1991 Turbo, 25,000 Miles: £20,000 - Discuss

[pauljmcnulty]

I disagree with the low miles cars seize up and implode perspective

I tihnk it works both ways. A genuine low-miles car has a value you can't replicate on a higher-mileage example, so if it's important to a buyer, then the pool of cars for sale is very small. If you're going to throw £20K at restoring a 944, you wouldn't start with a lux that's been round the clock three times: mileage, owners, more sought-after models, it all counts at that level.

But, there is merit in judging a car by condition, not mileage. It's a simple fact that some things are age-related, not mileage-related. Anything rubber, including tyres, body seals, engine seals, belts (not unheard of for them to be over 10 years old) or clutch dampers, they MIGHT all need replacing on a car that's done minimal mileage. Rust is rust, and if you leave a 944 in a field it'll corrode despite not being used daily! Fuel lines, brake lines, they're all possible areas of concern in a 25-year-old car, even if it's never been driven.

The car here is a good example. It looks perfect, and should be with only 25K on it, but it has had the calipers overhauled and wheels refurbed. Just as a 250K car would have had.

There's another type of car to consider, and I think those are the ones we're talking about when we say "don't turn the key". A car that's been laid up for a very long period might well seize up or implode, so that's a different case from a low-miles, but exceptionally well maintained, car.

I don't really know where I come down on this. Looking at it sensibly, my S2 has cost me, realistically, £12K or so, and it needs plenty more work doing such as a complete suspension overhaul. I genuinely couldn't get it to the standard of this turbo for another £8K, and it would still be a car with 6 times the mileage. Buying the £20K car should be the sensible option, really. But, mine's served me well for 25K miles: that's the entire mileage of the turbo in my short ownership, and it lives outside in all weathers. Pound for pound, I think I'd ruin the value of a mint car in a couple of years. They need to be locked away to keep that low-mileage USP, and that's a shame for a car that was built to be used.

 

[DC911SC]

Coming into this late, but I would say that 20k is a good starting point - whether it has actually sold or not!

Having seen some of the other less desirable 944s going about for £10k+ in the last year, including a cabrio with a towbar if I remember correctly then thats pretty fair.

My last one was IMO mint at 60 odd k miles and the interior was much less creased than that one......may he just sat in it!

A little OT but do you not just love the turbo stance straight on at the front! I'd rather have another of those again than an SC all day long!

 

[Indi9xx]

I think that those who have been talking down the values in recent years have mostly seen the light by the look of the comments on this thread. Usually a thread like this in here would have had 90% negative comments about someone advertising one at such a price. Which is good to see.

I have been saying for the last 10 years that good 944's have finished depreciating and the prices would start to go up and eventually will go ballistic and many people for years have said I was mad. But I did think that when it happened it would be a little less dramatic than this, with perhaps prices just begining to climb eventually, rather than mint low mile examples suddenly being worth £20k however there have been some unusual forces at play in the market.

Over the last 4 years of recession, I think two market forces have been at play.. People have been reluctant to lavish money on 944's (or any Porsche in many cases) and therefore many examples as gone down hill with many being resigned to the scrap heap, which has resulted in less supply.

On the other hand, 4 years of recession has also meant very few people having money for "toys" and therefore a period which may have delayed the rise in prices which I knew would come.

In addition to this, retro Porsche have suddenly seen a lot of interest in other countries around the world. Especially in markets like Australia and the far east... Especially with Australia allowing pre 89 classic cars to be imported tax free. In the last two years I have seen many of my customers with really nice pre 89 Porsche sell their cars unseen to Australian buyers.. So those cars have all vanished from the UK pool of cars in circulation.

We used to have many more left hand drive Porsche in the UK, they used to be a cheap alternative.. Many used to come through the doors of my workshop at JMG, now the only ones I see are from my customers in France, Belgium and Holand. The reason for this is during the recession the pound became very weak against the Euro, at a time when (it seems to me) that the older Porsche models seemed to get a rise in polularity in Europe... So all of a sudden to European buyers it seemed like a good idea to come over here and buy left hand drive Porsche at bargain prices. 18 months ago I sold my very nice LHD Cobalt Blue 968 Lux to a chap in France for £14k sight unseen and he felt he got a bargain, I too was pleased as at the time a RHD 968 in the UK was only worth £6k to £8k with similar mileage, but I knew when I advertised it to take into account it was left hand drive, so I advertised it for what I had noticed they were selling for in Europe with an adjustment for the exchange rate.

Lastly recessions do an interesting thing to both the gold and classic car markets. During a recession you notice that traditional investments become poor performers, so after a few months the value of gold shoots up as people move money into that from the traditional investment models... But eventually that market tops out so therefore it also becomes a poor performer.. So some people look to the classic car market to invest, as the sensible money knows that after a recession classic cars will rise in value, as they do after many recessions (remember the early 90s?).

Some of the rise following a recession can be over inflated and a bubble could be forming, which could pop.. I don't think so with the 944. but I do suspect it might be the case with the pre 964 911's... they seem to have more than quadrupled in value in the last year or two and I think they will rise even further.

