R35 GTR v My 944 Turbo

[944 man]

Btw; Im only referring to the Skyline R32, R33 and R34 GT-Rs because Im familiar with them. Although the notion that any 951 could compete with the performance or lap times of an R35 GTR is ridiculous... Imagine if we said that a 944 Turbo was the match for a Porsche 911 GT2? The GTR may or may not be 'faster' around the Nordschleife, but theres only a couple of seconds between them and theyre both in another league (and I saw that as one of the biggest 924/944/968 enthusiasts that youll meet)..

 

[944 man]

For your amusement... []

 

[barks944]

Haha, quality.

What I don't get is why you dont think a 951 could stick it with those cars. I mean Porsche went to town restricting the 951 and 968 so they didn't compete with the 911's of the day. They even programmed restrictions into the code of the 951's ECU to hinder modifications to them. Its a total contrast to the jap cars like skylines etc which the manufacturers clearly want to be tuned. They want people to build these cars into monsters as it's good for their marketing. Porsche seem too build these great handling cars like the 944 and the Cayman but try and stop them from competing with the 911.

I guess at the end of the day the way to build a fast car is one with loads of downforce and low weight. Maybe Porsche have just accepted the fact that they can build any kind of mental car to go as fast as you please but consider that the 911 simply offers an excellent driving experience which is what a sports car is really about.

 

[sawood12]

Well Tom, I guess the 944 is a pretty simple car at the end of the day with its semi trailing arm rear suspension. Modern cars have come on and the GT-R is packed with alssorts of sportscar trickery as well as electronic and 4wd trickery. The 944 doesn't really stand a chance.

I think one mistake people make is that when Porsche, or any other manufacturer for that matter, releases a sportscar they release a car that is the best they can possibly make. They don't. For many reasons they design cars to achieve a specific level of performance - market placement, reliability, target market economics (insurance groupings etc) and many many more. The 944 turbo is what it is and is a product as much of the marketting men and accountants as it is engineers. There are tuners out there getting even more performance out of the GT-R and new 997 turbo so even these cars are not at their absolute limits in terms of capability.

Personally the thing Porsche are so good at is building a car that can basically do everything. Porsches have never been the most powerful, the best looking, the fastest or the best at anything in particular. What they have managed is to strike that balance and produce cars that can pretty much do everything very well. Take the new GT-R and 997 turbo. Yes the GT-R may be ever so slightly quicker round a track - but the 997 turbo is much much better in every other aspect - it accellarates quicker, is cheaper to run, more reliable, smaller and more compact, better built, more economical and more environmentally friendly. It is a far superior car. The only thing the GT-R does better is to go round tracks marginally quicker on special tyres that cost £1000 a corner. And 'that' ring time is basically pure fantasy. The car was hardly showroom fresh. It was supported by a team of about 10 engineers who took a whole weekend tweaking the suspension, 4wd system, diff and god knows what else to achieve that time after many attempts. When Porsche tried it they couldn't get anywhere near that time. People may think Porsche never intended to, but it is not in their interest to fabricate an artificially slow time when any motoring magazine could at anytime post a much quicker time and totally expose Porsche. Also don't forget that Porsche would have been keen to evaluate the car themselves. Also the new 997 turbo was not released in response to the GT-R - it was due for a facelift just like the rest of the Porsche line up.

If I had £55 grand to spend on a car I would consider a GT-R, along with an M3, RS4 or Cayman. If I had £100 grand i'd definately get a 997 turbo.

 

[333pg333]

ORIGINAL: Hilux

This is not a critique.....................

Unless proven otherwise, any track day *cough* racing [] is all down to the drivers and the size of their cahoonas [8|] and wallets.

He `may` just be a slower driver. He `may` not know the circuit as well. He `may` not want to drive it 99% in case he trashes his pride and joy. He `may` be on ordinary tyres with new blocky tread.

I hear so often about the "tw*t" in his Lamporarrinoble etc who held everyone up. Admittedly some people are arrogant enough to think that as they`ve a car that should be quick no-one can or should be able to overtake them but in a lot of cases so what, he`s got a nice car, he wants to learn it but isnt as proficient (or daring) as others but it is quick so is difficult to get past.

