The rules. Sorry - it's a long one!

[Mark_Bennett]

If we allow free advertising here, why would any any of our paying advertisers bother to pay?
Without paying advertisers Porsche Post would probably be half a dozen pages - photocopied.

 

[Fen]

I agree with Mark and the no advertising rule.

I know where to find adverts if I need them and I don't particularly appreciate having them forced on me if I don't (and before you say "don't read them then" I read every single posting on the 944 forum at the moment and I'd like to keep doing that).

Titanic is an interesting case in point. As Paul said it is basically unmoderated. What we find is that although several Porsche-related business use the facility only one supplier uses it to spam the list with a regular newsletter (as an attachment in HTML - a non-no on two counts on an email list in my understanding). For a time that resulted in that supplier gaining what I personally believe to be a reputation beyond what they deserve and that undoubtedly resulted in increased sales for them. Recently there seems to be a bit of a backlash against it, although it still happens every month. I know it gets up the nose of several people, me included.

If every supplier were to do the same then I think Titanic would either die or have to ban advertising to survive, hence I think the rule here is valid especially as this forum is easier to find and carries with it the perception of Porsche approval thorugh being part of the official club. I doubt I would be so keen to stay subscribed to Titanic if I received tens of HTML newsletters every month rather than one and those on dial-up (they still exist) must be spitting chips every time they download it. Similarly I'd soon get bored of this place if there were screeds of unsolicited advertising postings constantly.

A half-way house is sponsorship (though not the kind that seems to buy editorial control like Rennlist), possibly paing for a vendor area within the forum in the name of each sponsor like SEATCupraNet does, or banners like many other forums do.

 

[Guest]

I'm starting to feel like a kid. "Why do i have to eat my veg?" "'Cos i say so, them's the rules!" That's three times i've been told that!!
"Them's the rules" is not an answer. I was asking WHY? Why can't people sell their stuff?
I've realised now though that it's a capitilist thing, someone isn't getting their slice of the pie and so a ban on anyone selling anything is imposed. It seems the decade these cars are from has rubbed of onto a few people. The decade of greed and bull**** rules.

I work in a very famous Paintshop and will offer advice to anyone who asks for it. I can also supply people with spraycans, pens etc the exact colour they need to do repairs on their car, and i can offer these at the price we pay to get it in. So I wouldn't make a penny, i'd just be helping pals out. But i'm NOT allowed to offer this service because "Them's the rules"? But if i was to pay for a little advert and then charge people £25 a can that would be cool because the Thatcherites are getting their slice.
I don't mean to get at the moderators, but the rules surely need revising somewhat. And i don't like having to eat my greens, "Because i say so, that's why"

Can someone recomend another 944 forum? It's a bit stuffy in here.

 

[carlmthompson]

I think he's got a point.

And at the risk of being attacked myself, this appears to be directed at one trader by some of the more mature people on this forum who should know better. I've witnessed pretty personal attacks on this trader for a number of months, and non of this has been moderated. I've deliberately kept out of it, because I think "it's not my business", but hell it is - I'm a member too.

I personally am grown up enough to judge wether to go for a particular product or not, and will research any purchase before shelling out.
I think in a world of healthy competition, I would rather the traders battle it out on here for my business - if I ask for exhaust possiblities, I want to here what there is and what it costs - if I save some money from this process, then great - hopefully I'll also get recomendations from some of the more seasoned members on here who give "independent" advice.

Despite not buying anything form either, I've received free advice on here from Jon and Andrew, and both of it was good - but one of them seems to get a fair deal by the members on here, and one does not. I'll leave it to you to decide who........

Oh, and incase you say "well where do you draw the line", I say at blatent advertising that isn't in response to a direct question. Otherwise it's all helpfull in the decision making process.

 

[sawood12]

I think we are all grown up enough to judge whether or not to go for a particular product but when you are after impartial advice free from commercial influences then where can you go? For me this forum is the only truly impartial forum I feel I can goto to put my silly questions out there. I know a couple of trusted specialists but I usually want to educate myself before going to seek proffessional advice so I can feel I can understand what the specialist is telling me, and discuss any implications or options in an educated way or even to test the specialists diagnosis to give me the confidence they have really explored every avenue and not just given me the easy answer. There is a danger that people who run business on this forum might not necessarily be giving you 100% impartial advice - I don't mean they are delibirately giving you duff advice, but they might not be telling you the whole story or giving you all the options.

Very few individuals on this forum are experts but our collective knowledge and experience is vast and pretty comprehensive and I for one would like to protect that. I don't think this is being stuffy - far from it, impartial advice from various specialists on this forum is often welcomed and taken as gospel - however I for one don't need the hard sell being stuffed down my throat when I have a problem with my car and am just after the benefit of others advice and experience.

