Porsche 944 Prices - The Future....

[MartinRS2K]

ORIGINAL: Jase1969 Excellent, an independent view Links to a website plus I own one or two?? And my first post! Aren't there rules against this?

I was about to say the same thing. Looked at the seller - Joslyn Specialist Cars It looks nice and I'm sure I've seen it for sale previously somewhere else?

 

[Hallsy]

ORIGINAL: MartinRS2K

ORIGINAL: Jase1969 Excellent, an independent view Links to a website plus I own one or two?? And my first post! Aren't there rules against this?

I was about to say the same thing. Looked at the seller - Joslyn Specialist Cars It looks nice and I'm sure I've seen it for sale previously somewhere else?

Yes - that red Turbo was on Tipec a few months back: http://forums.tipec.net/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=17490

 

[joslyn]

Ok, let's do this a different way so I am not accused of anything untoward as the purpose of the original post was not to drive traffic, sell cars or anything such like. Original purpose was simply to present what the data is showing if you look across prices since the middle of last year. same data below, taken from circa 900 data points so a couple of optimistic sellers have a limited effect.

 

[PAUL RUDDY]

Pricing stuff is always difficult, especially so in a rising market. I bought a MK2 RS2000 in 2006, I paid £7500 and nearly cried handing the money over, I was used to having the pick of them at £4k several years earlier, anyway as unforeseen retirement from work loomed a few months later I was bid £9500 and the car went, 12 months later that guy sold it for £15,000, I never saw it as a £15k car and I would never pay that for a MK2 Escort, but plenty will. I now look at Escorts for sale at £25k plus and think when and how did that happen, at some point someone had to be the first to put £15k, £18k, £20k as their asking price, the market accepted that value and moves on, at some point someone pushes it too far and it bursts or doesn't sell and that's the ceiling set, except for exceptionally rare cars and someone with deep pockets, I know a MK2 owner turning down a £55k cash offer. Another thing that aided Escort prices was continuous press coverage in the monthly mags, headlines of "Now's the time to buy" etc, this definitely helped as people didn't want to miss the boat, when the Porsche and Classic mags eventually pick up the 944 baton then prices will climb. Jon, it's so difficult to ask anyone a value based on words, I've valued cars for the Ford RSOC in the past, as a registrar for insurance purpose, we would not do it from photographs, all cars had to be presented with a recent HPi certificate as obviously colour change, damage history, etc etc can affect value greatly. There is no worse job for a registrar than standing in front of an owner and putting a price on their pride and joy, 90% take it well and if you are able to point out legitimate reasons as to how you back up your price they are fine, there are those whoever had bought unwisely and expect an inflated price, those were the difficult ones. cheers, Paul

 

[MartinRS2K]

ORIGINAL: joslyn Ok, let's do this a different way so I am not accused of anything untoward as the purpose of the original post was not to drive traffic, sell cars or anything such like. Original purpose was simply to present what the data is showing if you look across prices since the middle of last year. same data below, taken from circa 900 data points so a couple of optimistic sellers have a limited effect.

Is this data just from Patina as there has been 3 Porsche 944 Turbos's sold via eBay and Pistonheads that achieved in excess of £15k recently? I know you are looking at average prices which does drag the level down slightly but a wider range of selling sites will give a more accurate representation of the moving prices.

 

[joslyn]

The data is collected from many of the major car selling websites around the world (in the UK we cover all the sites you would expect). Works out about 200k records a month which we clean, dedupe, remove outliers etc to give a good indication of trends. Data above is for UK based 944s only. Purpose is not to value any one car as there will always be good and bad examples, rather to give purely data driven view of market movements as a whole. I just thought it would be of interest in the context of the thread!

 

[OLD_ian]

I think those numbers are looking at asking prices. They're also over a very short time span. Without more info about how the numbers were derived it not possible to say if theyre meaningful. Sales prices would be better, but obviously harder to get.

