Suspension Upgrade for 944 S2

[mike220]

Afternoon Gents.

Just a quick question (and sorry if it's a silly one - I've only had the car for a week so I'm just getting my head round stuff. Search facility doesn't work either, so that's not helping me !! []) :

Am I right in thinking S2 suspension and Turbo suspension are the same ? (don't shoot me if it's not lol)

As MY car definately needs an update, and I'm wondering if all the good advice on this thread can answer a lot of my questions. I understand KW V3 is the pinnacle to aim for, but I doubt I'll be tracking the car, and the suspension budget just doesn't cover that cost. If it's the same, I'll do some more digging before doing a seperate post on final specs/options etc.

Cheers guys,

Mike

 

[RC18B 911 turbo]

Just received my KW V3s this morning and they look like beauties, worth the money just to look at them lol, shame I won't be able to once fitted though.

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r159/JonathanLavis/pic027.jpg

 

[Big Dave]

How many times do i have to say...[8|][8|][8|][8|][8|][8|][8|]
You DEFINATELY need to lower the rear of the car ON the torsions for the package to work as designed....You DEFO need to lower a 968 CS on the torsions to make that work, SO you defo have to do a 944S2/turbo, as they ARE set higher....
Otherwise your just playing at it, + NOT getting anything like the best out of your KW, or any other coil over package.... After all why fit it in the first place...??????????

If you fit the KW. You obviously want a performance pack.. ie lower Centre of gravity.. Meaning better cornering etc etc etc .. So WHY WHY WHY fit the stuff + have a higher ride height than standard.....Your car WILL look like its on stilts.....+ im shure will also handle realy c##p......

Fitting Kw , over the M030 stuff is "in my opinion" is FAR better + i would go as far as to say that your wasting your ££££ if you fit M030, as it [ M030] IS too harsh on the road AND too soft for serious track use...Its an old design....
KW is softer on road, then you can stiffen / adjust the valving for the track.... I do this every time i go on track....Takes about 10 mins TOPS....
Think about it. If you do fit the M030 ,, then find your not keen, youve then got to fit a "better" package, KW...Costing EXTRA ££££ in the long run.....

BUT the decision is ultimately YOURS........................And your budget is YOURS....
You pays your money + takes your chance.....

 

[steve 944t]

ORIGINAL: Diver944

I'm not 100% sure, but I am pretty confident it's Steve Glasgow who has the KW's without reindexing. He hasn't been posting recently or we could quickly find out, but I do know it's RPM that look after his car.

Did someone call? [] Absolutely correct - RPM fitted my KWs without reindexing. The rear is fractionally higher than the front, but barely noticeable (it is certainly quite a lot lower than when it was on M030). It works a treat and I am delighted with it - on road and track. I may end up reindexing at some point and also regret retaining the original front top mounts as I would like to use a more aggressive geometry setting for the track, but the current setup does work very well. However, I guess it will vary from car to car as to how much adjustment is possible without reindexing - maybe I was lucky with mine?

 

[Fen]

Or maybe it works better than standard but nowhere near as well as it should? Have you driven a re-indexed KW car to compare?

As Dave says above it is not fitted correctly if the torsion isn't reindexed because the fitter must either be taking out a spring or leaving it so little preloaded as to not raise the rear. The fitting instructions are very clear that the thinner of the 2 springs must be coil bound with the car sitting on its wheels (its job is to provide preload and extend to prevent the main spring from moving off seat when the suspension is uncompressed). Below is my car after reindexing before the KW is fitted:

This is how it sat after the job was complete (note the dark wheels are 17" and the silver are 18" which doesn't help the comparison, but they're all I have):

I hope it illustrates that the car rose a good 3/4 inch when the KW was fitted and properly adjusted. The spring plates might give you enough to compensate if you're really lucky as they theoretically have 40mm adjustment, but the problem is that they are to allow the factory to set the height exactly after the torsions are fitted and there is no saying where on the 40mm adjustment range you'll find your car already sits. Statistically you could argue you have 20mm to play with, but you can't depend on even that amount.

Lastly a Brucie Bonus as I just spotted the pic, my S2 with 968CS springs and the rear lowered on the spring plates to match:

I posted that because we spoke about just this setup a few pages ago and it also shows what the rear looked like when a lot of the spring plate adjustment was used up - it was 2000 so I don't recall how much lower it might have been able to go, but I doubt it was much.

