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ROLLING ROAD DAY - DSAUTOMOTIVES 31st MAY

ORIGINAL: JBL930
Nathan, yes mate, get out in the garage and get the frikin car finished, otherwise i'll come round and start ebaying parts off it [:D]

Haha.. I don't think eBay would be necessary - I know of someone (me) who would quite like his modified fuel and K27 HF (as distinct from the K27/K29 [;)])
 
"Don't forget the S.."
"So that's K27HF-S?"

I did know, Nath - I was just saving keystrokes! Either way, I'm sure it'll work just fine in my car, once Jonathan's sold it to me [;)]

Come on, mate, I've seen those pictures of your shattered pistons rings for what must be getting on for 2 years!
"Man cannot live on Carrera alone!" [:)]
 
They weren't my pics. My car was absolutely fine when I took him to pieces... 13.1 wasn't quick enough!

It's HFS not HF-S [:D]

John, any idea what your 1/4 mile is?
 

ORIGINAL: nathan 1981 930 G50

They weren't my pics. My car was absolutely fine when I took him to pieces... 13.1 wasn't quick enough!

It's HFS not HF-S [:D]

John, any idea what your 1/4 mile is?

No idea Nathan, i think a lot would depend on the driver and how aggressive the start was, I know nothing about drag racing and quarter mile timing, what do other 500+BHP 930's do it in?

Oh and it Jon not John [:D] Ha ha ha
 
Ooops, yeah I knew that too. Sorry Jon.

No idea on other 930's. Supposedly they don't make great drag cars anyway.

I've never been taught how to drag race properly. They just wave you up to the line and then you stop. You can spin up the tyres if you want with the help of the water on the ground before you get to the line to get some heat in to them. Then you simply pull away when the lights change.
I tried pulling away gently, medium and hard. Medium worked better.

Those times were only the second time I've ever driven on the strip. I had 3 runs that day and IIRC I only had about 5 runs my first time driving on the strip 14 years ago in a 2.0 Opel Manta GT/E.
 
Simon and Jonathan - any "Big Numbers news" yet?

(I'd ask you, too, Nathan - but I suspect your engine is still stored in boxes? [;)])
 
I did some the other week, but it hardly looked any different...

It's really just the CIS, silencer and IC left to fit. A new CV boot and something wrong with one of the door opening mechanisms. Then refit the rear bumper etc etc.
 
tom

All being well I am going back to dsa this wednesday. Fitted modded fuel head today and now need to turn back idle mixture to get to to run at at stand still. Also have adjustable WUR and done dry fit (but want to get car running with new fuel head first). I will let you know how I get on.

cheers Simon
 
Hi Simon

Here is some good reading for you http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?t=413261&highlight=fuel+head+shim This should help you do any necessary adjustments, you need to get your system pressure right and then have your warm up regulator brought into factory specs, then adjust it from there when you are at DSA. You will find though that getting a good 12.0:1 afr (or ideally high 11's) right up at the red line with your 1.2bar of boost will make the car unbearably rich at the onset of boost, the ONLY way to flatten this out is by delaying the boost to the warm up regulator, this is done by adding a solenoid valve in the boost line that is triggered to open at a certain RPM, you will need to delay enrichment until around 4200rpm but it will all depend on your particular set up. You might fair better than others as you have a big turbo that doesn't start spooling as early as a K27 which will help delaying enrichment but you will need to add the solenoid anyway, you can get one from Brian Leask
Do you have any CIS fuel pressure testing equipment?

Some more reading
http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforum...d.php?t=229563
http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforum...d.php?t=267808
http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforum...ad.php?t=90105
http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforum...d.php?t=122798
http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforum...ad.php?t=86871
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I'm not sure how technical or rich Simon is but the way I will do my AFR is to use an AFR setup in the car on the road/track.
From what I know about the adjustable WUR it is very time consuming to tweak, I couldn't pay rolling road time to have it tweaked.
Another option which is pretty cool is to relocate the WUR in the engine bay so it is easier/quicker to adjust. Of course, once set the unit can be put back in the stock location.
The quickest thing to tune is the DigiWUR and that will get you a much flatter AFR curve. Also, you then wouldn't need that solenoid valve that didn't come with UK cars.
 
I think Simon would like to keep things mechanical, plus there needs to be a bit more feed back on the digi WUR before it's classed as the best option. As you know Nathan i'm a fan of the thing and i had one of the first ones on order. The lack of people coming forward with dyno sheets and fuel curves is a bit worrying, i would have expected masses of data by now but there is nothing, literally nothing, doesn't that strike you as a bit odd? A well set up adjustable unit and the solenoid will give you a near flat AFR, not as controlled as the digi unit claims to be but flat enough for good throttle response and to keep the engine nice and healthy, whilst also improve on MPG, I think that will be good enough for most, plus it's bound to be more reliable
 
ORIGINAL: JBL930
The lack of people coming forward with dyno sheets and fuel curves is a bit worrying, i would have expected masses of data by now but there is nothing, literally nothing, doesn't that strike you as a bit odd?

I'm glad that I'm not the only soul thinking this - even 'our own' Stu P hasn't posted up yet!

But given that about 10 persons claim to have bought and fitted UTCIS, I should have thought statistically that at least one would have pinned up the results!

I am amazed.

How hard is it to do? Not very. So why has nobody done it?!
 
You both have good points but I don't really see how it can't work. I'm usually one to see faults with so called better parts. I don't know, I just get a good feeling about it.

