Neil Haughey
New member
Now with all this talk of juicy posts, I wan't to read it now! Perhaps we can take the whole spat back onto titanic. Opps sorry I didn't mean that guys!
The rules. Sorry - it's a long one!
- Thread starter pauljmcnulty
- Start date
Fen, you made several good points in your post earlier that I agree with & several that are just rambling rubbish. In the spirit of 'only trying to help' I'd like to seriously suggest you stay out of it & let people tell their stories first hand when people ask how good (or bad) a company is for your own benefit if you can't speak from personal experience. They can decide for themselves whether their own experience is relevant to the enquirer and give specific examples. Their absence of a reply might mean they realise they weren't entirely blameless (to put it diplomatically) & are keeping quiet. If they have a strong opinion they will post it, but the absence of any replies can tell a story too.
Mods, you give me a strong impression that you create awkward situations in blissful ignorance of the consequenses then fail to take responsibility for those consequenses when they happen, and that impression is the overriding reason why I still haven't decided to join PCGB. I can see that there would benefits to joining but right now the way this section (the only one that interests me) of the forum is run isn't one of them and frankly as a relative newbie to 944s doing research on my latest hobby I find this forum to be less useful than most resources because of this. It's an active forum though & I take anything written with a pinch of salt & make my own mind up so the more opinions canvassed the better the overall picture is imo.
As a brief justification for my comments in the second paragraph I'll try to be non-specific & hope you get the point:
If people are told that something 'bad' might happen their natural next question will be 'what kind of thing, can you give me examples?' If they are given the facts they can make their own mind up. With mods deleting posts and others being vague and passing on stories they've read or heard the enquirer is forced to either simply accept the decision that others have come to because there is not enough information for them to draw their own opinion, or to have to go & find out for themselves (ie the forum is of no help).
In my case I went to Promax & asked them to do some work on my car to find out for myself. For anyone who has not already made their mind up I can tell you from personal experience that Promax were friendly, professional & courtious, and exceeded my expectations for customer service. I'll also happily share that I know their (ie each individual employee) experience with 944 turbos because I asked each of them in turn before handing over the keys, and Andy & Andrew both not only know their stuff, they own & run their own 944s so while they may not be Porsche trained their opinion counts at least as highly as any other 944 enthusiast and given the number of different cars they've worked on (even the most dedicated forum member has only worked on or driven maybe a dozen different examples) imo their opinion is worth far more. Enough so that I have had the car back there for several other jobs since.
Take my first hand experience for what you think it's worth - I have had problems & they have dealt with them well, I have also accepted it when I've had a problem that was my own stupid fault.
I went through the exact same process with Zentrum in Nottingham (who are Porsche trained) and again found their customer service to be excellent. With either company I would find it very hard to believe that they had done anything other than what was best for the customer if I heard of someone having a bad experience. I used to use another company that I've seen several people speak highly of on this forum (PH in Shardlow) & I won't have them touch my current car after the trouble they caused me, but I wouldn't say 'don't use them' to anyone, I would simply say 'go in with your eyes open' because there are some things they do very well, exactly like Zentrum, Promax or any other specialist.
So I buy the odd S/H spare part from PH (I got my brake ducts from them recently), I use Zentrum for servicing & standard repairs (they replaced my clutch when I blew it up by hooning around this winter and didn't laugh too much when I asked what they thought had caused it to fail, my wife didn't laugh much either when she saw the bill), and I use Promax for improvements to the car (getting the standard brakes working well being the main one so far, I'll go to Promax rather than Zentrum if I eventually change the suspension too). There's some crossover between upgrades & servicing (like the plate lift for example) so I got quotes from both & went with Promax for refurbed calipers even though it would have been cheaper to just get the plate lift fixed with Zentrum because it got me new seals etc too & seemed the better option. (ie I made my own mind up).
You're all adults, make your own decisions based on the relative worth of other's opinions, but make sure you do it from tales of first hand experiences so you can decide for yourself. Personally I wouldn't reccomend 9xx but that's purely because they are nowhere near me so I've never been there. I read lots of good things but I wouldn't reccomend them because I have no direct experience.
