc.), but will pay over the top for the right car as there aren't many options out there. John's turbo cab was a case of me getting a call, putting them in touch that day, and the car picked up within a couple of days. The buyer knew every turbo cab on the market, and wasn't hanging around arguing over a few £k here or there. For the rest of us, with average cars, it's going to increase the number that get restored, and the quality of the work we do to them. You might patch up an S2 that's worth £3K, but when you see them hitting £10K more will be considering a proper respray, for instance.
 
ORIGINAL: Hallsy I wonder if anyone on here has looked at either of the two 1986 red Turbo'son ebay, both circa 100k and both £6500 - yet they have been on for a while and not sold. With similar, tidy examples selling for around £15k (albeit 250bhp Turbo's), surely that leaves a lot of money in the kitty to tidy them up - even if they do need new sills and a respray. Maybe the 1986 models aren't quite as desirable to the masses yet.
Hey Hallsy, I enquired about one of those when i was looking at the end of last year, ended up buying on condition and bought my Red S2 which had full service history and all belts tensioners had been done when needed, the cam chain etc had been done before 100K as recommended by Ray Northway's and included paperwork inches thick. I wanted a turbo but didn't want to buy a car without basic history of maintenance. I'm now very happy with my S2 and intend to keep it for ever (how many times have we heard that) [:)] J
 
ORIGINAL: pauljmcnulty
Anyway, I digress. In short, not especially surprised about values just the speed (as very roughly, in the case of S2s at least, solid examples would appear to have roughly doubled in value in less than a year) of it and where are all those cars? Was there someone stock piling them secretly somewhere during the summer of 2014?
I think it's just a "perfect storm", where rising classic car prices have floated all older cars up with them, and lesser-appreciated models are seen as a route in to Porsche ownership. Air-cooled 911 prices have doubled as well, and it'll happen to the more modern cars when they become rarer.
Agreed - I think it started with that Glacier blue Turbo that Paul Stephens (and possible another dealer before or after?) had which was circa £20k iirc? Closely followed by another, low mileage, very tidy 2.7. Then dealers started to pitch the average Turbo at around £10k, but many were still selling on the private market for £5-7k, but just recently a few dealers & private sellers have pitched well presented Turbo's at circa £15k - a few have sold, and now that has dragged potential values of the rest of the 944's up. It happened very quickly, I agree, but it was driven by those selling to have faith & confidence that what they were selling and price accordingly. I have watched the prices of 944's on/off for years, and early last year I could see it coming. I had my 944S at the time, which I had vowed to keep for many years - but the itch for a Turbo was too much. I said to my other half that I was concerned that if I left it too long, a good Turbo would be out of reach so decided to persue any reasonably priced Turbo at that point - and by the end of the summer I had one. Not a minter that will make top dollar, but a good base with lots of recent history, just needing some cosmetic tidying. I'm glad I bought it when I did, as I might not have been able to justify it at 2015 prices, lol!!
 