You also hear about the £10k track day special who boasts of eventually overtaking a GT3RS etc. Thats fine too as I wouldnt want to trash my brand new £100k Porker for sake of staying clear of someone who cares but doesnt have the same investment/risk but it doesnt necessarily mean he`s a better driver.

There are so many imponderables on a track its impossible to tell who is right or wrong.......hence forums and bar room chatter []


Discuss..............................................

Very true. Seen it plenty of times myself. In this case with the youtube clip I linked the guy was doing some nice 4 wheel drifting around turn 3 which unfortunately was obscured by mirror. He was going for it according to him later in the pits. I'm sure those GTRs can be made into real track weapons, and in fact already have been and of course they swamp our cars for tech, but if done properly, one of our cars can be 'brought up to speed' to give some of the more modern stuff a real taste of curry.

 

[Neil Haughey]

The problem with both cars Scott is they depreciate like a stone. A better solution would be to spend £35K on a 996 turbo. Its not like anyone really needs anything more. I can recall a few years back CCC magazine did a comparison between a £300K WRC car, the 996 turbo and a motorbike. On the mixed surface track they used the 996 turbo was as quick as the WRC car [8D]. Of course if one must have the latest techno marvel pointless marketing exercise then either car ticks all those boxes.

Personally I wouldn't have any of them, if I had £25K I would buy a CSL, if I had £35K I would buy a mk1 GT3, if I had £55K I would buy a 996RS, if I had even more money I would still buy the RS.

 

[barks944]

All good points Scott and well made. I will still be astounded the day I drive a car that's considerably nicer to drive than your old car is. Its even better with the new IC too , the way the turbo comes in really finishes it off. You don't feel like your waiting for it to come on boost, I'm not sure if it felt like that for you but it did a bit for me. Its got a more agressive feel to it now but it still doesn't catch you off guard. The boost still drops off at high RPM's though, wastegate I guess, not that it really makes any odds to how the car drives. I keep telling myself that I don't need to do any work to it but I just keep thinking how good it could be with a MAP based inection system and modern turbo.

 

[gavinm]

ORIGINAL: 944 man

Ive owned an R33 GTS-T Type-M, which isnt dissimilar to the R34, I believe. A GT-R is far quicker in my opinion and its only a four wheel drive car when the rear loses grip: if you dont need it then the front wheels arent driven.

I believe that Dirk Schoysman would prefer a GT-R to a GTS-T (R33/R34) around the ring too...

hhmm...I have no doubt that the GTR is quicker, and can also believe that Dirk would prefer a GTR for the ring, I was merely stating what I preferred for the ring..having owned a GTR and a GTT, I prefer the driving feel of the GTT, feels lighter, more involved..etc...



Regarding the comments about the GTR time around the Ring...of course the car was supported by a team of engineers...no car that is taken there by a manufacturer for an official time is not supported by engineers..this comment has no real value..if you look just outside the ring there are a growing number of manufactuerer centres built there specifically to support their cars testing and developments at the ring. I can assure you that Porsche also have a team of engineers on hand when they get down to some serious testing on the ring.

And as an employee of Dunlop Motorsport i can confirm 100% that the tyres used where Dunlop SP600 run flats for the second attempt, where the GTR was a bit quicker, recording a time of 7'27.56 using the GTR V Spec model which does have lighter wheels than the standard.....this tyre is the homologated tyre for GTR'S for Europe and Japan, the GTR Porsche used was imported from the states, it wasn't running on Dunlops, I don't know what it was running on...