I've only been seriously working on improving my driving (the reason why I bought my car) for the past couple of years but I've had several other hobbies where I need to use specialists and Promax are head & shoulders above the majority I've experienced. There might be better that I haven't tried, or that are in a different part of the country, but in no way would I describe them as 'bad'.
Mods, you give me a strong impression that you create awkward situations in blissful ignorance of the consequenses then fail to take responsibility for those consequenses when they happen, and that impression is the overriding reason why I still haven't decided to join PCGB. I can see that there would benefits to joining but right now the way this section (the only one that interests me) of the forum is run isn't one of them and frankly as a relative newbie to 944s doing research on my latest hobby I find this forum to be less useful than most resources because of this. It's an active forum though & I take anything written with a pinch of salt & make my own mind up so the more opinions canvassed the better the overall picture is imo.
As a brief justification for my comments in the second paragraph I'll try to be non-specific & hope you get the point:
If people are told that something 'bad' might happen their natural next question will be 'what kind of thing, can you give me examples?' If they are given the facts they can make their own mind up. With mods deleting posts and others being vague and passing on stories they've read or heard the enquirer is forced to either simply accept the decision that others have come to because there is not enough information for them to draw their own opinion, or to have to go & find out for themselves (ie the forum is of no help).
In my case I went to Promax & asked them to do some work on my car to find out for myself. For anyone who has not already made their mind up I can tell you from personal experience that Promax were friendly, professional & courtious, and exceeded my expectations for customer service. I'll also happily share that I know their (ie each individual employee) experience with 944 turbos because I asked each of them in turn before handing over the keys, and Andy & Andrew both not only know their stuff, they own & run their own 944s so while they may not be Porsche trained their opinion counts at least as highly as any other 944 enthusiast and given the number of different cars they've worked on (even the most dedicated forum member has only worked on or driven maybe a dozen different examples) imo their opinion is worth far more. Enough so that I have had the car back there for several other jobs since.
Take my first hand experience for what you think it's worth - I have had problems & they have dealt with them well, I have also accepted it when I've had a problem that was my own stupid fault.
I went through the exact same process with Zentrum in Nottingham (who are Porsche trained) and again found their customer service to be excellent. With either company I would find it very hard to believe that they had done anything other than what was best for the customer if I heard of someone having a bad experience. I used to use another company that I've seen several people speak highly of on this forum (PH in Shardlow) & I won't have them touch my current car after the trouble they caused me, but I wouldn't say 'don't use them' to anyone, I would simply say 'go in with your eyes open' because there are some things they do very well, exactly like Zentrum, Promax or any other specialist.
So I buy the odd S/H spare part from PH (I got my brake ducts from them recently), I use Zentrum for servicing & standard repairs (they replaced my clutch when I blew it up by hooning around this winter and didn't laugh too much when I asked what they thought had caused it to fail, my wife didn't laugh much either when she saw the bill), and I use Promax for improvements to the car (getting the standard brakes working well being the main one so far, I'll go to Promax rather than Zentrum if I eventually change the suspension too). There's some crossover between upgrades & servicing (like the plate lift for example) so I got quotes from both & went with Promax for refurbed calipers even though it would have been cheaper to just get the plate lift fixed with Zentrum because it got me new seals etc too & seemed the better option. (ie I made my own mind up).
You're all adults, make your own decisions based on the relative worth of other's opinions, but make sure you do it from tales of first hand experiences so you can decide for yourself. Personally I wouldn't reccomend 9xx but that's purely because they are nowhere near me so I've never been there. I read lots of good things but I wouldn't reccomend them because I have no direct experience.
I've only been seriously working on improving my driving (the reason why I bought my car) for the past couple of years but I've had several other hobbies where I need to use specialists and Promax are head & shoulders above the majority I've experienced. There might be better that I haven't tried, or that are in a different part of the country, but in no way would I describe them as 'bad'.
Hilux
New member
Its not a stance Fen. Simply observation and intrigue.
Contributors/suppliers who are recommended by some and used by many are criticised without explanation. How? Why? On other forums I am a member of, if there is issue it is stated as it benefits others, if it will not benefit others, is a personal dispute or opinion and it is unexplained then whats the point?
I have just invested a lot of money in my car and will do so no doubt over the years (God willing) so you must be aware that I am interested/intrigued in this issue.
Perhaps PM me would be helpful?
pauljmcnulty
Active member
Hi Riverside.
