Neil Haughey
New member
Not at all, nothing like as taxing as driving a real car.
The 2012 PCGB Club Championship
- Thread starter paulf968
- Start date
The fact are that in 2011 several drivers were very equal in their 968's - a few tenths between lap times and different results each week. In 2012 some added some weight and went to class 2 with the same cars - their slightly slower times during the season providing a good clue as to the difference in lap times that weight made and enabling a reasonable calculation to be made about the effect a specific amount of weight had on lap times . Some still raced their 968's in class 1 and some changed to Boxsters and 996's. Those that stayed with 968's lapped about the same (except for Silverstone due to track improvements) - those that changed to Boxsters were slightly slower most of the year but by the end of the season about on parr - while those that changed to a 996 were quicker by between around 1 and 2 seconds at all the tracks despite the model being in its first season for all the teams involved and therefore the least developed. That just does not make any sense and is entirely devoid of any counter arguments - it is the absolute facts. Yes it is an impossible task to get it spot on and I would defend anyone who tries hard to get it right first time (and fails) - but then accepts the mistake and does something about it. The situation we are in however is that we have no idea how that mistake was made - no idea if it will be corrected, no idea how those corrections may be worked out or how a new model may be weighted - no idea when we will find out what the changes may be for next season and are completely unable to plan what we may do for 2013 until it could be too late - by which time - if past performance is anything to go by - those lucky enough to guess which model will be best advantaged will run away with the Championships while everyone else chases an impossible target. Just not good enough! Barry Hart
paulf968
New member
By way of information and in the hope that it does not offend the PCGB, I note that Britcar have made some steps to promote their new series next year. Sort of goes head to head with our own Club Championship. see promo page here: http://www.britcar24hr.co.uk/newsletter/WebsiteUploads/2013/ProductionSportsPromo1sm.pdf see draft Regs here: http://www.britcar24hr.co.uk/newsletter/WebsiteUploads/2013/BritcarProductionSportscarRegulations-PROVISIONAL-111012.pdf Those of you with an interest will note the fixed power to weight ratio within each class, no differentiation there between models.
thegoose
New member
When was this launched Paul? I was looking at what other series our cars may be suitable for a few weeks ago and the Britcar offering at the time wasn't suitable. This however looks really good in prospect - imagine how much quicker we'd be 200kgs lighter and on slick tyres (not to mention solid bushed suspension, shorter final drive ratio, lower ride height etc)! Although I bet there's a lot of well developed competitive eligible cars out there already, whereas it'd be like starting again to get the most out of any of our cars within those regs. I don't yet know what I'm doing next year yet but I'm certainly keen to see how that series goes, and indeed if any Club Championship cars moonlight in it, such as Messrs Morris & Eacock did in Future Classics this year.
paulf968
New member
not sure when this stuff was issued, saw a thread on PH this evening .... there was verbal notice of the series when we raced at Silverstone in September. Good spot on the final drive ratios & free gearbox bit ....... modding that could get pricey in a Porsche but with lots of benefits! NOTE the Britcar weights are at the end of the race WITHOUT the driver. This eliminates the problems that could arise with 2 driver cars of different weight. ie Stops a very light driver and car doing most of the race with a driver change to your 'weighty' best mate to pass the post-race scrute.
You calling me fat ? Munster 33 !
Neil Haughey
New member
Paul keep one of your 968s and run it in that, 2x40 min races + 30 min quali in one day will properly test a drivers endurance. I don't think I could manage that, certainly not on Dunlop slicks.
Neil Haughey
New member
Honestly it looks like an oversight. Nobody should want to see shenanigans like in single seaters where gear selection for each track becomes yet another complication. Can also put mahoosive Dunlops on the car which is interesting, fancy 260 wide slicks all round on your 968? http://www.hptyres.co.uk/circuit.htm The most interesting thing is they specify that the 5% is not just peak power but both power and torque against the production cars curves. That one has been a significant oversight in the PCGB Championship regs for many years.