HTH []

 

[gavinm]

P.P.S on a side note...

personally I wouldn't buy a GTR, I think they are a bit of a false economy....I know a few who have who have since sold them on, having experiemnted with the impressive power and performance they have gone back to either their R34 GTRs or looked at porkers....why? lack of soul apparently..

and by false economy....I'm sure you've all read about the nightmares customers have had with knackered gearboxes after playing with the launch control one too many times...invalidating warranties and incurring huge costs...

and then there is the incredible pedestrian safety device thingy that blows small charges at the bonnet hinge, popping it up....I read of a case recently where a guy had a very slow speed impact with the back of a van, initiating this safety device...and leaving him with a 10k+ bill as all the parts, including bumper, bonnet etc have to be replaced....

thread about it here...makes for interesting reading.... http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/127250-accident-dont-do-what-i-did.html

anyway...944s rock...and my cat's breath smells of tuna...that is all

*all above views are my personal opinion and are in no way intended to influence what Dirk Schoysman wants to drive around the ring []

 

[edh]

I can see both sides to this

There's no way you can compare a standard 250hp 944 turbo to a GTR....Just the power difference makes a huge impact especially on high speed tracks.

You can , of course, develop the 944 into something a little faster - If you took a 944 like this one http://www.zk5.nl/951Racer/Assen/index.html it would be a lot closer [].

 

[barks944]

This one too http://www.tonygarcia.org/944V8/

 

[bennyboy]

Well, didn't quite expect my original post to generate such heated debate, but that's why I love forums like this. You get all sorts of views and opinions, and often learn things you might not have otherwise. Have to say though...

There's no way you can compare a standard 250hp 944 turbo to a GTR

Not sure I agree with this Ed. I think as a general rule you can compare anything you like, and two front-engined, turbocharged cars are fairly similar as a starting point?

 

[edh]

OK - maybe I should have said there's no way they will be comparable (similar) in performance terms. Of course you can compare anything you like []

 

[TTM]

ORIGINAL: bennyboy
I think as a general rule you can compare anything you like, and two front-engined, turbocharged cars are fairly similar as a starting point?

Errr... no.
The GTR is a technological showcase while the 944 turbo is a slightly more powerful version of a workhorse designed to be driven all day long on the German motorways.
They both use four wheels but as far as I'm concerned the comparison doesn't go any further.

 

[barks944]

50/50 weight balance is also common to both cars due to the presence of a rear transaxle.

 

[DivineE]

ORIGINAL: gavinm

Perosnally I've currently got an R34 GTT Skyline, I never liked the four wheel drive GTR, always preferred RWD. It's set up for the ring, some minor engine tweaks, but mostly modified for handling, so uprated suspension, roll bars, brakes, cage etc. With toyo 888s it was an incredible car round the ring and got me round in 8.49, which is pretty respectable (with only 20 laps under my belt). I had a 33 GTR for a short while, again with minor engine mods and the power was incredible, but never felt as planted or 'flickable' for want of a better word than the 944 turbo...
I think pound for pound you will always get more performance out of the skyline, but you need to spend a lot more on handling to get it go round corners better than the porsche...

I find this really interesting. I mean no discredit AT ALL to the Skyline with this post because after driving flat out for many miles with an R33 running 1.6 bar boost I have a respect for them that I never had before and which can never be taken away. The sound, speed off the line and the ability to light up all four wheels at 70mph exiting a bend and snake down 150meters of road before braking for the next bend is something I've never seen anything 4wd do and although a tad scary to watch. WOW was it impressive! It just sounded so angry and violent on boost. Wish I'd caught it on film.

But.. I was also rather surprised at the R33's lack of cornering speed. Following the car I was amazed to catch it faster on the corners than the straights. I could see the car fighting to hold the line sliding from the front, then the back, then the front again in rappid little movements like a wobble as the 4wd struggled. My crude, basic, front engine / rwd Cerbera was able to catch and follow with ease.

I'd have argued much harder for the Porsche before this experience but I think you'd have to drive a fairly special car to keep with the R35. I'm not saying it couldn't be done though. I think a 350hp 944t on KW's would be a close fight. I'd love to see it... or try it in an organised race between them.

As for the comment about driving a more valuable car more carefully. I've never felt that. I drove my Z4m as hard as anything I've ever driven and to me at the time it was a very high value!

