The rules. Sorry - it's a long one!

[Riverside]

ORIGINAL: Fen

ORIGINAL: Riverside

I refer readers to my earlier comments about second-hand information and taking them for what you think they are worth.

Are you a member on 968UK? If so check out the this thread http://www.porsche968uk.co.uk/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=4350 where someone has stood up to be counted with first hand experience of incorrect belt fitment. This is not an isolated case and if you don't believe that ask yourself how on earth only one car could be done completely wrong in a two man workshop. The reason it was done wrong is simple - the "specialists" concerned aren't and in the absence of proper training or experience gained by working with someone who knows the cars they work from the book, which unfortunately has an error in the translation from the original German to English such that if the instructions are followed literally the tensioner is fitted incorrectly. That suggests to me that for a period (still?) every car they did the belts on has a problem. We even had an arrogant post from one representative saying 95% of other specialists did the belts wrong. Now on one level that is funny because it's a ludicous statement that would surely get most of us thinking that's pretty unlikely, but it also pretty much proves to me that they were not only doing it wrong themselves, but didn't have the nous to realise they might be the ones making the mistake in the face of those odds.

I know you don't like to hear it, but there will soon be empirical evidence of the true level of customer service on offer made very public. The facts are indesputable, a legal decision has been made and it's only the final impact that is to be decided, but it is not appropriate for me to lay out the details until the customer in question feels it is appropriate. If you think that means it's not worth considering then that is your choice. If even one other potential punter thinks different and decides to go elsewhere then I think it was worth raising the subject as far as possible now.

A good example of just what I was describing earlier. The OP's opinion is worth more than yours on that thread Fen, and the OP's description is itself taken from a competitor of Promax that I have no direct experience of (but read good things about) as I stated earlier. My point is that people can make up their own mind, they don't need (and I don't want) you to try to draw conclusions for them (me). This isn't a tabloid newspaper Fen, it's a forum for people who own expensive toys, it's safe to assume they are all intelligent enough to work out what company 'makes good chips'.

In the interests of balance it's worth me adding that I had my belts & water pump done early this year & I have no reason to question how it was done by the company that services my car, and I took it to the place I felt was most likely to do that job best. That doesn't mean I thought anyone else would do a bad job.

 

[RC18B 911 turbo]

I've been reading this with interest since yesterday and haven't seen the need to bother posting anything until now from what I got from this quote is that riverside is obviously not happy with the way the forum is run so obviously if you don't like it then don't use it or instead of having a go at almost everybody just contact a moderator and tell them that there is something you don't like and they may or may not be able to do something about it

PCGB have yet to get any money from me precisely because they have not yet passed muster in my eyes, again for the reasons stated earlier but again it's an ongoing process and I may decide to start paying at some point in the future. In other words I currently have PCGB in the same 'box' some people have put Promax in (the box marked 'do not use')

 

[Hilux]

Frankly anyone can bolt suspension to a 944 (and as an aside from what I hear in reports of how a car identical in kit to mine handles it isn't as nice as I'd describe mine and I don't get the impression the owner is entirely comfortable with the handling yet), but that doesn't mean they are good at more complex work.

Accepted entirely BUT if there have been issues then we need to know (I would have liked to know) so as to make our own minds up. I merrily (and happily) had the work done recently with no comment, warning or advice to the contrary from this forum yet for this reason it is exactly why I use it. I would not have expected open criticism but on other forums (to be fair to the club and the businesses concerned) I would have been PM`d.

Others experience and the knowledge base is crucial in running cars such as these.

A major specialist in Hertfordshire did the first lot of work on my car when I bought it 2 years ago and I will not go back there yet a friend in my village thinks they are the DB`s.

Nuff said, the moderators are fine, the level of `help` is fine, I`m fine, Its raining so I`m on the PC and I'm now leaving this thread as its going nowhere.............................[]

 

[Riverside]

ORIGINAL: John Sims

ORIGINAL: Riverside

Blatant Advertising? If that's the worst levelled at Promax

Whether it was Promax or not the reason forum membership was revoked was because the member didn't abide by the rules of the forum. The rules that everyone agrees to abide by when they join. If you don't like the rules don't join.

Personally I'd love to know how much it would cost me to get a 3.2 like Pauls

Well click on Jon's name and you can e-mail him direct. You wouldn't expect him to post such commercially delicate information on the forum anyway. By the same token I assume you wouldn't want it common knowledge what you spend on your car.