Yes - good spot - that power AND torque limit is good (and indicates some much needed understanding of the subject - a great move - but also I think does nothing about the fact that bigger engines have proportionally more torque - although I have not read the regs in detail yet). I also think it would be a great idea if all cars carried a data logger connected to a GPS system - downloadable by the scrutineers on request - as that is the only way I can think of to find any cheats that could run dual ECU programs in their cars to boost power while out racing - that switch off automatically (or manually) on demand - that I have been informed about and that they are otherwise undetectable. I don't know any more than that at the moment but at least this would provide enough information to prove several issues like slowing down under flags as well etc. That Britcar series sounds like the way forward to me. Baz
Neil Haughey
New member
Have fun tonight guys, I expect the brummie lot to have a mega session [
]. Here are those 2 laps for you all to enjoy (or not might be just curious): http://s267.beta.photobucket.com/user/NeilHaughey/media/Porsche%20Simulation/ArenaGP_boxster_227_5.mp4.html http://s267.beta.photobucket.com/user/NeilHaughey/media/Porsche%20Simulation/ArenaGP_996_225_7.mp4.html The sound and picture quality is a bit rubbish due to the upload compression. Its a more shame for the sound as you can't really here if I am on full throttle or not and can barely make out the occasional quick adjustment. The steering wheel only moves about 1/3 or so as much as the my actual wheel, never managed to satisfactorily correct that bit. Also watch carefully to spot the very deliberate differences between the driving approach to the 2 cars. As I got better with each model I got more time out of the boxster model by driving and setting it up more like a momentum car, whereas with the 996 model it was more about exploiting the amazing corner exit grunt and hence by extension driving and setting up the car that way. On the 996 lap I do run wide on the loop but OTOH if one notes the steering wheel position you can see I nailed a 4 wheel drift on the exit of several corners which is why its my quickest lap thus far with that model. For sure though I could do 2:27.5 in it. Maximum speeds on the Hangar straight are 133 mph in the boxster model and 138 in the 996. Corner speeds in that 2:27.5 lap of the boxster are way high, never lower than 90 in Copse for example which for me is a roundabout way of saying its fantasy to think a 986S at this weight and power will ever get anywhere near the low 2:26's available in the 996.
]. Here are those 2 laps for you all to enjoy (or not might be just curious): http://s267.beta.photobucket.com/user/NeilHaughey/media/Porsche%20Simulation/ArenaGP_boxster_227_5.mp4.html http://s267.beta.photobucket.com/user/NeilHaughey/media/Porsche%20Simulation/ArenaGP_996_225_7.mp4.html The sound and picture quality is a bit rubbish due to the upload compression. Its a more shame for the sound as you can't really here if I am on full throttle or not and can barely make out the occasional quick adjustment. The steering wheel only moves about 1/3 or so as much as the my actual wheel, never managed to satisfactorily correct that bit. Also watch carefully to spot the very deliberate differences between the driving approach to the 2 cars. As I got better with each model I got more time out of the boxster model by driving and setting it up more like a momentum car, whereas with the 996 model it was more about exploiting the amazing corner exit grunt and hence by extension driving and setting up the car that way. On the 996 lap I do run wide on the loop but OTOH if one notes the steering wheel position you can see I nailed a 4 wheel drift on the exit of several corners which is why its my quickest lap thus far with that model. For sure though I could do 2:27.5 in it. Maximum speeds on the Hangar straight are 133 mph in the boxster model and 138 in the 996. Corner speeds in that 2:27.5 lap of the boxster are way high, never lower than 90 in Copse for example which for me is a roundabout way of saying its fantasy to think a 986S at this weight and power will ever get anywhere near the low 2:26's available in the 996.That's brilliant work Neil - well done - and yes your higher corner speed combimed with a slower lap time shows up the lower acceleration of the Boxser compared to the 996 due to it's lower torque at sub 5K revs out of corners etc. You maximum speeds are also very close to what actaully transpired in the race itself between the 2 models. However there is quite a difference in completing a lap without hinderance and competing it against another car. I think most people do not realise that cars don't need to be exactly equal in power or weight to be fair on the track because it actually takes a lot of difference between them to pass someone on the racing line - so if the power to weight calculations are somewhere close to right - the performances will faily reflect the different cars, teams and drivers capabilities - which I am sure we all want to see - they do not need to be spot on. So it actually takes quite a large error in the calculations and resulting weights to enable one model to clearly be fast enough to pull out from behind and pass off the line - than another - by whatever way you compare the performances. Although I did not invite any discussions about this issue at the Prize Giving (I think I have gone on about it enough) it was interesting that several drivers spoke to me about the differences - all without exception agreeing that the 993 had enough corner exit grunt to pass a Boxster and that the 996's were much too fast compared to anything else while the 968's in class 2 were also clearly too quick (and many claim they have informed the "MOTORSPORT TEAM" of their opinions). This means that - just as your simulation shows - there is a large difference which = a large error in our regulations. It is then no suprise that whoever of us analyses the situation - by whatever means - before the season started, during it or after it - comes up with almost identical results. It can be a computer programme for power to weight acceleration times, computer driven lap times or your simulation system round known circuits, power to weight ratio comparisons, visual