As for Stu P, he has problems but I'm pretty confident that unwired will sort it out. The 964t has a different mapped igniton system and is causing a problem with the rpm sensor on the utcis.

I helped a chap out on Pelican with fine tuning his utcis and it would seem to me that he has his car running well and is just too busy driving it - unlike me...

Do either of you fancy that little trackday in Cambridge? http://www.porscheclubgbforum.com/tm.asp?m=393414
 
I spent 6 hours at DSA today with plenty of time on the Dyno. End result in summary is that we could not get the Imagine fuel head or WUR to work as we hope (we tried all combinations of standard WUR, standard head and modified units). "Best" we got was massive overfueling as power curve builds up but at max power we could not get AFR to 0.9 on full bhp level (best we saw was about 0.85, but with far too much fuel during power build up phase for marginal improvement in full bhp AFR).

So I drove the car home with the standard parts fitted back on and best of 0.9 AFR on full power (only using 4k rpm!).

I am going away for a few days and will play this in my mind. To be honest I just wonder if the CIS can provide enough fuel for 500bhp (we saw 483bhp on one run) and if there is an issue with injectors or some other mechanical part.

I will be doing some research on EFI to protect the investment in the engine thus far!!!*!!! unless someone can show me a proven 500bhp CIS set-up and let me know what I need to do. I am running out of parts and patience (and wasted money).

cheers ...simon
 
Sorry to hear that Simon, what was your system pressure? Not the control pressure from the WUR but the actual system pressure? This has a massive effect on what the fuel head will deliver.
I mentioned in my e-mails that you will have to use a solenoid valve to delay the boost signal to the WUR which would get rid of the rich mid range, if you had this with you yesterday and you also got your system pressure adjusted by adding or removing shims from the fuel head you would be writing a different report.
Did they also set up the adjustable WUR to factory specs or were they playing hit and miss?
The set up works Simon, proven many many times over, it just needs to be done methodically.
There is some info in this thread with regards to using the modified fuel head and adjustable WUR and there are some other links to other threads on there too. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?t=413261&highlight=CIS+limit
I've heard of people getting 470bhp at the wheels which equates to a good chunk over 500bhp at the flywheel, you will be near the limit though so it needs to be done properly. If you do decide to junk the CIS and go EFI then I know the right man for the job
 
Another quick observation, you mentioned 0.85 and 0.9 afr, these are Lambda figures not afr.
1.0 Lambda is 14.7afr, so at 0.9 Lambda you are seeing 13.23:1 afr when you want to be at 12.0:1 max. The ideal Lambda you are looking for is 0.80 while on boost and up to the red line, it can go as high as 0.82 but certainly no higher, especially at 1.2bar.

You are probably sick of thinking about it by now Simon and the last thing you need is me babbling on at you, but as you know i've been down the same road and i'm just trying to help. What Nathan said earlier is a good idea, if you get the CIS test gauges you can set up the fuel system yourself, if you also purchase the LM-1 or LM-2 from Innovate Motorsports with the necessary sensors you can precisely log your RPM, Boost and AFR on a lap top live whilst on the road. The CIS gauges are cheap and the Innovate stuff will be good to have hooked up whether you are sticking with CIS or going EFI.

My guess is that you need to add some shims in the fuel head to raise system pressure, your pumps will run at over 100psi, most people see too much fuel at around 90psi and end up dropping this down to around 80 or so, if you have a look at your system pressure i bet it's around 80, when i ordered the fuel head i was around 415bhp and Stephen at Imagine knew this, I could ask him what he set it at but you need to check it for yourself and adjust it for more.
The chap at DSA seams like a really nice fella but i didn't get the impression that CIS was his specialty, I wish you all the best with it mate!

JBL
 
ORIGINAL: sjd

To be honest I just wonder if the CIS can provide enough fuel for 500bhp (we saw 483bhp on one run) and if there is an issue with injectors or some other mechanical part.
Had a chuckle when I saw "0.8 AFR" - "Christ! It is running rich!"

I always heard a figure of 450bhp as the limit of tuning up a CIS 930. But this was about 6 years ago and there might have been a few recent developments. Hope you get it all sorted out, Si.

Stephen Kaspar has one of these damn UTCIS devices sitting there, still in the packaging, on his desk. If there is anyone we could trust to give a genuine BEFORE and tuned AFTER Dyno Run, it's him. But he hasn't done it. [:mad:]

I hope to get one fitted to my car (along with Lambda sensor) in the next week or so. Then I'll let you know.




 
Tom, I'm taking the carrera.

Jonathan is on the right track with the solenoid valve as the modded head actually flows too much fuel at certain times, usually between 3-4K rpm. This has proven to be a good mod.
However, I really think it's time to get the digital wur and you can map what ever your engine or combo of CIS parts need.
Simon, are you running the stock CDI? If so then the utcis should work fine.

As for getting 500bhp out of CIS with all the trick stuff out there you shouldn't run out of fuel, but actually air.
The system pressure can be bumped up but this also then means that in the mid range rpm you get too much fuel.
One other thing is do you have a modded USA head or a modded euro one? What colour is the head? The modded USA is supposed to flow more fuel than a modded euro one. The USA heads are silver.
The reason I think this is, although it's never been disclosed, is that the USA heads have a provision for a CO sensor controlled device (I forget the correct name) that the euro head did not have. This is may well be used to let even more fuel flow through the head. I may be wrong on why the USA head flows more though.

So, if you get the utcis and a high system pressure you should be able to flow more fuel & be able to reduce fuelling pressure at the injectors in the mid range.
 

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