time for a 911?

[Alpine]

I've had my 944 for over 3 years now and I'm starting to get that feeling that I guess most of us have had at some time, which is that maybe I should get a 911. Been looking through Autotrader and up to £20k can get you in a 993 (just) or a 996.

Just wondered if any of you have ever had similar thoughts ?

 

[A5DSR]

Many a time, I'm rather partial to the 964 targa, but then I get back in my 944 and realise why we've still got it after 17 years...

Darren.

 

[Lemon]

ORIGINAL: Alpine



Just wondered if any of you have ever had similar thoughts ?

Every day but then mine is bought paid for and in fantastic condition now. I have spent many years of pampering and I think, why would I want to sell.

But if I had a double garage it may be a different story, although the 944 would stay and would get a friend. Probably a 993[]

 

[sailor]

That's the spirit, Lads. Don't be fiddling with kettles when the time comes.

JohnC
993turbo

 

[appletonn]

I had a 1990 964 C4 about 6 years ago and I still miss it[8|]

My aim is to get a 964 C2 and turn it into an RS alike (not very original I know....) with the light weight interior and KW suspension, after I get Jonny at Unit 11 to breath on the engine a little.

Would still want to keep my 944 though[]

 

[morris944s2john]

At some point I'd like to have a late 80's 3.2 Carrera with G50 box. If I could get a "project" one with FSH and good mechanics but needing some bodywork/paint cheaply, then all the better!

I'd keep my 944 S2 though.

 

[georgethackray]

ORIGINAL: morris944s2john
I'd keep my 944 S2 though.

Me too. I'm thinking of getting a 911, but it would definitely be in addition to my 944.

 

[Neil Haughey]

Have a trawl around on pistonheads, some very interesting comments from Baz Hartech about 996 running costs in the thread about 996 engine failures, in response to a point I made about what IMHO is hot air about how bad the 996 is (search on NJH to find me on pistonheads).

Basically Baz feels the costs on a 996 are the same as an 8v 944 and lower then the S2, scarily he feels 40% lower then the 944 turbo. He should know as he puts together a very tempting warranty package on older Porsches and in a sense he is putting his money where his mouth is with respects to long term running costs on these cars.

I found 3 silver carrera 2 with blue leather on autotrader the other day for between 16K and 18K, these cars are dropping big time.

However I also spotted a 56 plate cayman S for £26K which is just plain shocking. Seems caymans are dropping like a stone, I will not be surprised to see one at 20 grand by christmas. This would be a much better bet for me then either the 993 or 996 since you will be getting a car that can still have many years of Porsche warranty scheme applied to it and has gone down the majority of its depreciation curve. Lastly I would say sit in a cayman next time you visit an OPC and tell me hand on heart if you would really rather sit looking at that dash in the 996 (the performance question is a moot point, Cayman S will wipe the floor with a 10yr old 996 C2).

 

[James_G]

Yep, been there too and agree with Neil. A Cayman is really all the car I need, but they are still a touch too pricey for me to feel comfortable using one everyday, parking in Sainsbury's etc, and I rarely see one with a nice smattering of options. They are either totally tooled up (so to speak) or devoid of any kit at all.

Mind you, in these troubled times, I'd still have to sell my two cars, which by all acounts could take ages. []

 

[appletonn]

I am afraid that I just do not get the appeal of the 996 at all, even at £18k. Amorphous styling and anonymous interior devoid of any real character.[:'(]

The only kettle 911 that appeals is a 997 GT3 or RS and they are somewhat out of my grasp[8|]

For the £18k, I would rather find a nice 964 or cheap 993 any day of the week, especially as the 996 is still depreciating whereas the other two are slowing down in comparison. A RS alike version of one of these has character and ability in spades and I wouldn't have to worry about them haemorrhaging money in depreciation each week....[]

That said, a Cayman S with 19" rims and sports exhaust would do very nicely thankyou...[]

 

[stevespic]

ORIGINAL: appletonn

I am afraid that I just do not get the appeal of the 996 at all, even at £18k. Amorphous styling and anonymous interior devoid of any real character.[:'(]

The only kettle 911 that appeals is a 997 GT3 or RS and they are somewhat out of my grasp[8|]

For the £18k, I would rather find a nice 964 or cheap 993 any day of the week, especially as the 996 is still depreciating whereas the other two are slowing down in comparison. A RS alike version of one of these has character and ability in spades and I wouldn't have to worry about them haemorrhaging money in depreciation each week....[]