Checking back, there has only been one post moderated by us this year. Prior to that there was one in December, because of a poorly worded comment that one person took as offensive. It was an off-topic non-Porsche thread anyway.
So - one post moderated out of hundreds, possibly thousands. And - surprise surprise it was a post about Andrew Sweetenham. But, FYI the post was moderated IN ANDREW'S DEFENSE. Why, then, do you think that it's we, the moderators who are being in any way biased?
Again, I will say to you that there if a lot of information which, although in the public domain, we CANNOT post on here. Partly because some of the people involved wish to remain anonymous, and one case involves court action. I'm sorry if that's an awkward situation, but what would be your alternative suggestion? You have not had the courteousy to telephone me, so I will assume that you do not want to discuss it further?
Regarding membership. I personally welcome the fact that non-members get the same access to this section of the Club forum as the most comitted member. But - please respect the fact that you are on a forum that has a set of printed rules. We don't have the option of allowing a free-for-all on here, there are other forums if that's what you want. If you would like the rules changed, join the Club and change them!
Please don't try to suggest that one Porsche-related post being moderated because it was against the forum rules means that the forum is heavily moderated!!
sawood12
New member
Riverside, I think you hit the nail on the head. I also use PH for second hand parts and the odd 'simple' job as they are so convenient and cheap, but wouldn't necessarily trust them to carry out anything that requires specialist kowlede or experience. They are breakers first and foremost. I use Zentrum for servicing and what I think are jobs that require specialist knowledge (I would use Zentrum more if they were easier to get to) and am planning on using Promax to fit my KW, and Paul 'Hilux's' experience has reinforced my intension to use them - although MK is a pain in the bum for me to get to. Until now i've only used Promax to supply parts that i've fitted, but I have rang them up for advice on how to fit those parts, and like you, i've found them to be very knowledgable, speaking from experience, friendly and always happy to help and chat. And I mention Andy Everett in particular who i've dealt with several times and he has been very helpful and a fountain of knowledge on the specific jobs i've quizzed him on.
I'm not bothered about the moderators deleting threads that they deem to be inflamatory or in-appropriate as threads like that just derail proper grown up discussions and exchanges of views. In my view I cannot see any reason why anyone would want to come on here and give people grief, even if they passionately disagreed with what they had to say. Rather than suffering from 'Forum-rage' they should learn to express themselves in a more acceptable way to get their view accross and accept the fact that you might not always be able to make others see your point of view. By the way i'm not including Fen's previous comments in this as in my view Fen has his own point of veiw about "a certain organisation" and has expressed it openly and backed up his objections, and quite rightly the moderators have allowed "the certain organisation"* to defend themselves. This in my view is what constitutes a heathly debate and long may it continue.
*edited to remove the name of the "certain organisation" as I don't want to stir up the hornets nest again!!
I'm not bothered about the moderators deleting threads that they deem to be inflamatory or in-appropriate as threads like that just derail proper grown up discussions and exchanges of views. In my view I cannot see any reason why anyone would want to come on here and give people grief, even if they passionately disagreed with what they had to say. Rather than suffering from 'Forum-rage' they should learn to express themselves in a more acceptable way to get their view accross and accept the fact that you might not always be able to make others see your point of view. By the way i'm not including Fen's previous comments in this as in my view Fen has his own point of veiw about "a certain organisation" and has expressed it openly and backed up his objections, and quite rightly the moderators have allowed "the certain organisation"* to defend themselves. This in my view is what constitutes a heathly debate and long may it continue.
*edited to remove the name of the "certain organisation" as I don't want to stir up the hornets nest again!!
pauljmcnulty
Active member
Hi Paul,
I agree with you entirely.
Please read previous posts - there are a lot of things that people can't post even though they'd like to. For reasons of anonymity or legal advice.
I'm happy to talk to you about it, feel free to call me.
It is obviously difficult to take such comments less than personally but I will endeavour to be objective.
Delicate pros, but I find difficult to comment on, or defend, as I can't see where you have gained that perception.
To my knowledge the moderators have probably only deleted four posts in open forum since the forum started. I can't see how that has produced consequences that we are blissfully ignorant of. Perhaps it has, and we obviously are, so perhaps you are right.
