SimonExtreme
New member
Sounds fun and interesting. I'm up for it. I wonder if one of the magazines would be interested in sponsoring it! Seems like a corker for Octane or one of the Porsche specialist mags.
Turnover
- Thread starter pauldishman
- Start date
drove a friends totally standard 993targa round Donington yesterday - very suprised - I think the corner entry speeds higher were higher for me than in the 964RS as the car felt as if it allowed you to.. you did'nt get the same feeling however of getting it hooked up mid corner and rocketing out. craner curves 10-15mph slower than in the 964 - but without the buttock clenching fear of the 964!
not a scientific comparison by any means as it was not a 993RS (and also not my car to push a little harder), but to the decidedly average driver such as myself the 993's performance/handling felt more instantly accessible than the 964RS. it also felt more stable under braking
would love to come along to bruntingthorpe if it happens
matt
not a scientific comparison by any means as it was not a 993RS (and also not my car to push a little harder), but to the decidedly average driver such as myself the 993's performance/handling felt more instantly accessible than the 964RS. it also felt more stable under braking
would love to come along to bruntingthorpe if it happens
matt
Matt, a 993 Targa drives very, very differently to the RS, beleive me.
I have to say over the last year or handful of trackdays the only 964 I have encountered that was quick has been Melv's cup car and that does run on slicks to be fair.
I think you have to be an excellent driver to get the very best out of a standard 964RS on track at which point it is as quick as anything.
The good thing about this is that if you are an average driver, then the car gives you more scope to learn and improve your skill level.
I have to say over the last year or handful of trackdays the only 964 I have encountered that was quick has been Melv's cup car and that does run on slicks to be fair.
I think you have to be an excellent driver to get the very best out of a standard 964RS on track at which point it is as quick as anything.
The good thing about this is that if you are an average driver, then the car gives you more scope to learn and improve your skill level.
Some interesting views on speed. Here are a few qualifying times at this years festival at brands
964RSR 51.7 964RSR 54.18 964RS 59.6
the only other "comparable" 993 RS supercup driven by John Bussel 53.9. fair enough these are Porsche Open cars so may be modified to some extent.
My own time for very vague comparison (and timed by later viewing of the small amount of video i have) was 59.9 on standard P zero directionale's ,car is stock driver slow. Better tyres and setup would help!!!
So as far as race cars go not much in it at all.
964RSR 51.7 964RSR 54.18 964RS 59.6
the only other "comparable" 993 RS supercup driven by John Bussel 53.9. fair enough these are Porsche Open cars so may be modified to some extent.
My own time for very vague comparison (and timed by later viewing of the small amount of video i have) was 59.9 on standard P zero directionale's ,car is stock driver slow. Better tyres and setup would help!!!
So as far as race cars go not much in it at all.
SimonExtreme
New member
This leads to an interesting question, namely what makes a car great. It is certainly more than the sum of its cornerling limits and lap times. We have all learned that from the Top Gear lap chart. There are cars mid way down the list I would love to own and some at the top I wouldn't drive if I were given them!
While it is the total package that appeals, if we just look at roadholding and handling, I believe that ultimate grip and prodictable, easy handling doesn't always make a good car. For instance, my Evo had higher levels of grip than probably any production 911 and the limits were very easy to explore. Looking at the lap times above I would also say that it would have been faster around Brands as well. HOWEVER, it was for exactly that reason that I lost interest in the car. Once you get aclimatised to the speed, it gets a bit boring, which is why there is such a big tuning market for Evo's (and Scoobies etc).
On my first trackday in the Evo, it took me about 4 laps of Oulton Park to get to within a second of a pro driver in a same spec car. That wasn't because I was a driving god but because it was easy. I stopped doing trackdays because after a while the room for personal driver development had gone. I actually think my driving ability went backwards due to Evo ownership in as far as I lost some of the feel and finess I hope I used to have (could just be old age though[
])
In contrast, one of the most enjoyable cars I have every owned was a BMW 3.0 CSL which we set up to the same spec as the famous Batmobiles and had a rather special engine (circa 360bhp). That car was a total beast and a real man's car. The race cars had a reputation at the time for being more difficult to drive than an F1 car and although my car was down on power compared with them, this was the only car I have owned that I never really felt I mastered. OK, in those days there weren't the trackdays we have today and more tracktime might have helped but every time I pushed the car, I learned some thing new.