Similarly I was intersted to read Andrew's post giving an estimate on the labour cost of fitting KW suuspension in the LIL thread (the question being asked by Paul smacked a bit of diplomacy & is the only thing I could remotely think might be the cause of yestersday's deleted post on this thread).

One minute you are accusing us of being insensitive and the next overly diplomatic. Which one is it? (This is a rhetorical question and, in honesty, I don't really care.)

Why is the duration of my membership to this forum relevant at all?

Because, subject to the duration of your forum membership, you will have first hand experience of the level of forum censoring you are accusing us off. If your membership is a short period you have little grounds to base such an accusation - as you said - once a post has gone you can no longer see if it was there of not. It doesn't matter how many previous threads you trawl through.

For answers to your last three paragraphs hopefully my previous post answers your questions.

My last three paragraphs were statements, not questions, and as such don't invite an answer.

As the performance of any specific supplier is outside of the subject of this thread perhaps you would like to start a separate thread to enquire of peoples experiences. I am sure it would make for interesting reading. It did in the past but the supplier got a little upset about the way the thread was going and requested that all references were removed .....Oh, isn't that where we came in?

Edited 'cos I got my quotes wrong [&:]

Firstly, I already understand and have commented today on the rules, and rest assured I will never advertise the company I work for on here or the products it makes (although it would be a potential sponsor if the rules were changed). I'm sure you recall that they were changed pretty much as a result of the events you describe.

Secondly you snipped the part where I state that I probably couldn't afford it and although I didn't mention it I have no plans to get any more out of my engine than it's currently giving. I'm interested (as with the KW fitting price) because it's a useful snippet of info about a significant success story. I didn't say I wanted to know how much Paul Smith spent because as you rightly imply it would be impolite to ask, but I'm sure 9xx won't just do this as a one-off, they'll probably create an upgrade package based on the R&D garnered from Paul's car. I won't get that info from this forum (as you say I'd have to get it by other means) and I'm describing that as a downside to your rules and the way they are implemented. This is feedback as requested, please take it on board & accept or reject it as you see fit.

In your third point you are obtuse. The connection is that the mods' handling of this situation is poor imo because your own rules have forced you into a corner & make it difficult to recover without losing face. My suggested solution is that you leave well alone. I described how I felt this was potentially the only reason why yesterday's deleted post could have been connected to recent events on the forum, had that post not been made I wouldn't have picked up on who asked the question. The deleted post (before it was deleted) caused me to go back & look at the only other thread that user had posted on.

In your fourth point again you snipped my own reply to my question, please refer back to my earlier post.

In your final point you are creating your own circular argument, I didn't set the rules and I didn't delete the posts. I also didn't choose the software that hides my join date but I think maybe you missed my point about the deleted posts being irrelevant (otherwise why would they be deleted?). I've just had a look in my profile & it says I joined in May'06 as Riverside, my first post was in this very thread on 27/11/06. Looking back to my old profile I joined on 25/10/2005, either the forum didn't require membership to read or I had another profile that I can't remember before that. I've been here a while [] I started looking at 944s in the summer of 2004 so I definately wouldn't have been here before that.

 

[Riverside]

ORIGINAL: RC18B 911 turbo

I've been reading this with interest since yesterday and haven't seen the need to bother posting anything until now from what I got from this quote is that riverside is obviously not happy with the way the forum is run so obviously if you don't like it then don't use it or instead of having a go at almost everybody just contact a moderator and tell them that there is something you don't like and they may or may not be able to do something about it

PCGB have yet to get any money from me precisely because they have not yet passed muster in my eyes, again for the reasons stated earlier but again it's an ongoing process and I may decide to start paying at some point in the future. In other words I currently have PCGB in the same 'box' some people have put Promax in (the box marked 'do not use')

You make a good point, I argue the same of Fen vs. Promax. If you don't like them just don't use them, no need to keep going on about it []

I'm posting in this thread today mostly because the mods asked for feedback though, and no one else was putting forward my view so I put them down myself. I don't normally say much, I just watch & learn[]

 

[John Sims]

ORIGINAL: Riverside

I've just had a look in my profile & it says I joined in May'06 as Riverside, my first post was in this very thread on 27/11/06. Looking back to my old profile I joined on 25/10/2005, either the forum didn't require membership to read or I had another profile that I can't remember before that. I've been here a while [] I started looking at 944s in the summer of 2004 so I definately wouldn't have been here before that.