ORIGINAL: MartinRS2K

ORIGINAL: joslyn Ok, let's do this a different way so I am not accused of anything untoward as the purpose of the original post was not to drive traffic, sell cars or anything such like. Original purpose was simply to present what the data is showing if you look across prices since the middle of last year. same data below, taken from circa 900 data points so a couple of optimistic sellers have a limited effect.

Is this data just from Patina as there has been 3 Porsche 944 Turbos's sold via eBay and Pistonheads that achieved in excess of £15k recently? I know you are looking at average prices which does drag the level down slightly but a wider range of selling sites will give a more accurate representation of the moving prices.

 

[pauljmcnulty]

Thanks for that, Tim. Whilst advertised prices are never all that accurate, it's good to see an averaged-out trend in that way. A bit harsh on your original post as I didn't think it was unacceptable! The anti-spam rules are flexible enough to allow traders to post if it's offering advice, or something of interest, not just posting adverts repeatedly. Jon, back to your 2.7. [] I'd stick to my guns and say even the concourse, low-miles lux would be lucky to beat £10K. It's a small market for collector's cars, and they'd be looking for the more desirable turbos, or if a lux was essential then possibly a very early car, with the more retro look and feel? I still think that the later lux less desirable 944, despite that still being a very nice car, one I'd prefer to have, and to me the pick of the range. I'd still rank them (to a collector) turbo cup, turbo cab, silver rose, other turbo S, S2 cab, very early lux in the right colour combo, then you're more in to cars bought to use, not as investments or museum pieces. There's also the issue of why buy the car? Low mileage is nice, but if you use it 5000 miles a year it#ll soon be knocking on the 100K mark. If it's to lock up and keep as a low-miles car, it doesn't have to have had work done to it: who cares about brakes and exhausts, when the chances are they'll need changing again when the car's sold on in the next boom, maybe 10 years down the line? It seems to sit in none of the obvious categories where people would bite your hand off at a premium price? I feel a bit mixed in saying that, as it's mad to talk down a minty 944 with low miles, but all said and done it's only a lux. I guess a bit like valuing a nice Escort 1.6 Popular against an RS2000: whilst it's a perfectly nice classic car it's not an RS2000. Again, a late lux is my ideal 944 outside of a shooting brake, seriously, so I'm not being snobby. Personally I don't consider the 2.7 any different to the 2.5, nor the special editions which were really only slightly optioned-up ordinary cars. I think a solid, serviced, not silly low-miles but under the 100K psychological limit by a bit, car would be 5-8 grand trade?

 

[Indi9xx]

Sensible words Paul for sure. The 2.7 Lux certainly does not feel any more powerful than a 2.5 Lux.. If anything, a little like I am a sucker for the 86 Turbo's without the ABS, Big Brakes, M030 Suspension and LSD of the 88 Turbo S or UK Dealer SE specification/tickbox, the 85 and earlier 944 Lux has a certain apeal for me.. If I had a place in my collection and heart for a Lux as a forever car, it would be a Guards red 85 or earlier car with Fuchs wheels, very much like "HotBlack944"'s lux but a pre 85, and I think in the future, because for so long the square dash cars were less loved, I think in the future they may even be the rarer car. But, as you say, like the 1300L Escort, which may even be a rarer car than a RS2000, still isnt a RS2000, and the Lux in the collectors eyes still isnt a Turbo S. If this car was one of the two Turbo's of my four which may end up for sale this year (I threaten selling them every year), then I would not have a hard time pricing them at all. But this Lux is a different kettle of fish for me. As I said before, I bought it intending on using it in the winter when some of the cars I am more precious about stay away from salty roads. I really did expect to use it till it dropped in years to come.. But it was too good a car once the few problems it had were ironed out. Here it is at Winter and again I find myself in a Range Rover every day burning 15 miles to the gallon to and from work! lol

 

[Diver944]

That graph is really interesting Tim, I'd like to see another one covering the past few years if you have it. Don't worry about your first post it was absolutely fine and is I think a useful addition to the forum - welcome on board []