So back to the "which RS is better" debate, it isn't just about lap times, ease of handling etc. For me, with the limited time I have spent in a 993RS, it is the very fact that the handling chas been made more accessable that is one factor in diluting the experience. However, I look forward to being proven wrong if we can get this comparison day to happen. And a final thought............we are arguing over the smallest details of 2 very good cars, 2 cars with the right type of engine and the last real 911's []
While it is the total package that appeals, if we just look at roadholding and handling, I believe that ultimate grip and prodictable, easy handling doesn't always make a good car. For instance, my Evo had higher levels of grip than probably any production 911 and the limits were very easy to explore. Looking at the lap times above I would also say that it would have been faster around Brands as well. HOWEVER, it was for exactly that reason that I lost interest in the car. Once you get aclimatised to the speed, it gets a bit boring, which is why there is such a big tuning market for Evo's (and Scoobies etc).
On my first trackday in the Evo, it took me about 4 laps of Oulton Park to get to within a second of a pro driver in a same spec car. That wasn't because I was a driving god but because it was easy. I stopped doing trackdays because after a while the room for personal driver development had gone. I actually think my driving ability went backwards due to Evo ownership in as far as I lost some of the feel and finess I hope I used to have (could just be old age though[
])In contrast, one of the most enjoyable cars I have every owned was a BMW 3.0 CSL which we set up to the same spec as the famous Batmobiles and had a rather special engine (circa 360bhp). That car was a total beast and a real man's car. The race cars had a reputation at the time for being more difficult to drive than an F1 car and although my car was down on power compared with them, this was the only car I have owned that I never really felt I mastered. OK, in those days there weren't the trackdays we have today and more tracktime might have helped but every time I pushed the car, I learned some thing new.
So back to the "which RS is better" debate, it isn't just about lap times, ease of handling etc. For me, with the limited time I have spent in a 993RS, it is the very fact that the handling chas been made more accessable that is one factor in diluting the experience. However, I look forward to being proven wrong if we can get this comparison day to happen. And a final thought............we are arguing over the smallest details of 2 very good cars, 2 cars with the right type of engine and the last real 911's [
]
simon - you raise a really good point about ultimate grip & predictable handling
a friend of mine has an E30 M3 - fantastic car to drive on track - and far faster round a track than it has any right to be with 'only' 200bhp. I love driving it and know that i am faster round most tracks in it than my RS. Its really predictable and communicative and also forgiving - the car flatters an average driver like myself - and gives great drivers a superb track tool.
the only issue that i (& my mate) have with it is that getting 90-95% out of the car is relatively easy (and can approach being boring almost) whereas with the 964 (for me) its taking me quite a while to get to the 80-90% mark. it also takes me a while longer to build up to speed when going to a new circuit - whereas in the M3 you can get to that 90% very quickly and spend the rest of the day finding those final few percentage points of performance from the car
i appreciate a lot of this is down to driver ability but the fact that the 964 is not as accessible as the M3 (& the 993 targa i drove) is what makes it that bit more special for me - theres always an element of learning, as well as an element of fear when driving it - and i reckon i'll still be learning the car in 3 or 4 years time - so still getting maximum enjoyment out of it..
a friend of mine has an E30 M3 - fantastic car to drive on track - and far faster round a track than it has any right to be with 'only' 200bhp. I love driving it and know that i am faster round most tracks in it than my RS. Its really predictable and communicative and also forgiving - the car flatters an average driver like myself - and gives great drivers a superb track tool.
the only issue that i (& my mate) have with it is that getting 90-95% out of the car is relatively easy (and can approach being boring almost) whereas with the 964 (for me) its taking me quite a while to get to the 80-90% mark. it also takes me a while longer to build up to speed when going to a new circuit - whereas in the M3 you can get to that 90% very quickly and spend the rest of the day finding those final few percentage points of performance from the car
i appreciate a lot of this is down to driver ability but the fact that the 964 is not as accessible as the M3 (& the 993 targa i drove) is what makes it that bit more special for me - theres always an element of learning, as well as an element of fear when driving it - and i reckon i'll still be learning the car in 3 or 4 years time - so still getting maximum enjoyment out of it..
paul howells
New member
I am up for it, would be a great day out,
I am meaning the rs and not standard cars ,dont believe all you read in books!