 

[TTM]

ORIGINAL: mike220
Am I right in thinking S2 suspension and Turbo suspension are the same ? (don't shoot me if it's not lol)

They are not 100% similar, designers played with front spring diameter & stiffness, torsion bar & ARB size and shock rate throughout the years.

ORIGINAL: mike220
I understand KW V3 is the pinnacle to aim for, but I doubt I'll be tracking the car, and the suspension budget just doesn't cover that cost.

Well, the KW make much sense for road use too, as they do allow for a proper "modern" damping which original shocks are not capable of. Scott (sawood12) was in the same boat as you some time ago and eventually went for the KW.
The cheapest way to both refresh & upgrade original tired suspension is probably to fit Koni inserts at the front and the equivalent rear shocks, though quality seems rather inconsistent as I saw some of those leaking after about 6k miles and a couple of track days.

 

[Peter Empson]

When JZ fitted my original Leda setup they didn't need to reindex the rear, it was already a bit saggy and the coil overs bought it back up a bit. The car still sat lower than standard when it was fitted (although nothing like as low as it is now).

 

[mike220]

Thanks TTM for the reply.

So I'm right in thinking, the Koni inserts discussed here can be used in mine, with say 968CS springs and re-bush my ARB's so they're fresh ? I that the cheapest half decent option to go for ? I understand the KW's are what I SHOULD be buying, but the budget just doesn't run that far I'm afraid. Surely any leaky units within 12 months would be getting returned anyway ? (they would by me lol)

Cheers, appreciate the info,

Mike

 

[Fen]

While Thom was crrect in that Turbos and S2s had diffrent suspension in detail,m all the mounts are the same so it is interchangeable and a Turbo kit would fit an S2. That's for '87 on Turbos, the earlier ones had the pre-ABS cars' geometry and they had different suspension components.

A cheap refresh for a road driven car to make it as it was when it was new (within reason) is as you describe, plus probably castor mounts, maybe top mounts and/or wishbone bushes.

 

[mike220]

Knew there was something I'd forgot to put on there - yes adjustable top mounts and castor bushes ! Cheers Fen

You've got it, I just need a cost effective refresh as the original stuff is shot. Should be able to get a reasonable setup with this list then ? :

Koni inserts and rears (best place to buy ?)
968 CS springs (dealer I assume given the prices listed above)
ARB bushes - can I use 968 CS ones ? or are they different ? If so I'll get powerflex ones
Top mounts - which one's as I've seen a few mostly from the states tho (best place to buy ?)
Castor mounts (best place to buy ?)

Thanks in advance guys, and sorry to the OP for the slight thread hijack lol - I'll skulk off into the dark again in a bit (to order my parts [8D])

Regards,

Mike

 

[TTM]

ORIGINAL: mike220
So I'm right in thinking, the Koni inserts discussed here can be used in mine, with say 968CS springs and re-bush my ARB's so they're fresh

As far as I know Koni inserts will work with any original sealed front strut. By the way, earlier struts (eg 924 turbo) came with replaceable inserts screwed from the top of the strut and allow for the use Bilstein B6 inserts, which I personally rate higher than Koni inserts. If you can find some of these struts used, you may want to consider those Bilstein as they are priced about the same as Koni inserts.
If your '88 still has its original struts then 968 CS springs won't fit as they are of a smaller diameter and won't seat properly on the struts, however aftermarket springs such as H&R are available in either diameter.

PS : Fen, I won't be asking if you will be shipping your car to NZ, but when ...

 

[steve 944t]

ORIGINAL: Fen

Or maybe it works better than standard but nowhere near as well as it should? Have you driven a re-indexed KW car to compare?

no I haven't and perhaps I should! It would be nice to think there is more improvement to come by reindexing. Perhaps that is another job to add to the winter upgrades [].
Below is a picture of my car with the KW fitted. The rear is not excessively high but is certainly not as low as Fen's. I am still running 16" wheels of course, which do not fill the arches so much.

 

[Hilux]

You will need to lower the rear (re-index the torsion bar)

Here`s mine at the front compared to a standard car

By the way...

Hello Fen, glad to see you`re back and contributing again.

To all considering KW, try a car with it first (Thanks Fen []) You`ll then not go down another route especially if you truly intend to keep the car for a long period.