A member was banned from the forum for blatant advertising, and all of his, and associated posts, removed in the past. This was undertaken at a higher level than myself, and my colleagues, but we did instigate the removal. The banned member has subsequently been reinstated by, mutual agreement, on the undersatnding that he stayed within the rules of the forum.
I note you decline to make your profile available so we can't tell how long you have been a forum member. You make note that first hand experience is all you give credence to and, by your number of posts, I assume you haven't been a forum member long. This being the case, I fail to see how you can come by the conclusion we create awkward situations.
A forum is only as good as its members and works on sharing, combining and discussing experiences. The Club has put certain rules of use in place which, to my mind, does little to stop this transfer of experience aside deterring traders from advertising. Traders are at liberty to, and do, discuss technical issues.
As far as joining the Club, PCGB has a great deal more to offer than just this forum with events, local meets, discounts and a monthly journal the envy of other car clubs. I wouldn't base you decision to join, or not, purely on how good or bad the forum is.
If your sole interest is gaining knowledge of your car, and not in the club or meeting other members, there are many other international forums which have much higher membership (and thus knowledge base). However, many who are members of several fora suggest that they like this forum because it is so friendly.
Riverside, I take on board your point about people speaking up for themselves. I don't have direct experience because unfortunately one of my friends was ripped off by this particular supplier to the tune of a serious amount of money before I really had the opportunity. In fact that happened on the first incarnation of the set-up which was pretty much a debacle of comedy proportions had it not been for the real cost to some cutomers.
On asking around I find several more people I know also had issues that cost them money and time and hassle that were met with a "sod off" attitude when they complained. All were the same "specialist". All I can say is that many of them don't use the forum, and of those who do they seem to have their own reasons for keeping quiet. That may be a desire to remain anonymous, a need to keep quiet while the legal process grinds on (I know this for a fact in one case), or perhaps they have been scared by the stock response of a threat of legal action for "libel" that has been trawled out by the offender on several occasions when the truth was neared and there were no available answers to make him look less bad. Perhaps even they joined the forum after the arguments started and don't want to get involved in having to justify why they feel the desire to make public their story - I get the impression many members wouldn't thank them for it, which I find incredible, but it's the way it is.
You should also be aware that this same offender is not above sending threatening PMs or emails to people who get too close to the truth. I have one of those personally which basically suggested I should be careful next time we meet, if that helps you with my credentials. I posted it on full in here to let everyone see what the man is really like, but the thread was pulled by one of the mods; a decision I will remain disappointed in to my dying day and he knows it as I wrote to him straight after to tell him so.
I don't personally believe in PMs in this situation - I think it's sneaky and if I have something to say then I say it publicly. To that end I can assure everyone that I have never sent an unsolicited email or PM badmouthing anyone.
On asking around I find several more people I know also had issues that cost them money and time and hassle that were met with a "sod off" attitude when they complained. All were the same "specialist". All I can say is that many of them don't use the forum, and of those who do they seem to have their own reasons for keeping quiet. That may be a desire to remain anonymous, a need to keep quiet while the legal process grinds on (I know this for a fact in one case), or perhaps they have been scared by the stock response of a threat of legal action for "libel" that has been trawled out by the offender on several occasions when the truth was neared and there were no available answers to make him look less bad. Perhaps even they joined the forum after the arguments started and don't want to get involved in having to justify why they feel the desire to make public their story - I get the impression many members wouldn't thank them for it, which I find incredible, but it's the way it is.
You should also be aware that this same offender is not above sending threatening PMs or emails to people who get too close to the truth. I have one of those personally which basically suggested I should be careful next time we meet, if that helps you with my credentials. I posted it on full in here to let everyone see what the man is really like, but the thread was pulled by one of the mods; a decision I will remain disappointed in to my dying day and he knows it as I wrote to him straight after to tell him so.
I don't personally believe in PMs in this situation - I think it's sneaky and if I have something to say then I say it publicly. To that end I can assure everyone that I have never sent an unsolicited email or PM badmouthing anyone.
millview
New member
In reply to Riverside, what a breath of fresh air!
I just hope your post is allowed to remain, as in my opinion it contains more sense per column centimetre than most.[
]
A year ago, when I tried to post about the very good experience my brother had received from the guys at Brackley, it was 'deleted'. I did not complain as it is very obvious on this forum that certain people, and their friends, are embroiled in a long standing argument. (Which they seem to bring up in very obscure terms, at every conceivable opportunity).