The 964rsr was the first car i drove in anger, that you could jump straight into and with in a few laps ,get it well out of shape,and get it back on line.
Piece of cake may not be the right word,but the car was very controllable and would brake away at a slightly lower speed than the 993rs.They are very controllable with the correct set up for track work.
The 993 how ever has more lateral grip(fact),there for breaks away at a slightly faster speed and has more weight to contend with, you have to be quicker to gain control. The problem with more grip ,is when they do let go they normally let go with style, try a gt3 rs or cup, this is up another step with regards to grip etc against speed and weight. Again with the correct set up, can be very controllable ,but you need to on the ball with them.
I experienced a gt3 cup car in the 24 hour race at Silverstone the other week, it felt easy to drive physically ,power steering, great chassis, turns in better than any 993,has better lateral grip than my gt2 race car with 335 slicks on the rear! .And i have got a lot to learn to drive and carry the speed the of a 996 cup, to be able to max the grip and times etc
In reality the factory are making a far more superior chassis, with loads more grip, in wet and dry conditions. Can not wait to drive a 997.
I know people say, ah if it was a good driver in that car, the 964 would runs rings around the other cars, not true, put that same good driver in the later cars and he will drive it even faster in all conditions!!!!!
I am meaning the rs and not standard cars ,dont believe all you read in books!
The 964rsr was the first car i drove in anger, that you could jump straight into and with in a few laps ,get it well out of shape,and get it back on line.
Piece of cake may not be the right word,but the car was very controllable and would brake away at a slightly lower speed than the 993rs.They are very controllable with the correct set up for track work.
The 993 how ever has more lateral grip(fact),there for breaks away at a slightly faster speed and has more weight to contend with, you have to be quicker to gain control. The problem with more grip ,is when they do let go they normally let go with style, try a gt3 rs or cup, this is up another step with regards to grip etc against speed and weight. Again with the correct set up, can be very controllable ,but you need to on the ball with them.
I experienced a gt3 cup car in the 24 hour race at Silverstone the other week, it felt easy to drive physically ,power steering, great chassis, turns in better than any 993,has better lateral grip than my gt2 race car with 335 slicks on the rear! .And i have got a lot to learn to drive and carry the speed the of a 996 cup, to be able to max the grip and times etc
In reality the factory are making a far more superior chassis, with loads more grip, in wet and dry conditions. Can not wait to drive a 997.
I know people say, ah if it was a good driver in that car, the 964 would runs rings around the other cars, not true, put that same good driver in the later cars and he will drive it even faster in all conditions!!!!!
Many people will say that the driving enjoyment is far more important than out and out speed. But, of course, once one gets hooked into track days we want to be quick.
Also, going back to the original topic 'Turnover', I'm sure some people buy these track focussed 911s but find they only do the occasional track day and can't justify having so much money tied up in a car that is 'compromised' on the road. So they sell.
Well my solution is - buy a Caterham Superlight.
£15-£20k will buy the most fun you can have on a track in a road legal car. And you'll be quick - very quick. Visibility is fantastic, you can place the front wheels inch perfect. The controls are totally responsive with amazing feed back and the brakes are awesome. Speed through corners is sensational. And, they are very easy to drive fast at the limit - everything is intuitive and predictable. They are also so light that, if they do let go, they spin in a small space.
And, most have a heater, windscreen and once you are snuggled inside, it's like being in a little fighter plane. Trust me.
Also, going back to the original topic 'Turnover', I'm sure some people buy these track focussed 911s but find they only do the occasional track day and can't justify having so much money tied up in a car that is 'compromised' on the road. So they sell.
Well my solution is - buy a Caterham Superlight.