 

[Fen]

Well I guess the bottom line is as Mark said; if people get to advertise for free on the PCGB forum then they will be less inclined to pay for advertising in the PCGB magazine.

PCGB pay for the upkeep of this forum and it's up to them how it's used by traders and rightly or wrongly advertising is banned. At the end of the day TV and radio stations don't let people advertise for free, neither do newspapers or magazines and I think it's pretty safe to say neither do the majority of independent web sites. If you have something that a large group of people pay attention to it's absolutely normal to charge businesses to make a sales pitch direct to those people.

In terms of the 2 traders mentioned above and how they are treated relative to one another let me clarify why I think that is the case.

One trader is a Porsche factory (not just dealer) trained technician, another is an enthusiastic amateur with no vehicle technician qualifications for any marque, never mind Porsche (like the rest of us in other words).

One trader formally gives up his time for free to speak to club members who call him on the phone while he is running his business as he is an official technical advisor to the PCGB membership, the other was not invited to be a technical advisor as he is not technically qualified.

One trader works with others to develop and engineer his own products the other sells third party products which at least until very recently were completely untested.

There are several stories that some of you may not be aware of that are told by people you might well meet if you spend time in the company of "some of the more mature people who should know better" (which you are all welcome to do - the Ace Cafe tomorrow evening is a good opportunity and I am more than happy to chat to any of you there) that might make you think differently about certain people and the way they are treated.

 

[pauljmcnulty]

And at the risk of being attacked myself, this appears to be directed at one trader by some of the more mature people on this forum who should know better

Consider yourself attacked, Carl!

Seriously, this is not actually aimed so much at any of the three traders who've been moderated recently, but brought more by the people who don't abuse the forum and think it's unfair. I agree with you, but there can't be two sets of standards so one has to be enforced. Preferably voluntarily....

Or, why not ask the administrators to change the rules? This option is open to anyone.

 

[John Sims]

ORIGINAL: Darren

......"Them's the rules" is not an answer. I was asking WHY? Why can't people sell their stuff?.......

With due respects Darren, if you read my answer to your post, I gave you a possible reason why people can't sell their "stuff". I think others, more qualified than myself, have given further reasons.

If people behave like children, they will be treated as such - this isn't aimed at you before you pick up the wrong end of the stick.

 

[Guest]

Sorry but i haven't heard a single good reason why this ban is impossed. The two reasons people come up with are basically, them's the rules (FFS!), and it's to protect us because we are all too stupid to make our own minds up and always believe the first thing anyone tells us.
What if there was some kid making T-shirts, really cool ones that you just had to have and he was selling them for half the price you'd seen anywhere else. But he can't tell us about them because them's the rules.
Or there was a tyre supplier who could supply a miracle new tyre, more grip, more MPG, longer life, just £10 each!! But we need protecting from ourselves because we really are that stupid.

I've only been on this site a short while and have so far found it brilliant, if not a little quiet. Friendly, informative, really nice people and it's a pleasure coming here. But if i've a question about interior trim, i want to hear from a car trimmer. Likewise with tyres, exhausts etc. I also want to hear of any new products available for my 944, and if anyone is selling stickers, t-shirts, accessories etc then i'd like to know about that too. I'm sure it would breathe more life into the forum, make it a lot more interesting and varied, bring in new members and with them, the big business' and their advertising money, which let's face it, is what the powers that be really want.
Now wouldn't that make us all winners and it would be better than reading the usual hum drum topics like "How do i fix my window wipers?"

 

[Fen]

ORIGINAL: Darren

Sorry but i haven't heard a single good reason why this ban is impossed.

If that's the case then it's because you don't want to hear it. The only reason you need to hear is that the Club charge for advertising in the paper magazine and they feel revenue from that would be reduced if they allowed free advertising on the web forum. That's the only reason you need to hear because not only does it come from the people who run the Club, but it also makes perfect sense.

I happen to disagree about advertising in the forum as I don't want to read it, though something could be done with sponsorship and a separate area for people to post their ads so they don't get mixed in with the normal posts and I'd support that.

If you want to know about upholstery then ask and someone will tell you to talk to Southbound or the chap who's name escapes me in Sparkford. There have been any number of threads about exhausts and tyres where people have given their recommendation about what to buy and where to buy it, and because those people have nothing to gain from making a recommendation then in my eyes it carries a lot more weight than an exhaust vendor telling you how good his product is when he has a vested interest in selling one to you. You can't get better recommendation than word of mouth and that's what you will get on here if you ask about anything you can think of, even nothing to do with your 944.

If you want to see a load of ads from people who sell bits for Porsches then pick up 911 & Porsche World next time you're near a big newsagent; the Club are legally bound not to accept ads for certain products* under their agreement with Porsche Cars AG, so you'll never get the full picture on here even if advertising is opened up.