Let's all remember that every coin has two sides, and that an opinion is not necessarily validated (new word?) by the number of posts made to this forum.[]
(Update)[]
Having read the latest additions to this thread my post may seem irrelevant, but Paul wants feedback so here's my offering!
I just hope your post is allowed to remain, as in my opinion it contains more sense per column centimetre than most.[
]A year ago, when I tried to post about the very good experience my brother had received from the guys at Brackley, it was 'deleted'. I did not complain as it is very obvious on this forum that certain people, and their friends, are embroiled in a long standing argument. (Which they seem to bring up in very obscure terms, at every conceivable opportunity).
Let's all remember that every coin has two sides, and that an opinion is not necessarily validated (new word?) by the number of posts made to this forum.[
](Update)[
]Having read the latest additions to this thread my post may seem irrelevant, but Paul wants feedback so here's my offering!
I take it that's aimed at me.
Right, let's be specific: Did you let them touch your belts? If so then I seriously recommend you get someone who does know how to fit belts to a 944 check it, because there is a very good chance they are done incorrectly. Best do it before they case you a problem by failing, too. Be sure to post how happy you are with them if you fid they were wrong, please.
Right, let's be specific: Did you let them touch your belts? If so then I seriously recommend you get someone who does know how to fit belts to a 944 check it, because there is a very good chance they are done incorrectly. Best do it before they case you a problem by failing, too. Be sure to post how happy you are with them if you fid they were wrong, please.
ORIGINAL: millview
In reply to Riverside, what a breath of fresh air!
I just hope your post is allowed to remain, as in my opinion it contains more sense per column centimetre than most.[
I don't understand why you think his post would be removed. He hasn't broken any rules.
This being the case it will be because it was included in a thread relating to the banned member. He complained that people were criticising him (which they were) and it was agreed with the Moderator that all references both good and bad were removed. As it happens, I had a thread commenting on what good service I experienced removed as well - my reference was by way of supply of components and the after sales service there of.
millview
New member
Gosh, calm down Fen, it was never my intention to spoil your weekend![]
No, he did not have his belts touched. But according to my brother, (who was trained at an engineering works in Derby, many years ago) he was very impressed with their set-up, method of working and attention to detail.
Yes John, it was your thread to which I refer. If I remember correctly, you started with a compliment to which I concurred. Next time I looked the whole thread had disappeared. Isn't it possible to remove just the offending posts without removing the complete thread?
]No, he did not have his belts touched. But according to my brother, (who was trained at an engineering works in Derby, many years ago) he was very impressed with their set-up, method of working and attention to detail.
Yes John, it was your thread to which I refer. If I remember correctly, you started with a compliment to which I concurred. Next time I looked the whole thread had disappeared. Isn't it possible to remove just the offending posts without removing the complete thread?
Firstly I'll reply by saying you earlier yesterday specifically asked for feedback & and your first response to negative feedback is to be critical.
Secondly by it's very nature if you are known to delete posts there is no way I can know how many you delete that I haven't seen (you also don't know how many you deleted that I did read). In this most recent case by chance I happened to read it when I popped home at lunch, I remember looking at the previous posts of the person (in his profile) to try to work out why he'd posted it & even done a quick google of his username to see if any more information was forthcoming. It wasn't, as far as this forum was concerned it was a bolt out of the blue & unrelated to anything either that user or his target had said, I'm not even convinced it was related to this thread (ie percieved advertising abuse), it was just random aggression & I would have been able to look into it further (as I have done with numerous other issues with companies I am considering using or use) to fill in the blanks as it were had you not interfered. You undermine my ability to find out for myself whether it's justified or not. I'm not on Andrew's side, I'm on my own side & I want to make sure I have as much information as I reasonably can, usually by simply lurking & taking in information (I lurk in lots of places), more & more (on here) by having to ask questions myself. I decide who I use & I may tell people who I use, the reader can make their own mind up whether to use the same company based on what I've said and how much they think my opinion is worth.