 

[Indi9xx]

I know some on here have posted the new prices for certain models over the years, but only one model and year at a time. Does the club have access to any archive information of how much the RRP of each 944 model was year by year? It would be really interesting, especially for this debate, to see what price difference there was between an 88 lux and a 88 turbo, as well as a turbo s But then again, it would be interesting to see the prices of the 911 and 928 prices from the same years, side by side. Is it something that maybe Porsche HQ in Reading might give you Paul? Or is it something someone here has already? I am a bit of a statistics freak like that though, love looking through that kind of info.

 

[Frenchy]

My 88 Turbo S M758 car was around 44k when new in 88,Poor Mans Porsche according to some !!! my first house was 34k around 1992 brand new, good sized 2 bed semi with gardens and garage.

 

[pauljmcnulty]

If this car was one of the two Turbo's of my four which may end up for sale this year (I threaten selling them every year), then I would not have a hard time pricing them at all. But this Lux is a different kettle of fish for me.

And I hope I didn't come across as negative. I really do like the late lux best: it's the more comfortable of the interiors, it's more fun at the real-world speeds of everyday UK roads that a turbo or S2, it's less hard work than an S. It's basically the car you'd jump in to every day without fear of big bills, points on your license, or needing a track to get halfway to it's limits. I think any 944 in that mileage/condition (not having seen it, but going on the description) will find a buyer prepared to pay what seems to be over the odds, on the face of it. Let's say £10K? Well, you'd struggle to find a sound 2.7 under, say, £3K? Factor in £5K for rust, respray and mechanicals, and you've an £8K car that's got double the miles. The costs-to-purchase-price is still out of kilter with 944s, compared with more exotic classics, so spending more up-front makes a lot of sense. Regarding new prices, I'd just use t'internet to be honest. [&o] Perhaps we could get price lists posted here? They are not copyrighted so there's no issue there. I can put a gallery of all the scanned price lists and brochures, original adverts etc. on the website. I've tried to get this sort of thing from Porsche before. The problem is, that in 1982 the prices, car details etc. were held on bits of paper, or on IBM computers the size of Belgium. Since then, the paper filing has gone in skips, and the computer records have gone through so many new systems it's almost meaningless. I reckon about half the Certificates of Authenticity contain errors first time out. There's no accurate information left, and even less people who care about a request like that.

 

[Hallsy]

ORIGINAL: Indi9xx I know some on here have posted the new prices for certain models over the years, but only one model and year at a time. Does the club have access to any archive information of how much the RRP of each 944 model was year by year? It would be really interesting, especially for this debate, to see what price difference there was between an 88 lux and a 88 turbo, as well as a turbo s But then again, it would be interesting to see the prices of the 911 and 928 prices from the same years, side by side. Is it something that maybe Porsche HQ in Reading might give you Paul? Or is it something someone here has already? I am a bit of a statistics freak like that though, love looking through that kind of info.

1983 - uk 944 lux £13390 (auto + £499) 1984 - uk 944 lux £16074 (auto + £953) 1985 - uk 944 lux £16880 (auto + £627) 1986 - uk 944 lux £18234 (auto + £727), Turbo £25311 1987 - uk 944 lux £21674 (auto + £879), S £23997, Turbo £32440 1988 - uk 944 lux £?, S £25149, Turbo £36874, Turbo S £41249 1989 - uk 944 lux £25990, S2 £31304, S2 cab £36713, Turbo £39892 1990 - uk 944 S2 £33963, S2 cab £38935, Turbo £42296 From one of Peter Morgan's books.

 

[Indi9xx]

Thanks Hallsy, that has satisfied my statistical autism for now

 

[Patch234]

ORIGINAL: PAUL RUDDY Another thing that aided Escort prices was continuous press coverage in the monthly mags, headlines of "Now's the time to buy" etc, this definitely helped as people didn't want to miss the boat, when the Porsche and Classic mags eventually pick up the 944 baton then prices will climb. cheers, Paul

Note to classic car mag editors. Everything is in place, values rising .......... Looking for a story?