Where have all the 944's gone? Well, about two to four years ago there was the first sweep of foriegn buyers, they were buying up all the left hand drive Porsche models because the Euro was strong against the pound, which combined with a renewed interest in retro Porsche cars on the continent (mainly Germany and France) meant that a left hand drive Porsche in the UK was for a short while worth more than a right hand drive one.. To those that realised this was going on, a left hand drive Porsche in the UK went up in value by up to 50%.. I noticed this and sold a surplus bog standard 968 for £12k when right hand drives were selling for £6k to £8k about 3 years ago... I was certainly happy with that one, especially when the new owner in France asked if I would deliver it to Stansted airport where his plane was landing and do some future proofing of the car (Wheel bearings, left hand drive headlights and a head gasket and new cams) for an extra couple of £k as he had no Porsche specialists anywhere near him in France. So that was the end of left hand drive Porsche in the UK... Now the pound is a bit stronger that has died off a bit, but there was a frantic rush from continental enthusiasts buying here, not for a bargain, but more for the right car, as few existed over there following years of the continentals not liking "young classics" and seeing them as bangers. Then a couple of years ago I started seeing that maybe one in five pre 1989 cars customers had sold were going off to Australia, it took me a while to realise that we were in a recession yet the Australians were not, their dollar was and is strong versus the pound, they had rules that people could import a pre 89 car with no import duty to pay and in the 80's they did not have the yuppy culture we had over here of people buying Porsche cars, So with a 911 worth maybe $75,000AU it made perfect sense for them to buy one over here and spend about £8k having it containered and shipped over there... And as long as the maths work out, they will keep doing this.. So yet more Porsche cars left our shores and the Porsche cars on the market pool. The Australians did not just go mental for air cooled 911's though, also they were interested in rust free 944's, in particular I know of 5 Turbo S 944 and several 928's which went to Australia over the last couple of years. The odd thing is that the right hand market, other than the UK did not do as badly as us over the recession, prior to about 4 years ago I never used to perform pre purchase inspections for clients in Singapore, Hong Kong and Japan, but recently it is not unusual at all. Again this has seen Air cooled 911's, 944's and 928's vanishing off of our shores. Then there has been some other influencing effects on both values and cars vanishing from sale... During a recession, Gold shoots up in value as people see the stock market becomes unstable, banks offer next to no interest, pensions bomb and Gold seems like the only thing which is going up in value.. But at the end of the recession Gold levels out, leaving people not seeing their money rising in value, people begin to shift back to stocks and shares while others having had their fingers burnt in that market avoid the shares still.. This makes classic cars seem like a good place to Park some cash... You get to enjoy your investment rather than it being on a slip of paper.. but like Gold, people moving into it, causes the values to rise, which also makes them look like a great investment. However, many of you might remember the recession at the end of the 80's and the start of the 90's... House prices collapsed, gold went up in value and then classic cars, then durign the recovery house values shot up, people jumped on that band wagon, the classic car bubble burst, followed by interest rates being hiked up to stem inflation just before house prices collapsed again and people were in negative equity. So you might say, the classic car price increases might be a bubble which will pop.. But to be honest, I am not so sure.. as part of this bubble has been forced by supply and demand, not just investers, the cars leaving the UK will not come back here, they are gone.. no bubble popping will put them back into the market, so even if the investers ditch the classic cars they are unlikely to move into property, as the big deal with this recession was caused by property booms, which is firmly in the memory of the investers.. they will move into it, but much more cautiously than the past, over the next decade rather than the next couple of years... But add to that, the fact that the Bank of England remembers the damage done by raising interest rates and how it crippled the economy. So I am not shocked by the vanishing numbers of cars for sale.. I just wish I had the money and the balls to buy up all the cars I could and park them in a field over the last 4 years I have been telling people in forums that the 944 values will rise by good measure in the future... and I don't think they have stopped rising. Another thing which is taking cars off the market is that people used to buy them, as I said before, because they have £XK to spend and a 944 looked cool... But once the value and demand goes up and the supply goes down you end up with people owning them that actually want one, enthusiasts like most of you.. and that means that unless the price goes up high enough for people to think "I don't love it that much" or for people to release the cars through no choice of their own such as needing the money or passing away.
 
Many thanks, that all makes perfect sense. I am still struck by the speed of it but guess it does appear to have been a coming storm. It is, as I said, for me, at least largely academic but helpful nonetheless when thinking of refreshing the suspension this coming month for no there reason than it is just a bit 'tired'.
 
ORIGINAL: jamieda Hey Hallsy, I enquired about one of those when i was looking at the end of last year, ended up buying on condition and bought my Red S2 which had full service history and all belts tensioners had been done when needed, the cam chain etc had been done before 100K as recommended by Ray Northway's and included paperwork inches thick. I wanted a turbo but didn't want to buy a car without basic history of maintenance. I'm now very happy with my S2 and intend to keep it for ever (how many times have we heard that) [:)] J
Glad you found what you were looking for :) You're right, a sign of recent maintenance is a good thing with the 944 - and is what swayed me to the Turbo I ended up buying, very early history was scarce, but it had plenty showing recent work and had had many of the major 944 problems sorted. Did you view one of the Turbo's I mentioned then? As I say, maybe they are particuarly rough, or not telling the full story - but they look to be well priced, yet hanging around.
 
ORIGINAL: pauljmcnulty
ORIGINAL: Hallsy I wonder if anyone on here has looked at either of the two 1986 red Turbo'son ebay, both circa 100k and both £6500 - yet they have been on for a while and not sold. With similar, tidy examples selling for around £15k (albeit 250bhp Turbo's), surely that leaves a lot of money in the kitty to tidy them up - even if they do need new sills and a respray. Maybe the 1986 models aren't quite as desirable to the masses yet.
For only a little more you could have Frank's 1986 turbo, with the sills and paint already done! Admittingly it's a high miler, but for a useable turbo it's a steal.
I'm surprised his car hasn't sold yet - it looked like a nice example, but the initial advert I remember would have benefitted from better photos iirc.
 
Where's the ad? I've searched in for sale and the 944 forum and there doesn't appear to be any trace of it… Of course PCGB has just updated the web site. Presumably since we're using the same old forum software that part of the upgrade has run into issues, so maybe they've done a data tidy up trying to get things migrated.
ORIGINAL: Hallsy
ORIGINAL: pauljmcnulty
ORIGINAL: Hallsy I wonder if anyone on here has looked at either of the two 1986 red Turbo'son ebay, both circa 100k and both £6500 - yet they have been on for a while and not sold. With similar, tidy examples selling for around £15k (albeit 250bhp Turbo's), surely that leaves a lot of money in the kitty to tidy them up - even if they do need new sills and a respray. Maybe the 1986 models aren't quite as desirable to the masses yet.
For only a little more you could have Frank's 1986 turbo, with the sills and paint already done! Admittingly it's a high miler, but for a useable turbo it's a steal.
I'm surprised his car hasn't sold yet - it looked like a nice example, but the initial advert I remember would have benefitted from better photos iirc.
 