Thirdly I must ask you to seriously consider what 'we can't talk about it' means from a legal standpoint Paul. It doesn't mean 'I can walk around shouting that there is a problem that I can't tell you about', letting people's imagination put a worst case scenario slant on it. It means you should not mention it at all, just as though the problem doesn't exist. You imply there is a problem and pretty well state who one side of the problem is with. Don't talk about it if you've been told not to, there is good reason why these sort of things are requested of you (Pandora's Box). It seems you understand the letter of the rules very well Paul but not the reason(s) why they are like that, or the consequenses.
Fourthly, if you want to use my PCGB member status against me (or any user) make sure your admin is up to date, there are several members (eg Fen & Andrew) who are marked as non-members but have apparently paid up. Just as I described for Promax & Zentrum earlier I 'tested' them to see whether they were worthy of my money & they both were (and continue to be, it's an ongoing process). PCGB have yet to get any money from me precisely because they have not yet passed muster in my eyes, again for the reasons stated earlier but again it's an ongoing process and I may decide to start paying at some point in the future. In other words I currently have PCGB in the same 'box' some people have put Promax in (the box marked 'do not use'). I'm willing to change my mind about PCGB if the objection I have stated changes though which is precisely why I'm here & being vocal as a non-member. The upshot is this: You chaps start treating (people like) Andrew decently & I'll send a cheque.
What does it matter how well set up, methodical and attentive to detail someone is if they don't actually know what they are doing on one of the most basic service jobs on the very model they can supposedly claim some experience? "The job's a load of knackers, but the workshop was clean and they were really organised and careful while the screwed my car up".
I recommend people don't go there for precisely the reason things like this are done wrong, and I know what the attitude would be if that caused an engine failure because I've seen it before with a failure caused by another reason but still the responsibility of the same "specialist". My "friends" happen to be the others who have been around the 944 community for many, many years and know the score also.
My belief is that if someone puts out bad work and refuses to stand by their obligations and commitments when things go expensively wrong for cusotmers then you simply don't use them at all regardless what it is you want and how unlikely you are to be caught out. Continuing to give them business and preach about how good it was just encourages other poor sods to take their car there and have it compromised.
Frankly anyone can bolt suspension to a 944 (and as an aside from what I hear in reports of how a car identical in kit to mine handles it isn't as nice as I'd describe mine and I don't get the impression the owner is entirely comfortable with the handling yet), but that doesn't mean they are good at more complex work.
I recommend people don't go there for precisely the reason things like this are done wrong, and I know what the attitude would be if that caused an engine failure because I've seen it before with a failure caused by another reason but still the responsibility of the same "specialist". My "friends" happen to be the others who have been around the 944 community for many, many years and know the score also.
My belief is that if someone puts out bad work and refuses to stand by their obligations and commitments when things go expensively wrong for cusotmers then you simply don't use them at all regardless what it is you want and how unlikely you are to be caught out. Continuing to give them business and preach about how good it was just encourages other poor sods to take their car there and have it compromised.
Frankly anyone can bolt suspension to a 944 (and as an aside from what I hear in reports of how a car identical in kit to mine handles it isn't as nice as I'd describe mine and I don't get the impression the owner is entirely comfortable with the handling yet), but that doesn't mean they are good at more complex work.
Blatant Advertising? If that's the worst levelled at Promax I'll factor that in to my decision making process & carry on using them thanks, and part of the point of this thread was to find out people's opinion on this so it's hardly an argument, it just highlights how your rules fall short for some users, of which I am one. Personally I'd love to know how much it would cost me to get a 3.2 like Pauls but I'll never find out on this forum because it'd get the 'advertising' stick poked at it as soon as John posts it. I probably couldn't afford it anyway (I certainly couldn't afford Promax's £8k 400bhp upgrade and I'm guessing it would be more than that) so I wouldn't ask myself but it's handy info to know. Similarly I was intersted to read Andrew's post giving an estimate on the labour cost of fitting KW suuspension in the LIL thread (the question being asked by Paul smacked a bit of diplomacy & is the only thing I could remotely think might be the cause of yestersday's deleted post on this thread).