 

[912UK]

ORIGINAL: Hallsy

ORIGINAL: 912UK I don't get the Turbo bubble but each to their own I guess. I have a 2.7 so is it now worth £10k LOL [] I recon I would get £2750 with it's new paint job around Mid Summer time. for mine. 89 F

I sold my '88 S last October, 130k, very good condition, very good history - in the end I sold it as an MOT failure for lower sill corrosion (which turned out to be not too serious once ground back by new owner) for £2500 - so I would say a good 2.7 with recent respray and no corrosion should easilly sell in excess of £2750. But as you say, each to their own []

Blimey.. well she's not perfect. Lots of small jobs.. in the words of Mike Brewer and Ed China.. abit of work and ours will be the best around.. ( BS [] ) [] I got it from Des as a rolling project. I am repainting it.. I have put 4 new tyres on it. Serviced it even though it already had been.. fixed a host of small issues.. the interior is really nice. once the paint is done then I would be interested in selling it.. only for one reason. I have 11 cars.. this was only ever really a fun car to enjoy and drive.. as it's given me the taste of more. I am either going to get an Audi 80 Convertable or an S2 944 as it's replacement. again it's a daily as I am not too bothered as long as I can look after it and keep it going for future people to enjoy it. I've really enjoyed owning a 944 and I have to say it's really made me not hanker after a 911 ( other than my normal interest in a 996 at the moment ) because it does 100% the same and I can park it anywhere and no one bats an eye lid ! the only thing with this 944 prob like alot of 944's is ....... it's had 19 owners! I bet 50 % of them where to say ... hey look at me I own a Porsche.. I can't see how 19 owners could have passed it up, because it's a cracker. Des said it's had new belts, serviced , new brakes ( I've seen the bodge job on the back ones , not Des some garage ) new Clutch ( that's a biggy Plus! ) it's just a lot of small repairs here and there on a long to do list I'm getting there.. To be honest I am owed a spray job from a mate as I will be doing the prep work. I can do the stickers as I have a sign cutter machine. I don't want to ring it out for the best price I would rather sell it cheaper to some one who has never had one and fancies a change. My local car club would be a good place to find a buyer.. a turn key future classic..

 

[pauljmcnulty]

Note to classic car mag editors. Everything is in place, values rising .......... Looking for a story?

I don't read around much, but this happens all the time. It was the spur to me to buy the Lux 11 years ago: "The best £5000 you'll ever spend", or some such headline, as prices for the Lux had dropped below that mark at last. Of course, they neglected to mention that they were still dropping: down to nearer £1500 a few years later! If the market is dropping it's "snap up a bargain 944 for silly money". If it's a boom, then "get in before the prices go too high as the 944 is the undervalued bargain of the century". Whatever the reason, the classic car mags love a 944 story as they are so cheap and dependable, but with the right badge on the front as well. []

 

[Patch234]

The other aspect is demographics - can't remember how much this has been mentioned already - but, people in their 30-40's just don't want to buy MGB's, GT6's and other similar cars (I would imagine - I certainly don't). They have no mental connection with them. At the moment the 80's are king. I wonder what the average readership age is of the glossy classic car mags we see on the shelves of the supermarkets?

 

[912UK]

I have seen Cabs go up abit more last year.. I am keen to keep an eye on those prices as we have one. [] But I think for the money / build their better than a Boxster ( bold statement I know ) but back to back as we tested them we went for the 944 Cab.. the sales man at the boxster place thought we where mad. No.. got to say I'm still happy we went for the Cab. Lack of 2 extra seats.. very limited boot space.. on going 6 pot engine issues.. price is still going down.. no one works on a Boxster much eg how too's on the forums. Yet 944 Cab ticked all of that list and looks way much better I mean just look at them.. shape is still timeless