£15-£20k will buy the most fun you can have on a track in a road legal car. And you'll be quick - very quick. Visibility is fantastic, you can place the front wheels inch perfect. The controls are totally responsive with amazing feed back and the brakes are awesome. Speed through corners is sensational. And, they are very easy to drive fast at the limit - everything is intuitive and predictable. They are also so light that, if they do let go, they spin in a small space.
And, most have a heater, windscreen and once you are snuggled inside, it's like being in a little fighter plane. Trust me.
Oliver I think you just missed the point of what 90% of people have been saying. You can go quick in a lot of other cars and many are a lot easier to drive on the limit. The reason many choose the 964 RS is the challenge that it provides, the speed is secondary.
I would sooner drive to the ring or Spa in my compromised RS than in any superlight and heaven forbid i would sooner have an accident in it too.
Oh and on the way back i usually pick up several boxes of wine and a few crates of beer travelling two up. that's if I don't go on from Spa for a week long touring holiday. Will the superlight do that?
I would sooner drive to the ring or Spa in my compromised RS than in any superlight and heaven forbid i would sooner have an accident in it too.
Oh and on the way back i usually pick up several boxes of wine and a few crates of beer travelling two up. that's if I don't go on from Spa for a week long touring holiday. Will the superlight do that?
SimonExtreme
New member
It would be interesting to compare lap times of cup races over the years to see just how much things have progressed. I hope we can have this "test" day because then we can get a g-force meter and see which car has most lateral grip, etc. Even then, it isn't necessarily conclusive. Different car set ups suit different drivers as each driver has their own style. Prost and Senna used to drive the same cars with very different suspension and wing settings. Now, we might not all drive as well as they do but that can make even more difference.
As for the Caterham, they are fantastic but of very little use for anything else other than track. I would have one in my "ultimate" garage but it wouldn't get used that often. And it would have to have a trailer!
As for the Caterham, they are fantastic but of very little use for anything else other than track. I would have one in my "ultimate" garage but it wouldn't get used that often. And it would have to have a trailer!
Apologies for bringing the Caterham up, but it is a realistic option. A significant number of Caterham owners also have a 911.
The Caterham is still a challenging car to drive. It is less unpredictable than a 911, but it has less grip, unless you run slicks, so the fun and reward is always there.
Caterhams are safer than most people realise. I wouldn't like to have a 'head on' with an HGV, but on track they feel fantastically safe, and of course there is a wide choice of roll cages. Incidentally, in the unlikely event of a shunt in a Caterham it is normally cheap and easy to repair.
Simon, most road registered Caterhams are used regularly on the road and they make great road cars. I've got to go to Cornwall and back one day soon (450 miles there and back) and I'll probably take the Caterham. It cruises at 80 on the M4 and when I get to the twisty bits it'll be awesome. Mine's 'Touring' spec., although, in six years, I've never put the hood up and I don't dress at Millets - I've got a tonneau and a clever 'half hood' that is brilliant.
The Caterham is still a challenging car to drive. It is less unpredictable than a 911, but it has less grip, unless you run slicks, so the fun and reward is always there.
Caterhams are safer than most people realise. I wouldn't like to have a 'head on' with an HGV, but on track they feel fantastically safe, and of course there is a wide choice of roll cages. Incidentally, in the unlikely event of a shunt in a Caterham it is normally cheap and easy to repair.
Simon, most road registered Caterhams are used regularly on the road and they make great road cars. I've got to go to Cornwall and back one day soon (450 miles there and back) and I'll probably take the Caterham. It cruises at 80 on the M4 and when I get to the twisty bits it'll be awesome. Mine's 'Touring' spec., although, in six years, I've never put the hood up and I don't dress at Millets - I've got a tonneau and a clever 'half hood' that is brilliant.
SimonExtreme
New member
Oliver
You sound as mad as my brother. In his first Caterham he did 18,000 miles a year for 2 years. That's what I call true dedication! However, he now has a Superlight which he sprints and uses for trackdays and he has come to the conclusion that you need to trail to be able to use it properly.Either that, or he was spending all his time swapping wheels. Even now, he uses different tyres for sprints to trackdays and if he ahd the car on the road as well, he would be up to 3 sets of wheels (I think he has about 5 sets really but some are spares!)