Here: http://www.tipec.net/_forums/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=18538&sid=f948c948c30eb8dfcc0913f186075874 But the pistonheads advert has expired. Maybe he has sold, but Paul implies otherwise.
 
Looks like some movement on cars in PistonHeads.. The Autograph 944 Turbo 250 with unique styling, which I think was at about £8k for a, erm, while, is now listed at £13k and their 220 turbo is now listed at £9595 which has also been on there for a while.. Maybe no one bought them before because it was too cheap? [;)] Also looks like one of the ThrottleShop cars has sold? I am sure there were two on there?
 
Where's the ad? I've searched in for sale and the 944 forum and there doesn't appear to be any trace of it… Of course PCGB has just updated the web site. Presumably since we're using the same old forum software that part of the upgrade has run into issues, so maybe they've done a data tidy up trying to get things migrated.
Half the problem is the half-an-ad! Frank's just started selling it again on Facebook, but he does need to do a proper ad, and put it in the proper places, if he wants to get the best price. I don't think I'm out of line saying that we're continuing this forum, with a new version imminent. Switching to a different platform had too many issues, and this one works well with the latest version adding a bit more to it. Edited to add: [link]https://www.porscheclubgb.com/forum/tm.asp?m=842439&mpage=1&key=&#842439[/link]
 
I certainly agree that perfect 944 turbos are worth the money. Cars like John's turbo cab (recently sold) are the kind of thing that every buyer dreams of seeing when they show up to view a car and they're certainly worth every penny. But, if those Autograph cars couldn't sell for ages at £8k then who on earth will pay £13k for it? It would cost £5k or more to undo the "enhancements".
ORIGINAL: Indi9xx Looks like some movement on cars in PistonHeads.. The Autograph 944 Turbo 250 with unique styling, which I think was at about £8k for a, erm, while, is now listed at £13k and their 220 turbo is now listed at £9595 which has also been on there for a while.. Maybe no one bought them before because it was too cheap? [;)] Also looks like one of the ThrottleShop cars has sold? I am sure there were two on there?
 
or maybe they've sold all the cars http://www.autographspecialistcars.co.uk/showroom doesn't list anything for sale...
 
Next stage of this trend will be when some-one "Singers" a 944.......[:)] The car will need to be a superb package of Design, detail, engineering and overall performance. (Very difficult for Porsche to deal with the situation of its past models being better engineered and closer to the Brands core competences than its present range, but it would be nice to see the 944 included in this important step.) It would raise the bar over the £50k region just a matter of time. George 944t
 
I don't know what all the fuss is about. With regard to the turbo model it is a 1980's Porsche 'Turbo'. The car is a Porsche, designed and built by 'Porsche'. So what if they sell for £20K plus? So they should. It is very nice to look at, it is well made and has some fantastic 'state of the art' (at the time) specifications. Much nicer to look at than a Ford RS2000 IMO and again, better made. Did you know that 1980's Renault 5 Turbo 1's are selling for £69,000? I hope the prices continue to rise, the car is worth it; but as with any model that is appreciating, there will be good and bad specimens for sale. It all comes down to wise buying on behalf of the person with the cash. That's my 2p's worth done :)
 
ORIGINAL: _ian or maybe they've sold all the cars http://www.autographspecialistcars.co.uk/showroom doesn't list anything for sale...
The Autograph cars have been for sale for years, they never seem to sell anything. Probably because they have all been modified to some degree or other and most people want originality for that money. I know looks are subjective but they look as though they've been 'chavved up'.
 