That said, a Cayman S with 19" rims and sports exhaust would do very nicely thankyou...[]

Nick you took the words right out of my mouth, I think in a couple of years the early 996 cars will be around the same price as a cheap impact bumper 911, for a lot of purist the first 996 models were nothing like a what was none as a 911, with its fried egg head lamps and water cooled engine this was as far away from the first 911 as you could get and for that reason unless you buy real cheap then i think you could be out of pocket by a lot of dosh unless you keep the car and the same goes for the first boxers, a lot hated of people hated the shape ....and still do, im not a purist but i have to say i do prefer the 997 now its gone back to its original shape head lights and like Nick the 997 GT3 RS is the one and thetas well out of my reach unless i sell my house! ummmmm...I have to own up though i have been on the hunt for a light accident damaged 911, a spinner would be ideal, around 85 to 87, as i have a project in my mind which will include changing the front and rear bumpers and repainting the car anyhow..[]

 

[RichardLW]

Having owned a 944t, Carrera 3.2, 964 Celebration and a 993C4S I would say go and buy a Mk1 GT3 and you will wonder why you ever thought of buying anything else after about 10 minutes.

 

[Neil Haughey]

Price. Pure and simple. All variants of the GT3 are just far to expensive secondhand but like as you allude to this is understandable because the demand from enthusiasts is very high.

M3 CSL would be on my radar no doubt but I don't have 25K and even if I did I can't justify putting that much in a car. I also don't believe that these are depreciation proof, just wait for a CSL version of the new M3 to appear and these will go the same direction as all other secondhand bimmers.

I guess beeing an el-cheapo tight fisted so and so is why I am on the 944 wagon.

I have often wondered btw what a cheap 996 fitted with KW suspension and a nice exhaust would be like in comparison.

Also if one removes the pipe and beard, the 996 IMHO is actually closer to the original 911 concept then the 993 which in engineering terms is a frankenstein car. Ppl forget that the 911 was always intended to be an alround GT cum sports car thats why it has 4 seats and a rear engine unlike the 904 which had 2 seats and a mid engined layout. In this way for porsche to go back to its mid 60's root's the 911 would become more GT and the cayman would become an out and out sports car.

 

[RichardLW]

it has to be said that GT3 prices are far from stable at the moment......

but I take your point. If I was in your position, I would be looking at 964s which really are bloody good cars and retain the 911 magic whereas, in my opinion, 993s are just a bit dull and a bit of a dissapointment. Thats why I sold mine after less than two years - it just didn't do anything for me at all. It looked fabulous but was just too sanitised.

A bog standard 996 3.6 with decent suspension and a couple of lightweight seats ought to be a hoot too. People diss these cars but they really are not that bad at all. Certainly, the next person who tells me that Porsche lost the plot when they went water cooled (in the 911) and that the 993 was the best Porsche ever will get a bored look and probably a yawn too.

 

[steve 944t]

I have long been a big fan of 911s, but as an ownership prospect, the only one that is a real attraction to me (leaving aside the GT3s and RSs) is the 3.2 Carrera CS. I just love the brash 80s styling with the red script down the side. I know the changes from the standard carrera were not great, but my understanding is that the difference is very noticeable. Also, I have followed the value of these over the last few years and they certainly appear to be appreciating, not leaping in value but enough to justify a claim of true depreciation-proof ownership. The only thing that really stops me is that I can totally justify thrashing the pants off a <£10k 944 on trackdays, not so sure I would be happy doing the same in a £30k almost-unreplaceable CS.

 

[appletonn]

ORIGINAL: Neil Haughey



Also if one removes the pipe and beard, the 996 IMHO is actually closer to the original 911 concept then the 993 which in engineering terms is a frankenstein car. Ppl forget that the 911 was always intended to be an alround GT cum sports car thats why it has 4 seats and a rear engine unlike the 904 which had 2 seats and a mid engined layout. In this way for porsche to go back to its mid 60's root's the 911 would become more GT and the cayman would become an out and out sports car.

Hmmm, not so sure about that. The original 911 and all of the subsequent evolutions up to and including the 964 (imho) have the same compact and simplicity of line that defines the car, with a narrow body that allows and indeed encourages enthusiastic use on narrow country roads rather than the bloated and amorphous GT car that the watercooled generation initiated. For me, there is a sense of occasion about sitting in the air cooled cars' idiosyncratic cabin and the cars were sports cars first and GT cars second, whereas the new cars (GT3 and the like excepted) are fantastic GT cars in the ilk of the BMW 6 series and Jag XK.