As for driving a Caterham, I totally agree with you about how much fun they are. They really are a joy to drive and being as old fashioned as I am, a tail happy car with the engine in the right (wrong) place with next to no weight is just soooo good. And as you say, their handling is very predicatable without losing the thrills. I would have one in my ultimate garage, but along side my 964RS. As an aside, when my brother drove my Porsche, his comment was that it was like a tintop version of the Caterham.
You sound as mad as my brother. In his first Caterham he did 18,000 miles a year for 2 years. That's what I call true dedication! However, he now has a Superlight which he sprints and uses for trackdays and he has come to the conclusion that you need to trail to be able to use it properly.Either that, or he was spending all his time swapping wheels. Even now, he uses different tyres for sprints to trackdays and if he ahd the car on the road as well, he would be up to 3 sets of wheels (I think he has about 5 sets really but some are spares!)
As for driving a Caterham, I totally agree with you about how much fun they are. They really are a joy to drive and being as old fashioned as I am, a tail happy car with the engine in the right (wrong) place with next to no weight is just soooo good. And as you say, their handling is very predicatable without losing the thrills. I would have one in my ultimate garage, but along side my 964RS. As an aside, when my brother drove my Porsche, his comment was that it was like a tintop version of the Caterham.
Now we're talking... As the proud owner of a track oriented 964rs and a track oriented Caterham Superlight R I have a bit of previous here. For an hour's blast at the weekend, I prefer the Caterham (no screen, hood etc, just the helmet). For a longer haul to a distant trackday or as a half way tenable practical car the rs wins.
On track both are great. I am an OK Caterham driver but a very poor rs driver at present (this is all about only having had the rs a few months and clearly nothing to do with inate ability). As things stand, I prefer the Caterham on track but only because I am comfortable with it and fast. There is a load to learn in the rs and for that reason it is a great experience. Horses for courses I guess, but both top-notch motors. I got the rs exactly because of its conceptual similarities to my Caterham.
There is a 993rs owner who also owns a Caterham fireblade and might well be talked into some comparison event!
On track both are great. I am an OK Caterham driver but a very poor rs driver at present (this is all about only having had the rs a few months and clearly nothing to do with inate ability). As things stand, I prefer the Caterham on track but only because I am comfortable with it and fast. There is a load to learn in the rs and for that reason it is a great experience. Horses for courses I guess, but both top-notch motors. I got the rs exactly because of its conceptual similarities to my Caterham.
There is a 993rs owner who also owns a Caterham fireblade and might well be talked into some comparison event!
SimonExtreme
New member
Right! It seems we are heading for a really fun day. Caterham owners welcome! What could be better - a chance to compare the ultimate 911 with the 993RS[] and then compare the Porsche experience with the Caterham's. I really do think this is the making of a great article for Octane or similar[]
] and then compare the Porsche experience with the Caterham's. I really do think this is the making of a great article for Octane or similar[]
Ninemeister
New member
First of all can I stick my name in the hat for a day out playing with RS's so we can all compare notes, I am definitely up for dragging my 993RS CS out of the garage.
Now, on to the topic in question. Because we are comparing RS's we have to keep in mind that this stands for Rennsport or Racing, so comparing the behaviour of the cars on the road is largely academc as they can only really be used to the full on the track. So, that said, these comments are based on the fact that I have (part)owned both a 964RSCS and 993RSCS, driven them both on track and had the opportunity to drive and play with many more.
In my opinion the 964RS is the most complete track day car that Porsche have ever and will ever build. Relatively speaking it is "right" straight out of the box and provided due care is taken in learning its manners, it can be driven at or near the limit very quickly by anyone with early 911 track experience. Then we come to the engine, which is an absolute peach, ripe for tuning. We regularly see remapped standard engines making 290-300bhp on our dyno, fit Motec and 320-330bhp comes easily and a pair of cams with same makes 340-350bhp. So, for around a £40k total expenditure you can have a tintop with around 300bhp/tonne, and this will take a lot of beating.
