Suspension Upgrade for 944 S2
- Thread starter herbie75
- Start date
Chaps,
Don't push the poor lad towards things he can't afford! I have no doubt that KW's are a much superior option to the Koni's (just from what I have read on here), but I couldn't have afforded that option either so went for the Koni's!
Steve, the opinions on here about KW's will tell you as much as I know about how good they are (and they sound simply excellent). However, changing to Koni's on mine transformed the car, and I don't regret it one bit. As I said before, anything new will be better than your old, worn-out current items (even replacement OE shocks), and you will notice it the moment you drive the car. Don't skimp on other things as well - some replacement ARB bushes are a good idea (and cheap), and a full geo afterwards is absolutely essential.
Yes, it is the cheap option, but I would contend that it will leave you with a car which is more than adequete for the vast majority of drivers; I run out of skill in my thus-equipped S2 before the car runs out of answers. As a budget option, I am extremely happy with it, and it cost me about £700 all in (DIY'd the whole thing.) If KW's will cost you £2-2.5k, ask yourself whether you would rather that extra £1300 - £1800 was in your pocket or someone else's ...
Oli.
Don't push the poor lad towards things he can't afford! I have no doubt that KW's are a much superior option to the Koni's (just from what I have read on here), but I couldn't have afforded that option either so went for the Koni's!
Steve, the opinions on here about KW's will tell you as much as I know about how good they are (and they sound simply excellent). However, changing to Koni's on mine transformed the car, and I don't regret it one bit. As I said before, anything new will be better than your old, worn-out current items (even replacement OE shocks), and you will notice it the moment you drive the car. Don't skimp on other things as well - some replacement ARB bushes are a good idea (and cheap), and a full geo afterwards is absolutely essential.
Yes, it is the cheap option, but I would contend that it will leave you with a car which is more than adequete for the vast majority of drivers; I run out of skill in my thus-equipped S2 before the car runs out of answers. As a budget option, I am extremely happy with it, and it cost me about £700 all in (DIY'd the whole thing.) If KW's will cost you £2-2.5k, ask yourself whether you would rather that extra £1300 - £1800 was in your pocket or someone else's ...
Oli.
But if a Caterfield is an option he can afford it, he uses the car quite extensively on track so he'd get the benefit of KW, it won't be cheap getting Konis if he then decides it wasn't good enough and goes KW anyway and DIY KW should be closer to £1,500 - if the car needs fuel lines etc. while fitting KW then it needs them already; hardly the suspension's fault.
I suspect the whole reason the KW setup is so good is the high speed bypass valve which lets a big thump be accommodated like a soft damper while acting like a nice taught one most of the time. I hadn't really noticed how good it is at this until Paul S was my passenger at Silverstone and I was merrily kerb hopping and he pointed out that that sort of behaviour in an M030 car would have had it launched into the air.
Admittedly KWs are a bit wasted on an S2 of course... [
]
I suspect the whole reason the KW setup is so good is the high speed bypass valve which lets a big thump be accommodated like a soft damper while acting like a nice taught one most of the time. I hadn't really noticed how good it is at this until Paul S was my passenger at Silverstone and I was merrily kerb hopping and he pointed out that that sort of behaviour in an M030 car would have had it launched into the air.
Admittedly KWs are a bit wasted on an S2 of course... [
]A caterfield is an option for the fellow if he sells his current S2. Does (Selling price of S2 + Cost of KW's) = (Cost of caterfield)? If so, I take your point. Having said that, there is also the fact that if he spent £2k on KW's for his S2 then he wouldn't get his money back when he sold the car, whereas if he buys a caterfield then he is much more likely to get that money back when he moves it on for the next thing.
I also know what it feels like to be on a forum with a bunch of people with a lot more ready cash to spend on their cars than I have, and feeling slightly as if I am missing out on lots of fun, and possibly descending to the status of second-class citizen as a result. I'd hate to think that Steve is in this boat, and I am trying to encourage him that I have been in the position of choosing between KW's and Koni's, and I chose Koni's, and am delighted with the result.
Yes, DIY-ing KW's would bring the price down a lot, but it seems to be the accepted notion that KW's need the rear torsion bar re-indexed, and I suspect that is beyond my DIY-ability. (It certainly would put the car off the road for a number of days, and if, like me, you need it as a daily driver then you can only tackle jobs that take no longer than a weekend. This puts re-indexing out of the question.)
(ETA: If it was possible to fit KW's without needing to re-index the rear torsion bar, this making it a DIY possibility for me, then I would probably have gone this route.)
Yes, from the technical descriptions I have read it does sound like the KW bypass valve is the thing that makes the difference. Of course, you could avoid driving over kerbs at high speed ...