Why is the duration of my membership to this forum relevant at all? I can read old threads just as easily as anyone that joined today, except for the ones that were deleted of course. If they were deleted it's because it was agreed by the mods they should not have been posted so by a mod implying that I'm missing something you are saying there was something relevant there that you think should have stayed. If it was struck from the record it's not something you can use in an argument so it's irrelevant. Fen can, I can (if I read them), you can't. This is an example of 'a company' (PCGB in this case) being seen to deal with a situation badly (and continuing to do so). If it matters for some other reason I spent quite a long time lurking here before making my first post, just as I have with most other forums (in fact I don't think I've ever posted a single comment on rennlist but I read it most days).
For answers to your last three paragraphs hopefully my previous post answers your questions.
I was with you most of the way until that last sentence. He has been treated more than fairly for someone who has repeatedly flouted the rules others abide by.
The reason I post while being unable to go into detail is merely to try to stop people from making a bad decision today, tomorrow or next week when it may be next month before the detail is out. I think Paul is in a difficult position because he knows probably more than I do about cases of bad service and as 944 Reg Sec is a focal point giving him the data available to see if one specific vendor has disproportionately high complaints. One does and he is attempting to distance himself and PCGB from being seen to recommend that vendor to protect the Club from any fall out when a case turns nasty.
Are you a member on 968UK? If so check out the this thread http://www.porsche968uk.co.uk/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=4350 where someone has stood up to be counted with first hand experience of incorrect belt fitment. This is not an isolated case and if you don't believe that ask yourself how on earth only one car could be done completely wrong in a two man workshop. The reason it was done wrong is simple - the "specialists" concerned aren't and in the absence of proper training or experience gained by working with someone who knows the cars they work from the book, which unfortunately has an error in the translation from the original German to English such that if the instructions are followed literally the tensioner is fitted incorrectly. That suggests to me that for a period (still?) every car they did the belts on has a problem. We even had an arrogant post from one representative saying 95% of other specialists did the belts wrong. Now on one level that is funny because it's a ludicous statement that would surely get most of us thinking that's pretty unlikely, but it also pretty much proves to me that they were not only doing it wrong themselves, but didn't have the nous to realise they might be the ones making the mistake in the face of those odds.
I know you don't like to hear it, but there will soon be empirical evidence of the true level of customer service on offer made very public. The facts are indesputable, a legal decision has been made and it's only the final impact that is to be decided, but it is not appropriate for me to lay out the details until the customer in question feels it is appropriate. If you think that means it's not worth considering then that is your choice. If even one other potential punter thinks different and decides to go elsewhere then I think it was worth raising the subject as far as possible now.
Neil Haughey
New member
Actually suspension badly installed was the exact problem I had with one of the biggest Porsche specialists in the country. For fear of legal action I will not go into the details on here but anyone can ask me about the experience in person and I will give my opinion. I don't like to see constant name and shame stuff going on this forum. It makes us all look petty. Now for something positive. I have used MR performance cars near Salisbury over the last 5 years for possibly 95% of the work I haven't managed myself. They don't seem to advertise anymore since they have a loyal following of mostly long term Porsche enthusiasts in the south west. I don't think they have ever done anything other then an excellent job but by their own admission are not really expert with the modern electronics. However last time I was in the workshop they were rebuilding a 930 gearbox, a 964 engine and some pre 74 911 engine.
Whether it was Promax or not the reason forum membership was revoked was because the member didn't abide by the rules of the forum. The rules that everyone agrees to abide by when they join. If you don't like the rules don't join.
Well click on Jon's name and you can e-mail him direct. You wouldn't expect him to post such commercially delicate information on the forum anyway. By the same token I assume you wouldn't want it common knowledge what you spend on your car.
One minute you are accusing us of being insensitive and the next overly diplomatic. Which one is it? (This is a rhetorical question and, in honesty, I don't really care.)
Because, subject to the duration of your forum membership, you will have first hand experience of the level of forum censoring you are accusing us off. If your membership is a short period you have little grounds to base such an accusation - as you said - once a post has gone you can no longer see if it was there of not. It doesn't matter how many previous threads you trawl through.
My last three paragraphs were statements, not questions, and as such don't invite an answer.
As the performance of any specific supplier is outside of the subject of this thread perhaps you would like to start a separate thread to enquire of peoples experiences. I am sure it would make for interesting reading. It did in the past but the supplier got a little upset about the way the thread was going and requested that all references were removed .....Oh, isn't that where we came in?
Edited 'cos I got my quotes wrong [&:]
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