*none that are aimed at 944 owners, granted.

 

[John Sims]

ORIGINAL: Darren

.......What if there was some kid making T-shirts, really cool ones that you just had to have .......

That is so never going to happen. []

 

[Guest]

Whatever, i just SO can't be arsed anymore.

But does anyone know of any other 944 forums? And i don't want to hear from any moderators with vested interests, after all, them's the rules.

 

[Fen]

You could use Rennlist where advertising is allowed by sponsors only and it seems to buy editorial control, hence I don't post there as there is no point in a forum if vendors can have negative comments removed. You could also use the 944 area of 968UK where advertising is banned because the forum is run by a vendor. You could join Titanic, but it's a mailing list rather than a forum. Lastly there's Porsche-1, Stuttgart 9's etc. which I don't use so I can't comment on 944 content nor advertising policy.

I guess it depends what you want. Titanic is the only place you'll get anything like the level of knowledge you get here without dozens of American BS merchants, but that's because it's mostly the same people as here who still use it because it was the first resource we had.

I really don't see what the attitude is for though - the reason for the rules have been explained, as has your entitlement to petition to have them changed if you think things could be done better. I really don't know what else you can reasonably expect; nothing is going to change because one non PCGB member who has been using the forum for 6 or 7 weeks doesn't like it, especially when I'd say at best half the people don't agree with you.

I'd urge you to stay and if you feel strongly try to get things changed through the proper channels or otherwise just respect other people's opinions and live with it. Ultimately you know where the "door" is though; your call.

 

[NicD]

Guys,

if you want the rule on advertising loosened slightly, could be done.

Perhaps moderators could give some thought to precise dos and donts, but has to be for the benefit of the membership

and the same for all Forums

 

[AndrewS]

Hi Darren,

I can appreciate your frustration.

I personally feel that forum sponsorship could be an option and it would be useful additional revenue to the club. It would also encourage those specialists that want to take the time; to assist members here.

Also, being a paying advertiser (for the magazine) could possibly qualify specialists to use the forums (again, within reason) - not to blatantly advertise - but to address a particular members concern with a solution. Example: 'my exhaust is blowing, what are my options?' - Specialist answer: 'You can fit the OEM rear silencer assembly at £???, the HamSpeed Cat Back at £??? or the Bunsk at ???' (to moderator: I'm just trying to demonstrate a point). I'm sure this is the point you are trying to make.

I also don't believe the moderating here is consistent. Carl made a valid point and it's a sad fact where one has to be very careful to omit numerous words for fear of being moderated. In my view, moderators should not be club members or register secretaries (as they take the whole situation emotionally and personally, resulting in favouring one situation over another). If the PCGB wants to moderate forums, there could be an approved consistent 'moderator panel' for all forums. Inconsistent moderating here has been a problem. I have had to raise complaints to the club on two separate occasions because of a certain moderators conduct both publicly and privately. It should not be personal - but it is.

The business I represent (everybody knows who it is - but if I mention the name the post will be deleted) has since pulled all advertising with PCGB (the money is better spent with 911PW and GTP). One of the reasons for the withdrawal were posts being over zealously deleted and moderated here - especially when compared to others that have got away with it. I can not even use my web address in my signature - but others appear to be able to.

The final point is the personal vendetta that some individuals on this forum wage against specific individuals and their businesses. It is quite unreasonable that it is allowed by the moderators. I do not believe it would be tolerated on other forums. Somehow, that is quite acceptable here.

Darren, don't worry - there are other forums. I'll let you know privately what they are.

Regards,
Andrew

 

[Guest]

I thought the whole point of this forum was that it is a discussion forum for 944 owners/PCGB members, as as such it works very well.
If you want advertising go search the web or look in all the publications etc as Fen suggests.
If you don't like it don't join!
I do think Andrew has a very strong point regarding his web address in his signature though. That should be consistent. Many contributors put a web address there, either business or private. If people then want to look at their site to find out what it's all about, as I have done, then fine. If not, don't click.
Maybe that could be an acceptable form of advertising on here?

 

[Riverside]

ORIGINAL: Darren

Whatever, i just SO can't be arsed anymore.

But does anyone know of any other 944 forums? And i don't want to hear from any moderators with vested interests, after all, them's the rules.

This forum is useful in combination with other information sources to get the full picture Darren, to allow you to make up your own mind about what to buy & where to buy from. A discussion several months ago (which has since been removed from here but parts can still be seen on Titanic) prompted me to go find out the other half of the picture for myself at an open day, the upshot of which is that Promax got some business out of me this year that I found useful (I use other companies too), while PCGB didn't get my money this year (nor did TIPEC).