"Admittedly KWs are a bit wasted on an S2 of course... "
Excellent! Tacit admission that I made the right choice with Koni's. Steve, save those pennies! []
Oli.
I also know what it feels like to be on a forum with a bunch of people with a lot more ready cash to spend on their cars than I have, and feeling slightly as if I am missing out on lots of fun, and possibly descending to the status of second-class citizen as a result. I'd hate to think that Steve is in this boat, and I am trying to encourage him that I have been in the position of choosing between KW's and Koni's, and I chose Koni's, and am delighted with the result.
Yes, DIY-ing KW's would bring the price down a lot, but it seems to be the accepted notion that KW's need the rear torsion bar re-indexed, and I suspect that is beyond my DIY-ability. (It certainly would put the car off the road for a number of days, and if, like me, you need it as a daily driver then you can only tackle jobs that take no longer than a weekend. This puts re-indexing out of the question.)
(ETA: If it was possible to fit KW's without needing to re-index the rear torsion bar, this making it a DIY possibility for me, then I would probably have gone this route.)
Yes, from the technical descriptions I have read it does sound like the KW bypass valve is the thing that makes the difference. Of course, you could avoid driving over kerbs at high speed ...
"Admittedly KWs are a bit wasted on an S2 of course... "
Excellent! Tacit admission that I made the right choice with Koni's. Steve, save those pennies! [
]Oli.
Ahh, but if the car is a daily driver, hence DIYing the KW fitment is tricky to schedule then selling it for a Caterfield would leave a daily transport shaped hole in the fleet... I don't think a Caterfield of any quality could be bought for the price of an S2 plus KW kit; they go 5 figures plus, don't they? I mean for real ones, not those lookey-likeys based on bits of old Sierra.
As it happens I'm sure you'd be well able to reindex; I was surprised how easy it is after hearing all the stuff about it that seems to suggest it's a black art. That's not to say it isn't a major job, but major in terms of the time it takes to disassemble it all and then reassemble - it's all big bolts and simple engineering so there is nothing fiddly (so long as you can count splines), easily broken or confusing to deal with.
I take your point on the other stuff. A key difference is that your car is your daily transport and that's it, whereas the OP does (at a guess) 3-5 trackdays a year. Dave is absolutely right that he'd have a lot more fun with the better stuff.
As far as not kerb hopping is concerned - that's one of the best bits about driving on track!
As it happens I'm sure you'd be well able to reindex; I was surprised how easy it is after hearing all the stuff about it that seems to suggest it's a black art. That's not to say it isn't a major job, but major in terms of the time it takes to disassemble it all and then reassemble - it's all big bolts and simple engineering so there is nothing fiddly (so long as you can count splines), easily broken or confusing to deal with.
I take your point on the other stuff. A key difference is that your car is your daily transport and that's it, whereas the OP does (at a guess) 3-5 trackdays a year. Dave is absolutely right that he'd have a lot more fun with the better stuff.
As far as not kerb hopping is concerned - that's one of the best bits about driving on track!
Daily driver comment - yes. true.
Caterfields costing 5-figures? No - he actually said a Westfield, which is the cheaper end of the market, like this nice example for less than the cost of a decent S2 (even in this depressed climate) :
http://pistonheads.com/sales/588358.htm
.... and at that price, I could be sorely tempted ... !
Re-indexing torsion bar ... OK. I have only briefly read the clarkes-garage write-up, and my eyes glazed over about half way through. I have no handle on how easy or hard it is. Maybe I'll try it some day ... maybe.
Yes, the woes of having only one car, and needing it as daily transport. As I said on the titanic eMail, the appeal of a house with lots of ground to be able to store a fleet of interesting cars is huge, but living where I do means that whatever car I have lives on the street, and work is done on it on the side of the road. Parking is done by annual permit, which is going up quicker than Dave Cameron's poll ratings, and therefore I simply cannot afford more than one vehicle. (Which is perhaps why I drive a 944, and an S2 at that, as it is a hoot to drive but is also practical and not expensive. Despite not being that fast, or a patch on a 951. But don't quote me on that, eh?)
Kerb-hopping? I have done one track day in my entire life, and that was in a Mk2 Golf. Great fun, but when I spun it there were no kerbs anywhere - it was straight onto grass. Maybe that's why Bedford is considered to be a 'good beginners track' ...
Oli.
Caterfields costing 5-figures? No - he actually said a Westfield, which is the cheaper end of the market, like this nice example for less than the cost of a decent S2 (even in this depressed climate) :
http://pistonheads.com/sales/588358.htm
.... and at that price, I could be sorely tempted ... !