I think it was Colin Goodwin in Autocar who has a 911 2.4S and who said he would love a stripped out and lightened Caymen S in the spirit of the 968 CS or 911 CS and that is the only car from the current line up (GT3 aside) that I would love to own.

As modern cars become more and more efficient and insulate the driver more and more from what is going on at tread level, there will always be people who will seek to regain the feedback and involvement that comes from older and less perfect cars! The Lotus Elise and its ilk are probably the only exception to the march of so-called progress?

Ho hum!

 

[Neil Haughey]

Well some manufacturers do try and keep the weight down, Mazda is a good example the new 2 and the MX-5 both good examples of a modernised car trying to keep it light and nimble. However our new MX-5 as much as we love it doesn't have the feel of the older models but I don't regret this as it has qualities which 99% of the buying public demand such as suspension and seats that don't give you a backache and low noise so you don't have a headache after 1 hour commute.

In this way I suspect the driving patterns and usage today are entirely different from years ago. If I was to spend 20K on another car I want something that can be used for anything, drive to work, drive to visit family or drive across Europe. As intoxicating as the 3.2 carrera or 964 is I don't think I would want to use either for 95% of my driving which means sadly it would be a garage queen and 20 grand wasted IMHO (I don't use my 944 S2 for long journies because it is to noisy and doesn't have air-con so you can guess how I would feel in an old 911). Sorry if this sounds cold hearted.

 

[stevespic]

I dont think its cold hearted, i think the 911 is a required taste....i always wanted a 911 until i traveled in one and i was very disapointed... the ride was (in clarksons words) like being in a old bettle(Sorry 911 owners) the ride was felt harsh and i know i was in a rs but it just didnt feel as new as my 1990 944 even though they were the same year ! after i arrived at our destination i felt quite sick after bouncing around down the motorway one junction... with that and the feeling of having the engine next to my head was enough to put me off for life, Until i drove one, i loved it, the noise and the push felt totaly different once i was in the driving seat and for that reason i fell back in love with the model... not only that but at leaste if something goes wrong then at least you stand a good chance of fixing it your self.[](if your lucky)...

 

[appletonn]

ORIGINAL: Neil Haughey

Well some manufacturers do try and keep the weight down, Mazda is a good example the new 2 and the MX-5 both good examples of a modernised car trying to keep it light and nimble. However our new MX-5 as much as we love it doesn't have the feel of the older models but I don't regret this as it has qualities which 99% of the buying public demand such as suspension and seats that don't give you a backache and low noise so you don't have a headache after 1 hour commute.

In this way I suspect the driving patterns and usage today are entirely different from years ago. If I was to spend 20K on another car I want something that can be used for anything, drive to work, drive to visit family or drive across Europe. As intoxicating as the 3.2 carrera or 964 is I don't think I would want to use either for 95% of my driving which means sadly it would be a garage queen and 20 grand wasted IMHO (I don't use my 944 S2 for long journies because it is to noisy and doesn't have air-con so you can guess how I would feel in an old 911). Sorry if this sounds cold hearted.

You are right that the new Mazda 2 is lighter than its predecessor, however it is still slightly bigger and that was the point I was making. If you look at the size of the latest Fiesta and compare it to the Mk1, it is virtually the same size as the Cortina from that era. I know that that is the price you pay for increased safety and comfort but unfortunately along the way we have also lost the connection with the road - the electric PAS systems being the worst culprits, where artificial extra weight is programmed in, but there is never any actual feel.

I just like the slimmer and more compact feel of the pre '93 911s and as for the comfort/refinement element, I always found mine to be surprisingly adept at motorway mile munching, primarily because the rear mounted engine meant that most of the mechanical noise was left behind you in your wake.

My 964 had one of the best PAS systems i have ever tried, where you could still feel the texture of the road through the rim.

Each to their own...[]

 

[stevep2000]

I'm having a PPI done on a 3.2 this morning, and if all goes well I will hopefully make the leap this afternoon. On almost every objective measure, my S2 is a better car, I have no rational explanation, especially as I may have to virtually give the S2 away due to it's high mileage. I still feel like a kid at Christmas waiting for the call from Peter Morgan though......