We can't see your profile as you have hidden it - hence the question.

Obviously this forum can't be as bad as all that, considering the time you have been lurking, and thank you for finally contributing as, if we all stood on the sidelines, there wouldn't be a forum to spectate on.

Finally the moderators take the job of moderating seriously. As such we can't just ignore people flouting the forum rules. We can't "just leave well alone" and still be moderators if something needs moderating.

This is the PCGB forum principally for members of PCGB. If members are unhappy with the way the form is moderated then they can discuss it with Club HQ. If grounds are found that we have moderated unfairly, or inappropriately, our actions will be reversed and, in worst case, we will loose moderator status. To date there has been no moderation which hasn't had the full support of the higher management within the Club so IMHO little cause for "Face Saving".

 

[Fen]

Paul, I wouldn't worry about your car - there are no issues around suspension I am aware of. The issues relate to engine work and engine failure.

Riverside if you would rather discount what I say because it's not first hand than take note of it then that's your prerogative. I'm not about to spend money and risk my car just so I can claim personal experience, but neither am I going to stop posting to try to help others because I'm not making any of it up and I believe the people who have told me of their experiences. I did personally receive a threatening PM from someone apparently formally unconnected with a certain "specialist" who likes to give the impression he's the proprietor. If you told me that about someone else I'd question the level of involvement I want to have with them.

Specifically in terms of belts I know of people who have first hand experience, I pointed you at a thread where that was confirmed by someone with first hand experience and I also explained why they were fitting them wrong and why it is very unlikely to be a one-off. Apparently even that isn't good enough as you would rather pick holes in what I said in that thread and seem to be suggesting either that Jon (who is factory, not even dealer, trained) has an axe to grind or that it's only his word against the completely untrained culprit's that it was actually wrong. As I say it's your prerogative, but I can't get horses and water out of my mind.

 

[DivineE]

I have first hand experience which I have already described many many times but if anyone would like to PM me to ask for some comments about the character of Andrew S your more than welcome and I will try to respond objectively when I have a moment.

Ben

 

[Riverside]

ORIGINAL: Fen
Riverside if you would rather discount what I say because it's not first hand than take note of it then that's your prerogative.

I didn't say I'd ignore anyone's posts, that would be stupid. I do think you should keep out of it though, let your mate(s) tell their own stories of woe or otherwise.

Like Fen, I'm not particularly interested in chatting behind people's backs (ie privately), although I do it occasionally. If it shouldn't be said on a public forum (and this isn't) it shouldn't be said at all imo and that's nothing to do with this forum's rules, it's just good manners. Ben, I am appraised of your situation already as I mentioned way back towards the start of this thread months ago and read your (and others) comments on Titanic and here at the time. I would not want to have to go through that whoever the blame lies with and I understand your dissapointment, and my position (make your own mind up & accept that others will do the same and come to different conclusions) reflects this.

 

[ianreeves]

Wow, looks like an interisting debate !

Well as I know from first hand I fell I can comment !

Firstly the belts were wrong, but there was no issue made by Jon who corrected the problem, he's not that kind of person anyone who has delt with him would know that... I made it public, I am sure Jon would never do that, its just plain unprofessional. So I think its only fair to keep him out of any arguements as I doubt he will comment anyway.

Secondly I have documented evidence of the issue, again only I knew who had worked on the car before him as a fact.

As a note I'd be interested myself to see the 'error' in the documentation this would be helpful to understand why this happens, also if anyone is doing a home repair its good to know you've done it right !

The whole thread has moved way off topic now so maybe its best to close ?

