The rules. Sorry - it's a long one!

[John Sims]

ORIGINAL: AndrewS

.....I also don't believe the moderating here is consistent. ......... If the PCGB wants to moderate forums, there could be an approved consistent 'moderator panel' for all forums. Inconsistent moderating here has been a problem. I have had to raise complaints to the club on two separate occasions because of a certain moderators conduct both publicly and privately. It should not be personal - but it is.......

I'm not sure the club would want to pay for a full time moderator (how boring would that job be?) and, even with three moderators in this area I doubt we get to read every post - neither would we want to.

Many people do care very passionately about this forum and I don't see it as telling tales when issues are brought to my attention. Equally, I know all the moderators in the 944 area have sought instruction from forum Admin on issues we have been unsure about ourselves. At the end of the day we are only human and moderate in our spare time.

I appreciate that someone who makes a living from 944's is going to view such a forum differently to those of us which consider the forum, and Porsche ownership, as entertainment. I wouldn't want my business run down in public - but, by the same token, I don't choose to promote it publicly either.

I think Andrew (ProMax) gives great value for money, both commercially (when I have asked him to get me items from Lindsey Racing, Guru etc.) and in entertainment value on the forum. He will obviously be upset if things don't seem to be going his way. I get cheesed off if an argument doesn't go my way but, at least as far as 944's are concerned, it doesn't matter to me.

If you go through most of this forum - or the Members Only section - it may be a sad indictment but you will perhaps find the most popular threads are those in which a bit of a ruck has kicked off. Forums need people like Andrew, Darren, Fen, Tony and many others who do "pin their colours to the mast" otherwise it would be a boring place.

To get back on thread - If a more moderate approach to advertising is considered beneficial by The Club then I'm all for it. Untill such time I see no option but continue as is.

 

[Diver944]

Blimey, all three moderators were composing posts at virtually the same time - who says we are not a finely tuned machine of perfect harmony []

 

[Fen]

I don't really have a problem with URL's in signatures, but as the oldest of stagers will remember there was a big hoo-ha about them in the very early days and as a result this forum has lost a knowledgeable character who I'm sure would have otherwise been around to very quickly answer a lot of the "does part x from a 968 fit in place of part y on a 944" type questions with absolute authority.

We haven't had many occasions where people on here (by which I mean the 944 area) have gone over the score, but there have been some. A few times people have popped up with new accounts trying to sell something and that has rightly been stamped on. Otherwise we have had more established members pushing the boundary (it got to be a standing joke how many times an alignment at a certain establishment was offered, including price and contact details) and that was tolerated for quite some time although eventually it was pushed too far. I freely admit I was vocal in asking for it to be stamped out because it was all one vendor and hence they were gaining an unfair advantage over the other vendors who were sticking to the rules. Of course the other vendors could have been given carte blanche to do the same, but consider this: which channel is most pleasing to watch a good film on, Sky Movies where there are no ad breaks or Channel 4 where you are reminded fairly unsubtly to drink Belgian beer?

 

[pauljmcnulty]

ORIGINAL: Diver944

Blimey, all three moderators were composing posts at virtually the same time - who says we are not a finely tuned machine of perfect harmony []

Just when John says that even with three of us it's hard to keep track!

How do you spell irony? [&:]

 

[Guest]

Fen, you and i are just going to have to disagree and leave it at that. You hate commercial people dishing out advice and plugging latest products, whilst i think it could only be benificial to us all.

Mr. Sims, if i ever see a T-shirt that says "I hate T-Shirts" then i'm gonna buy it for you buddy.

This has been by far the most interesting thread i've read in my short time on here. Arguments for and against without any name calling, although Fen got a little close. So credit to everyone with input.

But, as aragant as it may seem, i do think i'm right on this one, the argument against just doesn't add up. Check out other websites, look at Volkszone and DDK, they're thriving. They are busy, varied, informative, addictive and are a valued addition to the scene. I may become a fully paid up member and take it as far as i can. And like the man says, it's our club, if enough of us want to change it then we can.

That's it, that's my last word, i mean it.

 

[mik_ok]

What you should do is sign up to my Agree-To-Disagree service (TM).

http://www.heyletsjustagreetodisagreeandmaybemikcouldmakesomewonga.com

It's only £50 to join up, but it's well worth it and it's the best (web based) agreeing to disagree service which is run by me.

Tell your friends.

[&:]

 

[Fen]

ORIGINAL: Darren
Arguments for and against without any name calling, although Fen got a little close.

Damn, must try harder...