observations by people at the trackside, track commentators or TV presenters - drivers admitting their cars are too fast or cannot compete and which models that involves - it doesn't seem to matter and the reason for that is SO SIMPLE - because the explanation is right - those cars mentioned are comparatively much too light. I know the organisers want the cars to be evenly matched and I don't blame anyone for not getting it right at the outset nor for ignoring my pre-season communications and I appreciate the attempt to do something about it mid season - but the size of the original error combined with the minimal adjustment mid-season indicates that whoever is responsible for those weights simply doesn't understand it well enough or doesn't know how to compare it accurately and therefore needs help or advice from others that do. In view of this I think it is very poor that no explanation is forthcoming, why we cannot be told how it was worked out or what the formulas are, why my offer of help is completely ignored etc, etc. It means we seem to be left entirely at the mercy of a method of working it out that has been proven to be badly flawed, by people who need help but seem unwilling or dissinterested in seeking it and get round to publishing their changes for the next season too late for many people not in the know to have time to change and build a suitable car. This doesn't inspire confidence that any changes made will be enough, that any new models introduced in the future will not be similarly unfairly weighted, or that anyone fortunate enough to find out about the changes or new models before anyone else - could not gain an unfair start. If we were splitting hairs it would be different - but it is obvious to everyone, clear and unequivecal that there are substantial changes to some cars needed to make the series as fair as the principle behind the series claims to run it on. It does not need to be spot on but it does need to be a lot closer than it has been before - and since it has proven possible to acurately calculate the right weights and performance differences before the cars even competed together and over a year ago - why this takes so long to work out now and publish - I have no idea - except that it doesn't help most of the competitors. Finally - if sufficient changes are going to be made - another plea not to simply penalise everyone whos cars DID perform fairly together by expecting them to incure huge cost to lower their weights down - please just add weight to the cars clearly needing it for now - until everyone is satisfied that they are reasonably fair and then - if you have to - use that balance between them to reduce the weights all round in the future (to enable newer more powerful examples to come in without carrying excessive weights). Baz (apparently now A.K.A - "the rottweiller"!
Interesting comparison between Britcar power to weights and PCGB Championship. 1st They drop the unnecessary gearbox loss adjustment (which is anyway insignificant) - good idea much simpler. 2nd They do not include driver weight (Sorry Pete, Alex and Mark P!) – for which I have allowed 100 kilos (or 15.7 stones) to compare equally. 3rd They use the same power to weight ratios for all models (including Audi, BMW, Lotus, Nissan, Mercedes, Mitsubishi etc) now it would not be if you included the driver buty is very similar to PO. supporting my theory that a straight line graph is acceptable. Sorry the chart does not print in line as the editing or posting page shows it - I will try and correct it by editing. That didn't work so now I will wait to re-post and scan the page and resubmit it. PCGB - PCGB BRITCAR Driver PCGB PCGB BRITCAR BRITCAR PCGB Weight Weight K New Weight Model Power Weight Ratio Weight Ratio Diff 100 Ratio Diff 968 240 1056 4.4 1240 5.2 184 1140 4.8 84 993 281 1236 4.4 1345 4.8 109 1245 4.4 9 BoxsterS 261 1148 4.4 1330 5.1 182 1230 4.7 82 996 300 1320 4.4 1420 4.7 100 1320 4.4 0 Driver Weight 100 The chart above shows that the result is almost an identical weight for the 993 and 996 between both series - but that a 968 and Boxster S should be 84 and 82 kilos lighter (almost identical to the figures I have calculated all season that should be added to those models for equality (although I think a 993 has been a little more harshly treated in Britcar than it should be and no 964 figures for comparison). Britcar also will use a DL1 Powerlogger to establish and compare power outputs (working in exactly the same way as I used our on-car road dyno software to compare performances against weights before the season started and would have come up with the same power to weight results as them if I had – which has since been confirmed by almost any other system I have come across to compare results – and that the performance comparisons at Silverstone I managed to make between all the cars also supported. Perhaps readers are now beginning to realise that my postings on this subject are not the rantings of mad or bad loser but the genuinely accurate analysis of performances leading to recognising that a huge mistake was made that has been grossly unfair to the majority of competitors all season – and simply trying to get it changed and fair for everyone in future. Baz
Hopefully this is better sorry the page is too large - I cannot work out why just now but you can click on the thumbnail to get a better version of that. It's a shame really because the chart is extremely interesting - if you can see it as I hoped you could. I am happy to E-mail the A4 page to anyone wanting a better version.
We are reviewing how we might continue racing next season and I would be very interested to hear from anyone who has rented a race car - what sort of costs they incurred and what deals they were offered - what the terms were (insurance etc), what track support they got and who the cheapest insurers were. Any assistance much appreciated and if you want to keep it away from the public please send to my E-mail address. Many thanks guys, Baz
Neil Haughey
New member
Its certainly a very different set of numbers they come up with. I am also running my 2 car models round Brands and Oulton to see if the 996 is still faster or not and if so by how much, or it could even turn out to be slower round Brands I don't know but want to see what I find.
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