 

[924nutter]

Again, to no-one in particular, if we as 944 forum members look at the last two pages of posts, some of which have clearly taken some time to compose, looking at the length, (and I admit to only having skimmed thorugh some of them) I have at least read enough to detect personal admonishments by one member of another member. Also the phrase "public reprimand and humiliation" sticks in my mind. One of things you learn in man management is to leave people, however in-the-wrong they are, with their dignity intact, so public humiliation is out for a start. (not to mention the legal backlash if you can't prove what you have said if you are referring to comercial services). Another thing to appreciate that emails or forum post should never be used to admonish anyone, or indeed for rebuttal. As only 7% of communication in by verbal or written means, the rest is body langauge. Now the internet is good but no-one has yet managed to transmit body langauge, but body langaugeg is so important, and has a direct impact on the reply. The original thread was about forum rules and justification there of and I think in a roundabout way we have just demonstrated why there should be no advertising on the forum.
This isn't Ebay so we shouldn't be leaving feedback either, should we? You've had a great job done on your car? Fantastic. Tell us all what you had done, what difference it has made, even how much, if you like. If I want to know where you had it done then I can PMail you and get all the details or the dirt from you privately, or I can get in touch with you at your monthly meeting. That way nodoby's feathers are ruffled. What about it guys? Do we really want to spend another rainy Sunday having a pop at each other?

 

[Neil Haughey]

I suggest you all go and look at the giant mother of all swissol adverts that takes up the entire detailing section. I don't care what some of you say IMHO there is a definite bias on this website, perhaps to some extent it is down to some people being more careful with the rules, perhaps something else.

 

[pauljmcnulty]

I've just had a look in my profile & it says I joined in May'06 as Riverside, my first post was in this very thread on 27/11/06. Looking back to my old profile I joined on 25/10/2005, either the forum didn't require membership to read or I had another profile that I can't remember before that. I've been here a while

Hi Malcolm,

You were previously registered as "Malc", according to our records. Could be why it looks as if you've been around longer.

HTH

 

[Riverside]

ORIGINAL: pauljmcnulty

I've just had a look in my profile & it says I joined in May'06 as Riverside, my first post was in this very thread on 27/11/06. Looking back to my old profile I joined on 25/10/2005, either the forum didn't require membership to read or I had another profile that I can't remember before that. I've been here a while

Hi Malcolm,

You were previously registered as "Malc", according to our records. Could be why it looks as if you've been around longer.

HTH

Well done Paul, you've really done your homework there [8D]
Did you read the rest of the post you quoted (specifically the part about losing face)? I'd say you've proved my point extremely well about bias from the mods and I hope it's clear that this kind of stalking behaviour isn't really acceptable from anyone, let alone a mod.

I think it would really be very helpful if you could go over your thought process while constructing that post and explain why you did it. I think it would help people understand that there are two sides to every coin while using an example which does not involve Andrew or Promax.

 

[pauljmcnulty]

Well done Paul, you've really done your homework there
Did you read the rest of the post you quoted (specifically the part about losing face)? I'd say you've proved my point extremely well about bias from the mods and I hope it's clear that this kind of stalking behaviour isn't really acceptable from anyone, let alone a mod.

I think it would really be very helpful if you could go over your thought process while constructing that post and explain why you did it. I think it would help people understand that there are two sides to every coin while using an example which does not involve Andrew or Promax.

Sorry?????

As I don't know who you are, you have not had the courteousy to call me and you asked the question

either the forum didn't require membership to read or I had another profile that I can't remember before that. I've been here a while

I answered it.....?

I think it's time you either did the decent thing and had a conversation with me, or you avoid stupid language such as "stalking"? I have tried to keep a modicum of reality in this post.

I am also surprised that you have brought the thread round to Andrew ( a surname would only be polite) and Promax. Again, if you would please call me I'm happy to discuss that subject. In the meantime, I would respect the people involved and let them speak for themselves. This is a thread about the PCGB forum rules, so please stay on topic.

Every question or point you have raised on this issue has been covered in more than enough detail to bore the rest of the members. So - will you please call me and explain your agenda, or let other people fight their own battles??

Thank you.

 

[pauljmcnulty]

I suggest you all go and look at the giant mother of all swissol adverts that takes up the entire detailing section. I don't care what some of you say IMHO there is a definite bias on this website, perhaps to some extent it is down to some people being more careful with the rules, perhaps something else.

Absolutely, Neil.

That's where this thread started. I think - and it was a while ago....[8|] - that we all agreed to let the forum be flexible for a while. We have allowed plenty of things like signatures including websites, and the odd bit of self-promotion from several traders. It doesn't seem to have been a bad compromise.

I'm not sure how that is biased, though? Please call me and discuss it rather than boring everyone else...[&:]

 

[John Sims]

ORIGINAL: Riverside

......I hope it's clear that this kind of stalking behaviour isn't really acceptable from anyone, let alone a mod.