 

[pauljmcnulty]

Well, having discussed this at length last night with everyone, there was a general agreement that the rules could possibly be relaxed subject to everyone being happy with the "moved goalposts". Still no free advertising at all, but a more open attitude to genuine replies to posts from people with a commercial interest.

I'm going to put a proposal together, which will need to be looked at by everyone involved, such as the admin, the Club Directors and the publishers who are responsible for advertising elsewhere.

It'll be interesting to draw a line between blatant or unsolicited advertising, and an acceptable level of commercial involvement. It may well have to rely on the goodwill of the members with a commercial interest. I'll let you know how it goes, and if and changes are possible.

Thanks for all the input. You only get a result if there is some level of arguement, especially between people who show a bit of passion. Hope this answers your worries, Darren - regardless of what you think of this forum it's actually a lot more independant than others. Please stick with us! If anyone has any ideas not already suggested here, let me know.

And, if anyone is not happy with any aspect of the Club or the froum, speak up! Within 72 hours of bringing this up there is a possibility of a genuine improvement in what has been an awkward grey area, that's not bad going for a Club the size of a supertanker!

Please raise any issues on someone else's forum, though....[]

 

[John Sims]

ORIGINAL: mik_ok

What you should do is sign up to my Agree-To-Disagree service (TM).

http://www.heyletsjustagreetodisagreeandmaybemikcouldmakesomewonga.com

It's only £50 to join up, but it's well worth it and it's the best (web based) agreeing to disagree service which is run by me.

Tell your friends.

[&:]

Sounds damn good value to me. LOL I was so tempted to press the link

 

[Guest]

From the short time I've been using this forum it has become crystal clear that certain individuals will deliberately go out of their way to piss Andrew off. It only looks like pure green eyed jealousy from where I'm sitting and these guys cant seem to handle Andrew being successful in his passion for our cars.

Do these same people not read any of the porsche publications then? I can only assume they dont because they are all littered with advertising from every vendor under the sun. I think people need to lighten up and quit the witch hunt, its getting a bit too much. Saying that, I really value the knowledge the witch hunters have to input when they are consumed with trying to belittle andrew every chance they get.

Long live free speech.

Regards,

John Daly.

 

[Fen]

I assume you at least include me if not mean me alone. As I said to Darren above, you don't know the half of it. One thing I can absolutely guarantee is that there is no jealousy involved whatsoever.

My view on vendors is that they are a good thing and I have no problem with people making a living. On that basis I start out when I learn of a new vendor with a welcoming attitude. In most cases I still feel positive about the ones I know of; for me to have a problem with someone they need to do something to cause my view to change. Clearly you don't know the reasons for the way I feel and I'm not about to go into them on here, but I can assure you I am a reasonable and balanced individual and I have genuine reasons for my views.

 

[edh]

I'd like to see a more relaxed view taken - it's good to hear vendors explain why their products are good (maybe backed up with Weltmeister RR data [] ). Knocking other products is obviously completely out. I can't see it's realistic for vendors to be expected to list alternative products/prices unless they really want to - they are then recommending other vendor's products, or by omission, potentially criticising a product, even though it may be quite unintentional.

As an alternative, maybe vendors should be encouraged to respond by private message? (don't think we have pm's on PCGB forum at the moment?)

I think it's also a good idea for vendors to discuss potential new products & sound out opinions - for example, I'd like to hear if anyone's thinking of importing that motronic breakout box that I've read about on rennlist (yes I know I could do it myself but I'm too lazy ). I think it would generate more forum traffic, & all the info on here really helps the more "technically challenged" people like myself []

Anyone stepping out of line on this forum soon gets plenty of attention from our regular posters []

 

[pauljmcnulty]

As an alternative, maybe vendors should be encouraged to respond by private message? (don't think we have pm's on PCGB forum at the moment?)

You can PM. Not something I personally like, though.

It could be open season on junk mail if it was encouraged, and it doesn't benefit the other 15,999 members!

 

[random hero]

Do traders need to advertise anyway as if someone posts saying they need a set of pads for example ,most people will reply saying that they got a good price and service from a certain trader which others will reply if they agree or not them you can make your own mind up, to me is the best form of advertising anyway. Although you cant do this on another site i go on as the money that is made from selling parts supports the site !!

 

[John Sims]

ORIGINAL: random hero

Do traders need to advertise anyway as if someone posts saying they need a set of pads for example ,most people will reply saying that they got a good price and service from a certain trader ........

This is certainly the case with Bert Gear. I don't think he advertises anywhere these days.

He was somewhat renown on Titanic for just posting a price to such questions.