 

[sawood12]

ORIGINAL: gavinm

Regarding the comments about the GTR time around the Ring...of course the car was supported by a team of engineers...no car that is taken there by a manufacturer for an official time is not supported by engineers..this comment has no real value..if you look just outside the ring there are a growing number of manufactuerer centres built there specifically to support their cars testing and developments at the ring. I can assure you that Porsche also have a team of engineers on hand when they get down to some serious testing on the ring.

And as an employee of Dunlop Motorsport i can confirm 100% that the tyres used where Dunlop SP600 run flats for the second attempt, where the GTR was a bit quicker, recording a time of 7'27.56 using the GTR V Spec model which does have lighter wheels than the standard.....this tyre is the homologated tyre for GTR'S for Europe and Japan, the GTR Porsche used was imported from the states, it wasn't running on Dunlops, I don't know what it was running on...

HTH []

I'm afraid I disagree - or at least come from a completely different school of thought. The time is completely irrelevant unless the car is completely in stock production trim - i.e. the standard the car would be if you went and bought one. The GT-R that posted that time was far from bone stock trim - as Porsche has demonstrated when they took a bone stock one round themselves- it was way way off that pace. The official Porsche ring times for each model are for a bone stock car on stock tyres. I realise the tyres on the GT-R are 'stock' tyres (i.e. the ones they come with), but they're hardly like Continental Contisports - they're much more akin to R spec tyres - pretty specialist pieces of kit - and the price of nearly £1k a corner demonstrates that (i'm sure you'll correct me if i'm wrong, but it is what i've read in many magazines). Now if you stuck a 997 turbo on semi-slicks, got a team of Porsche engineers to customise the cars' setup specifically for a single glory ring run on a particular day then the times would be far far closer.

Tom - sounds like you're having a blast in the old girl. Good on you. I noticed a night and day difference to how the turbo picked up when I installed the DPW (got 240bhp on the 'rollers of truth'). I then noticed another night and day difference when I installed the ECU chips and increased boost (got the 179bhp on the same 'rollers of truth'). Sounds like you are unlocking more potential. Get a Vitesse MAF kit on her and you'll unlock even more. The free'er flowing MAF will allow the turbo to spool up a bit quicker and will help flow more air at higher RPM. Keep us posted!!

 

[333pg333]

ORIGINAL: edh

I can see both sides to this

There's no way you can compare a standard 250hp 944 turbo to a GTR....Just the power difference makes a huge impact especially on high speed tracks.

You can , of course, develop the 944 into something a little faster - If you took a 944 like this one http://www.zk5.nl/951Racer/Assen/index.html it would be a lot closer [].

Indeed Hans' car would eat a stock GTR but then his car is a very well built racer so that's not fair. Tony G's car is not quite as high tech as Hans' but it is also impressively quick. Not a true Porsche, but from what I've seen he has a few pretty quick cars as scalps on the track.

From what I've seen of the GTRs on the track in my mind there is no way they could beat a GT2 around a race track, especially one as long as the 'Ring. Not in stock form at least. I have been on the track with both GT2s and GTRs and I can't keep sight of the GT2s, yet I'm pretty close to the Nissans on 2 tracks. Just my observation of course.

 

[edh]

From what I've seen the GTR needs a different driving style to make it go really quick - it looks like you have to throw it at the corners & the electronics sort it out for you - too smooth & they don't work so well. Kind of counter intuitive.

 

[barks944]

Tom - sounds like you're having a blast in the old girl. Good on you. I noticed a night and day difference to how the turbo picked up when I installed the DPW (got 240bhp on the 'rollers of truth'). I then noticed another night and day difference when I installed the ECU chips and increased boost (got the 179bhp on the same 'rollers of truth'). Sounds like you are unlocking more potential. Get a Vitesse MAF kit on her and you'll unlock even more. The free'er flowing MAF will allow the turbo to spool up a bit quicker and will help flow more air at higher RPM. Keep us posted!!

I do like the vitesse kit, especially the full package with the piggyback and v-flex. Although after being told by JM that there is a full engine management kit being produced I'm tempted to wait for that or to setup one myself. I think adding an EBC at this point would give a really quick spooling turbo, maybe too quick .