Re-indexing torsion bar ... OK. I have only briefly read the clarkes-garage write-up, and my eyes glazed over about half way through. I have no handle on how easy or hard it is. Maybe I'll try it some day ... maybe.
Yes, the woes of having only one car, and needing it as daily transport. As I said on the titanic eMail, the appeal of a house with lots of ground to be able to store a fleet of interesting cars is huge, but living where I do means that whatever car I have lives on the street, and work is done on it on the side of the road. Parking is done by annual permit, which is going up quicker than Dave Cameron's poll ratings, and therefore I simply cannot afford more than one vehicle. (Which is perhaps why I drive a 944, and an S2 at that, as it is a hoot to drive but is also practical and not expensive. Despite not being that fast, or a patch on a 951. But don't quote me on that, eh?)
Kerb-hopping? I have done one track day in my entire life, and that was in a Mk2 Golf. Great fun, but when I spun it there were no kerbs anywhere - it was straight onto grass. Maybe that's why Bedford is considered to be a 'good beginners track' ...
Oli.
Big Dave
New member
Fen.
What do you mean buy, "Wasted on a S2".????
I seem to remember "spanking" your ass at Oulton, in a "lowly/underpowered" KW equiped S2.???[][][][][]. I must have been giving away a good 100bhp.???[][][][][]
The last thing i ,or i suspect anybody would want to do is "push" anybody into spending more than they can afford...
Just pointing out the fact that KW ,,IS about the best kit for a 944/ 968. Other than the Bilstein "escort cup" stuff...But that is NON adjustable..
Ive used the "koni / M030" kit on my car + wasnt at all impressed...Very harsh + "old school"....
I have nothing but praise for the KW..[][][][] + if you or anybody else is at a T day that im at. I have no probs in taking you out for a demo.....[][][][]
What do you mean buy, "Wasted on a S2".????
I seem to remember "spanking" your ass at Oulton, in a "lowly/underpowered" KW equiped S2.???[
][][][][]. I must have been giving away a good 100bhp.???[][][][][]The last thing i ,or i suspect anybody would want to do is "push" anybody into spending more than they can afford...
Just pointing out the fact that KW ,,IS about the best kit for a 944/ 968. Other than the Bilstein "escort cup" stuff...But that is NON adjustable..
Ive used the "koni / M030" kit on my car + wasnt at all impressed...Very harsh + "old school"....
I have nothing but praise for the KW..[
][][][] + if you or anybody else is at a T day that im at. I have no probs in taking you out for a demo.....[][][][]That Westfield is way cheaper than I thought they were. It isn't a particularly desirable example though being largely old Sierra itself, and why on earth do people fit those horrible "cuddly" alloys? Maybe 13" is the right diameter for the car but there's not excuse not to use Superlight or Revolution or something in keeping with the style.
S2 comment may have originated as a sanding (or even standing) joke between Fen and I, but I am now getting the whole of PCGB <strikethrough> well indoctrinated into the mindset </strikethrough> into understanding the truth that the S2 is dramatically much the superior vehicle ...
Oli.
ETA: Formatting doesn't work on here. Oh well.
Oli.
ETA: Formatting doesn't work on here. Oh well.
I suspect that owners of 2.0 pinto-equipped Westfields probably react to "old sierra" comments in much the same way that 924 owners react to "VW Van engine" comments. There is a basis of truth, but the end results are dramatically different.
By 'cuddly' I presume you mean 'small', when referring to wheels. Perhaps chosen because bigger wheels are not necessarily the best thing when it comes to handling. A degree of compliance in the sidewalls is essential, and the suspension (and the rest of the car) is set with that in mind. As one who is not a fan of big wheels (de rigeur for those who like bling on their recreational pharmaceutical delivery vehicles, innit bruv), I have a lot of sympathy with such a viewpoint.
Another (but more expensive) example is here: Zetec engine (so recycled focus rather than sierra), and larger wheels.
http://pistonheads.com/sales/590824.htm
Probably sold for less than eight big ones.
Oli.
By 'cuddly' I presume you mean 'small', when referring to wheels. Perhaps chosen because bigger wheels are not necessarily the best thing when it comes to handling. A degree of compliance in the sidewalls is essential, and the suspension (and the rest of the car) is set with that in mind. As one who is not a fan of big wheels (de rigeur for those who like bling on their recreational pharmaceutical delivery vehicles, innit bruv), I have a lot of sympathy with such a viewpoint.
Another (but more expensive) example is here: Zetec engine (so recycled focus rather than sierra), and larger wheels.
http://pistonheads.com/sales/590824.htm
Probably sold for less than eight big ones.
Oli.
sawood12
New member
Well the other option is of course to keep your old saggy suspension and invest in driving lessons. I've seen a well driven stock 944T spank GT3RS' into next week on a track day. How fast you are on track is probably 90% down to drvier skill. It was a funny sight though as it was leaning 2CV style around the bends.