So, what about the 993RS? Bigger wheels, bigger brakes, softer chassis, extra 100kg and a 3.8 engine that struggles to make 300bhp in most cases. The gearbox is a gem and reflects my one dislike of the 964RS - I love the extra gear, closer ratios and light/slick change. On paper there is not much going for it, but in practise they are very fast once you learn to push them to the limits and providing the engine is on the nail, the grip of the chassis will easily make up for the 100kg deficit on the faster tracks. However they do need tweeking to get them to "feel" right, the GT2 solid rear subframe bushes are an absolute must have along with revised geometry. Coming from a modified SC/3.2 background I initially found the 993RS on track difficult to find the limits, and even now after 4 years I still feel that I have only just got to grips with it although it helps when you have over 400bhp to push it along.
And that brings me on to the 993RS engine. Again in my opinion (backed up be many dyno tests and a lot of development time) Porsche got the numbers wrong in the design of the intake system and heads which makes them extremely finiky to tune correctly, so the best that you could expect from a standard engine will be around 315bhp if you are lucky, and even with cams 330bhp is a struggle without spending a lot more on new heads & intake.
There is no correct answer, both cars are different, but given that the 993RS shares its chassis and brakes with the GT2 it does have a much greater potential for handling increased power, but to achieve this the modifications required are far greater than the 964. Talk about catch 22. The bottom line comes down to money.
Personally I do not value RHD over LHD for a track car, so ignoring the position of the steering wheel, given a budget of £35-40k I would buy the 964RS and spend any change on Motec. With £45k I would still go for a 964RS CS rather than a standard 993RS whereas with £50k to spend I would definitely go for a (LHD) 993RS CS (and start saving for engine mods).
Now, on to the topic in question. Because we are comparing RS's we have to keep in mind that this stands for Rennsport or Racing, so comparing the behaviour of the cars on the road is largely academc as they can only really be used to the full on the track. So, that said, these comments are based on the fact that I have (part)owned both a 964RSCS and 993RSCS, driven them both on track and had the opportunity to drive and play with many more.
In my opinion the 964RS is the most complete track day car that Porsche have ever and will ever build. Relatively speaking it is "right" straight out of the box and provided due care is taken in learning its manners, it can be driven at or near the limit very quickly by anyone with early 911 track experience. Then we come to the engine, which is an absolute peach, ripe for tuning. We regularly see remapped standard engines making 290-300bhp on our dyno, fit Motec and 320-330bhp comes easily and a pair of cams with same makes 340-350bhp. So, for around a £40k total expenditure you can have a tintop with around 300bhp/tonne, and this will take a lot of beating.
So, what about the 993RS? Bigger wheels, bigger brakes, softer chassis, extra 100kg and a 3.8 engine that struggles to make 300bhp in most cases. The gearbox is a gem and reflects my one dislike of the 964RS - I love the extra gear, closer ratios and light/slick change. On paper there is not much going for it, but in practise they are very fast once you learn to push them to the limits and providing the engine is on the nail, the grip of the chassis will easily make up for the 100kg deficit on the faster tracks. However they do need tweeking to get them to "feel" right, the GT2 solid rear subframe bushes are an absolute must have along with revised geometry. Coming from a modified SC/3.2 background I initially found the 993RS on track difficult to find the limits, and even now after 4 years I still feel that I have only just got to grips with it although it helps when you have over 400bhp to push it along.
And that brings me on to the 993RS engine. Again in my opinion (backed up be many dyno tests and a lot of development time) Porsche got the numbers wrong in the design of the intake system and heads which makes them extremely finiky to tune correctly, so the best that you could expect from a standard engine will be around 315bhp if you are lucky, and even with cams 330bhp is a struggle without spending a lot more on new heads & intake.
There is no correct answer, both cars are different, but given that the 993RS shares its chassis and brakes with the GT2 it does have a much greater potential for handling increased power, but to achieve this the modifications required are far greater than the 964. Talk about catch 22. The bottom line comes down to money.
Personally I do not value RHD over LHD for a track car, so ignoring the position of the steering wheel, given a budget of £35-40k I would buy the 964RS and spend any change on Motec. With £45k I would still go for a 964RS CS rather than a standard 993RS whereas with £50k to spend I would definitely go for a (LHD) 993RS CS (and start saving for engine mods).
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