In all the years I have been messing about with and building and re-building cars I have learned that the best way of avoiding the disappointment and expense of experimenting with parts and potential upgrades is to listen to the many and varied voices on specialist forums such as ours, especially when in unison a product is praised above others.......Its a no brainer in my opinion for do not lose sight that its not just the track where VWK3 is good because it is primarily a true revelation on the road, absolutely chalk and cheese to standard or mildly modified suspension and totally transforms an already capable car.

PS: I`ve re-built a VX red top Westfield and tracked it and they are superb cars. Forget the Pinto (boat anchor) engined cars but around £8000 will see you in 200bhp VX redtop territory and a bit more will see 250 bhp Duratec`s both of which can weigh some 650 kg so they are blisteringly fast but the aerodynamics let them down, great on twisty tracks and everyone should own one as there is nothing (and I mean nothing) like the experience and fun factor apart possibly from a motor bike.

Caterin vans are over rated, overly expensive and the factory built ones have a reputation for poor quality and shoddy work. Many a Westy will thrash the pants off a catering van [8D]

Most seven type car owners only have them for on average 18 months as they are great fun at first, but people soon realise they are not child friendly, not wife or girlfriend friendly, without intercomms you`re on your own with a passenger on long journeys and if you hate the wet or cold then they are not for you as to drive one with the hood up is downright dangerous (and only wimps do it [])

 

[Neil Haughey]

Just to add weight. I have a koni setup with 27mm torsion bars and special H&R front springs etc. You may expect me to be very pro the setup I have but in actual fact I always say to ppl don't waste your time and money going down this route. Anything that involves pulling apart the rear suspension involves possibly a hell of a lot of time and money, so much in fact that the £1300 for the KW kit looks cheap. If you don't want to pull apart the rear suspension I would do the following;

S2: Koni rear shocks, koni front inserts, 968 M030 ARB set, 968 caster mounts and nothing else other then perhaps new standard mounts, bolts etc. (always replace your nuts and bolts when fitting new shocks IMHO).

turbo: probably nothing other then new stock suspension or perhaps at a push koni shocks.

After driving Trefs pre ABS turbo the big impression I am left with is that the ARB set is much stiffer then on an S2, in particular on the back (the specs say 2mm thicker almost the same as 968 M030 on bottom setting). Additionaly the rear shocks feel much more effective whereas standard S2 rear shocks are utterly useless, I know, I bought a new set several years back and then took them of 6 months later because they are just waaaayyy to soft.

 

[Fen]

That's a good analysis of the difference between a Turbo and an S2 chassis - the Turbo always feels much "flatter" which is almost certainly largely the ARBs.

Mike220 - careful with top mounts. If you use standard struts and aftermarket top mounts you might find you raise the front of the car 2". Look at the top mounts you have now and you'll see that the strut top sits through the inner wing a couple of inches into the cup formed by the top mount. Most aftermarket adjustable ones are flat, so you need to have height adjustment in the strut to compensate and get the ride height back to standard, plus some more if you want to lower it. Unfortunately standard top mounts are expensive, but I think there are alternatives to suit the standard strut available.

Thom - while you can fit a 924 strut to a later 944 it doesn't fit properly as it's designed for a car with pre-ABS geometry. On that basis I'm not sure I'd recommend it unless the car is a pre '87 Turbo (or Lux).

 

[Big Dave]

Just out of interest...
For those who ARE contemplating fitting the Kw stuff, AND will be lowering the rear [ doin it properly ]. Its a good time to uprate the Tbars to 968 ones, They are thicker than S2 / Turbo units...
Just ask PJS 917, hes fitted a pair into his S2 with KW.. its a REALY GOOD drive...
The 944S2/turbo KW stuff IS exactly the same spring rates / valving as the 968 units...
So it doesnt unbalance the car at all...
AND.
It just so happens i have a spare pair of 968 Torsion bars... available....
This is in no way an advert for my T bars....Just trying to help out some of you chaps with , [ insider knowledge]....

 

[Fen]

I thought he was taking the torsions out altogether and running bigger springs on the KWs - did that not work out, or was that someone else?

 

[Big Dave]

I think that was somebody else..

 

[Fen]

ORIGINAL: TTM

PS : Fen, I won't be asking if you will be shipping your car to NZ, but when ...

Actually I'd much, much, much rather sell it.

 

[RC18B 911 turbo]

ORIGINAL: Fen

ORIGINAL: TTM

PS : Fen, I won't be asking if you will be shipping your car to NZ, but when ...

Actually I'd much, much, much rather sell it.

How much you want for it then?