As a non-member I don't feel I am entitled to an opinion on how this board is run, if I were paying I certainly would have a few things to say though.

 

[John Sims]

ORIGINAL: Darren

Whatever, i just SO can't be arsed anymore.

But does anyone know of any other 944 forums? And i don't want to hear from any moderators with vested interests, after all, them's the rules.

Well I, for one, would miss your in put. There is nothing like someone who leads with his chin to liven up a forum. []

As Fen has suggested, you could try Rennlist. I would be careful though. Rennlist is full of Americans and they tend not to be as courteous as us Brits. Have fun.

Hi Nic,

While I wouldn't want to see the "no advertising" rule dropped completely I agree that there is perhaps some middle ground:-

Signatures containing business references, web addresses, etc.
A lot of people do already and, while I might have politely suggested they may wish to review their standpoint, I have never pulled anyone on the strength of a signature. (IIRC). This can be more informative to other readers as they can then see what direction the poster is coming from.

Pricing Information
As Andrew has suggested - I don't have an issue with a supplier providing their price along with alternative suppliers in answer to a direct question; or stating their perceived product advantage compared to others. Nobody would be foolish enough to misquote alternative figures as they would be quickly found out and made to look stupid. It also opens up debate - which is what the forum is for after all.

Unsolicited Adverts, Spamming, News Letters etc
No!

T Shirts
Under no circumstances. []

 

[pauljmcnulty]

The business I represent (everybody knows who it is - but if I mention the name the post will be deleted) has since pulled all advertising with PCGB (the money is better spent with 911PW and GTP). One of the reasons for the withdrawal were posts being over zealously deleted and moderated here - especially when compared to others that have got away with it. I can not even use my web address in my signature - but others appear to be able to.

The final point is the personal vendetta that some individuals on this forum wage against specific individuals and their businesses. It is quite unreasonable that it is allowed by the moderators. I do not believe it would be tolerated on other forums. Somehow, that is quite acceptable here.

Darren, don't worry - there are other forums. I'll let you know privately what they are.

Regards,
Andrew


_____________________________

Andrew Sweetenham
1991 Porsche 944 Turbo
andrew@promaxmotorsport.com
Skype: Andrew_Sweetenham
PCGB Member 23533

Andrew, I think you've been slightly misleading here in that your company name is actually in your signature. []

For those who don't know it's the e-mail address with the first name taken off!

I'm very happy for the Promax name to be used, I'm sure no-one would disagree. We all welcome your input. The only problem would be if you went WAY over the limit of non-commercial posting. I believe that's only happened once since you changed your log in details? If that occassion was unfair, please bring it to the Admin's attention rather than complaining on the forum!

HTH,

 

[Diver944]

When this Club forum started back in January 2003 it was all very new to PCGB and I believe the then Directors were a little concerned with the potental for anarchy on such an open format. The forum rules were drawn up at that point and we have all clicked on an 'Accept' button when we joined. As each section was formed a Moderator had to volunteer to keep an eye on that section and I stepped forward to start the 944 forum.

In the very early days we lost Bert Gear as a regular contributor to the forum as he had a web address in his signature, and one of the Directors objected. Despite our best efforts we haven't been able to tempt him back, and this is despite Bert being the official 944 Technical Rep for as many years as I can remember (probably since the motor car was invented []). I see no reason why web addresses shouldn't be allowed in signatures - if anything it warns members about a potential 'bias' when a supplier is giving advice.

My personal view disagrees almost entirely with the commercial rules as I believe any forum should be as open and as free as possible, and in the early days I let virtually all commercial posts stand as long as they were a benefit to our members. Maybe I am just a very lax moderator but I don't think we had single instance of moderation in the 944 section for the first two years and I think it all ran very well. Saying that, if anyone had complained directly to me then I would have looked in to it for them. I agree that it's time the rules were relaxed a little, but if anyone takes advantage of this or my good nature they should be slapped severely (preferably by someone other than me as I'm only little []).

To date, I think I have personally moderated about 5 posts and whenever I do I let the person involved know why and I also copy in John and Paul my fellow Moderators. They do likewise as well, and I think I can count all of their moderations on one hand each so we are not talking about a huge clandestine Big Brother operation here.

If the general consensus of most members is that the commercial rules should be relaxed then I think they should be relaxed, a Club is for it's members anyway. However, Traders also need to realise that if they start taking commercial advantage of members then there will be an obvious backlash, and it will be done in the public domain in front of many hundreds of readers. This is a good thing for us members as it should focus the mind and keep vendors on their toes. One case of bad publicity can destroy a reputation no matter how helpful they have been beforehand [8|]

If anyone wants to use other forums then I think you'll find that most of us regulars are already on them, it's a small saddo world that we inhabit [] Long live the 944 anorak!