Actually I suspect that they use some Sierra chassis components also. The Pinto wouldn't be my first engine choice, but I'd consider it an RS2000 engine rather than a Sierra one (although clearly it was both).
By cuddly I mean with the "My Little Pony" soft spoke looks hence my suggesting 13" in Revolution or Superlight style being what the car needs.
The red one is much more the idea, however it's worth more than an S2 plus KW.
By cuddly I mean with the "My Little Pony" soft spoke looks hence my suggesting 13" in Revolution or Superlight style being what the car needs.
The red one is much more the idea, however it's worth more than an S2 plus KW.
Intresting comments guys [][]....The 944 for me is only realy a toy hence why i dont want to give away my right arm for a suspension up grade...I know i could give up my 3 trips to the fast land next year and that would cover the cost for the KW but where would be the fun in that....? i was thinking about the westfields as good friend of mine picked up a nice V8 model which was in very clean order and i know its made up from mostly ford and rover parts but its a great drive and i was smileing for hours after driving that []... I guess if i could do the re-ndexing of the torsion bar then i would go down the KW road as besides that fitting wouldnt realy be that hard as i have access to two poster ramp and any tools i might need but the word re-ndexing the torsion is like the words the the mother in-law is staying the weekend ![]...i think when i come back from my holiday i will follow Oli and Herbie and get the Konis on her...Are these Koni sports much like the MO3Os fitted to the 968cs ?.is there anything esle parts wise i might need ?
Cheers Steve.
][]....The 944 for me is only realy a toy hence why i dont want to give away my right arm for a suspension up grade...I know i could give up my 3 trips to the fast land next year and that would cover the cost for the KW but where would be the fun in that....? i was thinking about the westfields as good friend of mine picked up a nice V8 model which was in very clean order and i know its made up from mostly ford and rover parts but its a great drive and i was smileing for hours after driving that []... I guess if i could do the re-ndexing of the torsion bar then i would go down the KW road as besides that fitting wouldnt realy be that hard as i have access to two poster ramp and any tools i might need but the word re-ndexing the torsion is like the words the the mother in-law is staying the weekend ![]...i think when i come back from my holiday i will follow Oli and Herbie and get the Konis on her...Are these Koni sports much like the MO3Os fitted to the 968cs ?.is there anything esle parts wise i might need ?Cheers Steve.
Diver944
Active member
Speak to Darren or Oli at RPM Porsche. I am pretty confident they have fitted KW's for a couple of forum members WITHOUT re-indexing the Torsion Bars. Yes, it means you cannot slam the car to the ground like most people seem to do, but you can maintain the factory ride height quite comfortably.
Are you sure? The KW has a fairly decent spring as part of the rear unit and you have to preload it for the suspension to work properly. When you do that it jacks the back of the car up quite surprisingly.
Not going for KW just because you don't fancy reindexing is a bit like holidaying in Bognor because you don't the flight to the Seychelles.
Lastly, no; the Konis being discussed above are not like the 968 M030, which is like the 944 M030 (except ironically you need to reindex the torsions as the 968 version uses helper springs on the back). They are non-adjustable fast road versions which Thom has pointed out elsewhere are too soft for his thick front ARB so he had to go back to a thinner one. Fine for the road but I don't think you'd be impressed with them on track. As Dave has said (as well as me) even the M030 is left unable to answer most questions asked of it on track.
Not going for KW just because you don't fancy reindexing is a bit like holidaying in Bognor because you don't the flight to the Seychelles.
Lastly, no; the Konis being discussed above are not like the 968 M030, which is like the 944 M030 (except ironically you need to reindex the torsions as the 968 version uses helper springs on the back). They are non-adjustable fast road versions which Thom has pointed out elsewhere are too soft for his thick front ARB so he had to go back to a thinner one. Fine for the road but I don't think you'd be impressed with them on track. As Dave has said (as well as me) even the M030 is left unable to answer most questions asked of it on track.
Tam Lin
New member
Hi Chaps,
When the KW v3 was fitted by JZ Machtech to my 924S, the rear TBar was NOT re-indexed, just adjusted down on eccentrics. It was fine both on road and track, but it did rather negate the point of rear coil-overs (though still a great improvement on previous standard set up).
I've since had the TBar re-indexed by Promax.
When the KW v3 was fitted by JZ Machtech to my 924S, the rear TBar was NOT re-indexed, just adjusted down on eccentrics. It was fine both on road and track, but it did rather negate the point of rear coil-overs (though still a great improvement on previous standard set up).
I've since had the TBar re-indexed by Promax.
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