So it is entirely acceptable for you to stalk:-

"to try to work out why he'd posted it & even done a quick google of his username to see if any more information was forthcoming"

but not for a Club official to check previous details of subscription status of a forum poster?

TBH I see this form of posting of little benefit other than to entertain you in baiting the form moderators. It doesn't prove, or otherwise, a bias against someone who was, at the time, rightly banned from the forum.

Many of the members here do know each other socially (that tends to happen when you are a Club member) and there is much banter which is fun and friendly. Obviously we talk about many things when we meet away from the forum and I think it is inevitable that someone not a party to these discussions may

a) Get the wrong end of the stick
b) Not appreciate the level of 1st hand knowledge available

Fen and others are passionate about Porsche ownership, are knowledgeable, and don't suffer fools gladly. Others of us are more charitable but are only human.

 

[Riverside]

ORIGINAL: pauljmcnulty

Well done Paul, you've really done your homework there
Did you read the rest of the post you quoted (specifically the part about losing face)? I'd say you've proved my point extremely well about bias from the mods and I hope it's clear that this kind of stalking behaviour isn't really acceptable from anyone, let alone a mod.

I think it would really be very helpful if you could go over your thought process while constructing that post and explain why you did it. I think it would help people understand that there are two sides to every coin while using an example which does not involve Andrew or Promax.

Sorry?????

As I don't know who you are, you have not had the courteousy to call me and you asked the question

either the forum didn't require membership to read or I had another profile that I can't remember before that. I've been here a while

I answered it.....?

I think it's time you either did the decent thing and had a conversation with me, or you avoid stupid language such as "stalking"? I have tried to keep a modicum of reality in this post.

I am also surprised that you have brought the thread round to Andrew ( a surname would only be polite) and Promax. Again, if you would please call me I'm happy to discuss that subject. In the meantime, I would respect the people involved and let them speak for themselves. This is a thread about the PCGB forum rules, so please stay on topic.

Every question or point you have raised on this issue has been covered in more than enough detail to bore the rest of the members. So - will you please call me and explain your agenda, or let other people fight their own battles??

Thank you.

That's no explanation, and given my position I certainly wouldn't want anyone to think I was talking behind their backs. Maybe you could give me a call, surely you must have found my number by now? At no point have I agreed to call you, on the subject of courtesy I'd say it's polite to make the offer, it's not impolite of me to refuse it. I'd like to see your justification for the post above though, I think it would help clear things up for a few people.

I appreciate that a lot has been posted today & it's easy to lose track but I have been responding to others' posts and have given full and frank answers (exactly what you asked for) all day. I am happy for this to continue as I think the direction this thread is now heading is relevant to the original post.

As you may surmise from the fact that this thread originally prompted me to de-lurk back in November after more than a year of silence it's a topic I feel quite strongly about.

 

[pauljmcnulty]

That's no explanation, and given my position I certainly wouldn't want anyone to think I was talking behind their backs. Maybe you could give me a call, surely you must have found my number by now?

Sorry - I've no number for you. Please pm it to me and I will gladly call.

Really not sure what more I can do? So - either call me on 07971 832780 or give me your number. You have some valid points I'd like to take on board, but I feel the wood has been truly lost in the trees in your posts.

I'm off to watch Top Gear now, so tomorrow evening would be better!!![]

 

[Riverside]

ORIGINAL: John Sims

ORIGINAL: Riverside

......I hope it's clear that this kind of stalking behaviour isn't really acceptable from anyone, let alone a mod.

So it is entirely acceptable for you to stalk:-

"to try to work out why he'd posted it & even done a quick google of his username to see if any more information was forthcoming"

but not for a Club official to check previous details of subscription status of a forum poster?

Yes, I still haven't posted his name and don't intend to because I respect the rules of ettiquette. There is no justification for Paul's post other than an attempt to have a dig at me, my old user account is unused and only confirms the information I supplied at your request.

I have met several members of this forum and others at social events and trackdays over the past couple of years and have an entertaining collection of stories & mishaps of my own.

I'm not baiting you, I'm just giving you feedback on what I think is a problem & how I think you could solve it from my perspective. You don't have to do it, you just have to take it on board. Had Paul not put his post up earlier it's unlikely I would have replied again.

What would a phone call achieve? I'd like to know.