Agreed on the Autograph cars in every respect, they seem to have hung around for a very long time and the reason is really clear and takes us back to the comments about people spending £X on their car with modifications, only to then not be able to sell the car for even what a standard one is worth. Car modification is a personal thing, the guy at Autograph probably puts a lot of himself into his cars and he probably really enjoys doing it and thought he could make a business at it and everyone else would like them as much as he does. The other thing is, even if the average buyer was to see a modified car for sale, modified in exactly how he would like to modify one, he would probably still not want it, because part of the joy of a modified car can be the modification experience. Getting to know the car in standard form, researching modifications (including getting involved in here), feeling or seeing the difference the modifications make, standing back and feeling a sense of satisfaction that the car is becoming truely yours. Unfortunately, this means it is very rare for someone to be happy to buy a modified car. Not to mention that most modified cars are not finished correctly or built as a package, which makes them a bit loose around the edges. Modifying cars sends me nuts at times for this very reason, they don't get finished correctly because the customer does not want to pay for the polishing of the integration of parts, and this lack of polishing off the package of the car as a whole, makes them a bit of a monster at times. We have just completed a car for a customer where he loves his 924S and wanted to make it a great car.. So, in a few stages we have built his car to have a 968 Engine, which has been installed completely plug and play into the original loom (only the engine loom was modified to fit the 924S loom with a bit of cunning) which is so it could be converted back to standard without a trace. The fuel hose locations were retained, but with some custom adapters to get them in the right place but also looking right. The brakes were upgraded to 968 items all round but allowing the original cable driven speedo to still work and the suspension converted to our own remanufacture of GAZ coil overs.. The last stage was the engine install, which we performed running up to Christmas, but since Christmas, because he was off skiing and we had some quiet patches in the diary, we spent about 20 man hours a week for the last 3 weeks tweaking it, playing with the install, remaking some adapters with the benefit of hindsight as well as sorting out all kinds of niggles in the rest of the car. We did the polishing because we had some spare time, the guy is a good customer and it will make it a better car.. But if we had charged for this time, we would have made a loss on the work, a big loss... But that polishing is what is missing from many modified cars and one of the reasons that people steer clear of them, not because they have thought through their reasons, but you say modified and many people think "rough round the edges" The singer 911's are a different proposition in peoples psychology. If nothing else, because they charge so much, people instantly think "finished and polished package", which I am sure Singer are more than aware of, as all of their videos and marketing material makes a big deal about the detail they go to, which is not just to try and sell the cars on the basis of the detail, it is there to paint the picture that these are something set apart from modified cars. But also, a lot goes into a making a Singer because they really do go into detail. To make a Singer style packaged 944, properly, would cost every bit as much as making a Singer 911, for a company to break even they would probably need to charge somewhere in the region of £100,000 to break even and to sell any of the cars, they would need to be exclusive enough to not sell very many so owners could be elitist, but by the time you get into a £100k car, to be elitist the car needs to sell for £250k because people who pay £100k are not in the elite tax bracket, but the people who pay £250k on a car, could afford £500k on a car.. But I don't think anyone will pay that kind of money for a 944.. I know someone who has spent £48k on his 944 turbo, I know another who has spent £60k on his 968.. So who knows.. one day maybe. But someone who says he has spent £10k, but really has spent about £4k, and half of that was on maintenance, and there was still lots of maintenance needed, even though he had decided to spend £2k on whizz bang go faster bits against good judgement and advice, will not get the money back when he sells the car... Instead he will get £7k, for a car which if it was standard and not covered in stone chips that would cost £500 to rectify, would have sold for £10k due to the mileage, maybe £14k upwards if it was under or around the 100k mile mark... I also think that in my opinion, a standard car is easier to sell and as mentioned worth more, especially now in the current market. For the last two years I have been testing a whole host of new products we have been developing for the last 10 years for the 944 market, but 944 modification as a market place has fallen off a cliff in the last year or two.. We used to be fitting a dual port wastegate every couple of weeks between 6 and 10 years ago, now it is just a handful, so our MAF/Map kits, dash illumination kits, suspension kits, even though tested, are in limbo, probably not worth spending the time to market.. Because every day we are modifying Boxsters/Cayman/996/997/991 models, which is not surprising seeing as there are probably 250 944 turbos in use in the UK, the owners who want a modified one probably already have a modified one, and yet there are thousands of Boxsters and late 911s where the owners want them modified. A real shame, but a true sign of the times. One last thing... Ferrari 246 Dino, I always wanted one since the 1980's, lovely looking car, gutless as a cheap petrol strimmer, reliable as a 80's fiat, but even still, I always wanted one... Poor man's Ferrari.... I almost bought one in 1996 for £12,000 from a ferrari dealer when you could buy one needing restoration for £4k or a good one via a private sale for £8k... Ferrari purists would spit at you if you had changed the Dino badge for a Ferrari one, they all said "not a feal Ferrari" they all said "thats not a Ferrari, thats a Fiat, its not even made in the Ferrari factory" Does this sound a bit like a 944? Within 10 years of 1996 they were worth £80k... Now it seems £200k to £250k is more like it... Oddly enough, as prices increased, Ferrari purists and owners have learned to love them and will never be heard to say they are not a real Ferrari.. Odd that
 
After my initial post and reading all the interesting and knowledgeable comments I decided to call Jon Mitchell to have a chat. 20 minutes later and I have apologised to Jon for a few assumptions I made (more from hearsay than actually first hand experience) and ended up having a great discussion about Porsche cars in general and more specifically Porsche 944's [:)] I publicly thank Jon for his time and hopefully I will be in touch going forward as he has offered me some valuable assistance with a future purchase. [:D] p.s. It's good to see us talking up the prices of 944's and the future of these great cars is very bright [:)]
 

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