Bert is obviously a very energy efficient person - which is no bad thing in these days of global warming. []

 

[DivineE]

Just to add my view to the topic I think advertisers should be allowed to Answer questions with prices...

i.e. Where can I find a brake pad sensor?

Answer - I sell brake pad sensors at £* in stock, see web site or phone no.

But I think it would be dangerous on topics such as tuning advise which is only a matter of opinion. If someone does not know better then they could be fooled into believing someone because they are a specialist. This is obviously wrong because they are obviously biased!

There are hundreds of 944 owners who care about their cars posting on this forum so if there is a good product available there should be many people who can recommend what to buy and where to get it on their own experiences. Since individual owners have nothing to gain from giving their opinion you can rest assured that they will comment on their own experiences of different suppliers.

This way if there is a difference in opinion people can voice this and debate and the individual who asked the question can make an un-biased decision.

In my 4 short years of owning and tuning 944's I have tried many suppliers some of them I have found to be very good, some of them have been terrible. Their fore when someone asks where to go with their money I tell them which suppliers I have learnt to trust and which I have learnt to avoid to hopefully save them making the same mistakes I've made. I don't gain anything from this and if they choose not to listen to my opinion I'm happy to let them learn for themselves but a forum such as this can be a very helpful way of learning from the experiences of others.

That's my opinion. Oh and that those thinking that these rules are purely in place to maximize profits to the PCGB have clearly been reading too many conspiracy theories!

Regards,

Ben

p.s. Pssst we never went to the moon but I better not say too much because the government has us under constant surveillance!!!

 

[944Turbo]

Using the T shirt analogy,
Some of us have been a round to know that someone who sold T shirts then went on to launder them as well in partnership with a person who laundered the odd T shirt in their spare time. Unfortunatley this partnership was not a success and some who sent there t-shirts to get laundered (after reccomendations and on forum promotions from the seller) had t shirst that returned in a worse state than when sent for laundering. The partnership split and those with damaged t shirst were most upset and often had to invest there own time and money with other seamstresses to get the repairs sorted.

The T shirt seller then went on and set up a shiny new partnership with some dry cleaners - they new about dry cleaning but not necesarily laundering T shirts. Much promotion followed (particularly galling for those with damaged t shirts). It seems this second attempt at laundering t shirts may be OK but some with long memories would rather trust other laundrettes with their pride and joy. they know they will return the T shirt better than when it was taken out of the drawer, never mind when it was dropped in the laundry basket.

Those who have only experienced the dry cleaners may think the T shirt seller gets a raw deal.

Tony

 

[John Sims]

Fortunately, most people with T shirts have other shirts they can wear for work otherwise they would be right up the creek.

 

[DivineE]

ORIGINAL: 944Turbo

Using the T shirt analogy,
Some of us have been a round to know that someone who sold T shirts then went on to launder them as well in partnership with a person who laundered the odd T shirt in their spare time. Unfortunatley this partnership was not a success and some who sent there t-shirts to get laundered (after reccomendations and on forum promotions from the seller) had t shirst that returned in a worse state than when sent for laundering. The partnership split and those with damaged t shirst were most upset and often had to invest there own time and money with other seamstresses to get the repairs sorted.

The T shirt seller then went on and set up a shiny new partnership with some dry cleaners - they new about dry cleaning but not necesarily laundering T shirts. Much promotion followed (particularly galling for those with damaged t shirts). It seems this second attempt at laundering t shirts may be OK but some with long memories would rather trust other laundrettes with their pride and joy. they know they will return the T shirt better than when it was taken out of the drawer, never mind when it was dropped in the laundry basket.

Those who have only experienced the dry cleaners may think the T shirt seller gets a raw deal.

Tony

Oddly enough that's about the clearest explanation through analogy I've ever seen.

Not forgetting though that the chap who's T-shirt got ruined phoned up the new company only to be told that they could launder it for him at a discounted price of twice as much as the going rate from other Launderettes! Angry customer took business elsewhere and told others.

Ben

 

[Guest]

Sir Richard B pointed out that 9 out of 10 of all "launderettes" set up by his good self had failed leaving his partners in the proverbial while he walked away smelling of fabric conditioner. That is such a common scenario that it almost carries no blame, except of course from the guy that lost his "shirt".
Moderators should think twice about blurring the boundaries any further for advertising, you guys could well find yourselves spending day and night trying to moderate some very very grey issues.
Please don`t let anyone start putting drop down screens, "pop-ups", etc in the forum they are just sooo irritating.
Nice to see so may "non-members" on here, are you really non-members or is the denomination wrong next to your name?