Those that remember the early 90's tail end of the recession where classic car values shot through the roof, where an E-Type jag went from being worth £15k up to £100k over the course of a year will remember the bubble, which even spread into people trading waiting list positions and orders for new supercars for up to twice the book price, which when it popped it popped in a big way.. Jag E-Types went back down to pre bubble prices or less, and many super car manufacturers had people not turning up to collect cars and walking away from deposits.

However, back then there way just the bubble which made the prices, this time we have many other forces as mentioned, which have changed the supply levels of Porsche in such a way which on its own could actually explain the price increases. There could be a bubble, it could pop, but there is no way that hundreds of Porsche which have been scrapped or exported in the last 4 years will suddenly re-appear on the market.. So I think what you see with 944 prices now is a trend which will continue, bubble or no bubble.

With the pre 89 911's though, I think they will continue to rise, but if a bubble exists and it pops, I think they will only return to current values as a worst case scenario, as there are too many exported for them to be called a bubble and for the bubble to pop.

Its not just turbo's though, I think that the Lux, S and S2 values have risen.. People poo-poo'ed a couple of S2's which I sold a couple of years ago for £6k to £7k, shortly afterwards that kind of price became the norm for a nice one, and now it really is the norm for a good one, with some selling with low mileages for £13k to £15k.

A few years ago a pre 85 lux was worth about as much as the engine, £800 to £1500.. Now even a ropey one without an MOT and rotten sills is worth that.

Things have changed, and I think the mad thing is that the days of a 944 turbo as being a cheap trackday toy are ending, it used to be that you could buy a 944 turbo for £5k in great condition, and at that money the typical pistonhead member would buy one not because he knew how great they were on track, but because he knew they were good on track and they were £5k.. Now it is a case that a good one is worth £10k, so many of those buyers will go for a used Boxster, Cayman or 996.

The buyers I see now for 944 turbos tend to be a different crowd than 5 years ago, when 50% of the new owners I met had bought them because they were under valued and worth putting on a track compared with other cars out there, often only finding out how good they are after they have bought one... Now the buyers seem to be people who buy them because they really want one and often they want it to be standard, clean and with sub 130,000 miles and seem to be people willing to spend money on them again.

Just my thoughts though.. I think the 944's will continue to rise, with Turbos being worth twice what they are now in a couple of years or less.

 

[MartinRS2K]

A very good read Jon and I hope you are correct with your assumptions as both my Turbo and my 964 Anniversary have 50,000 miles and FSH []

My friend lives in Australia and due to the size of the country it seems that 300,00km 944's are the norm and a low mileage car sells for the equivalent of £15-20k

The low mileage 944 Silver Rose that was exported to Australia by Gmund 18 months ago for about £19,000 is currently up for sale at $56,995 AUS (£31,580)

http://www.classicthrottleshop.com/modernclassic2.html

 

[Hallsy]

Never mind the Turbo, Paul Stephens now have a 2.7 Lux up for £15k in similar timewarp condition!!

 

[Monkeythree]

The market is the market.......!

http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/news/default.asp?storyId=30117

 

[Indi9xx]

The only thing I would add is that I have found that many of the super low mileage Porsche I look after with less than 1000 miles per year average, do become a little expensive to recommission and get up to scratch, usually due to having to replace every single rubber on the car, which usually might have been replaced due to wear on a normal mileage car.

You can put a Porsche into a climate controlled garage to keep it tip top, but as soon as you drive something like that after 20+ years the rubber items begin to fall apart, the problem is that these parts perish due to age and oxygen contact and there is little you can do in storage to avoid this.. So although a sub 30k mile car may seem like you get a new car, if you drive it even just a little after purchase it is likely to need a couple of £K to get it really driving like its mileage should suggest.

Having said that, a low mileage car is a low mileage car, you are buying apeal to not only yourself, but future buyers when you invest in lower mileage, so it is still well worth while making that extra investment.

Having said that, a well maintained Porsche need never be old or drive like anything but a new one and I have still never had to change a Porsche engine due to wear.. So in the real world mileage means very little, but it does to investers and the buying public

 

[Frenchy]

Absolutely Definitely without question not selling my Turbo S now, i like it too much, wish i had the cash to keep my 86 car which ended up having a few mechancal issues with new ownership, nowt that would not has not fixed !
History from Day 1 never knocked, bashed or welded totally solid having never seen a winter for many a year,all original apart from good quality cosmetic paint.
Money in the bank that one.
Lots of the 80's early 90's performance car's are going up (some ballistic) price wise E30 M3'S, Quattro's,Cosworth etc AIrcooled Pork.
The stumbling point for 944's has been IMO the " poor man's" Porsche label, cheeky prick at work commented that i had bought a "proper" Porsche when he was told i had bought a 997.
He knows FA about cars BTW, But that is the perceived image by most people.

 

[ChasR]

The chaps I know reckon my car is worth about 2-3k, thinking the best Turbos go for around £4k... It's funny how they have taken note of the Nissan S13 and S14 price rises mind you.

 

[944 man]

I have no issue with the cars being valuable. My past comments have all referred to quality of the cars offered, rather than their worth if they have been as good as the carefully chequer-vacuumed load deck carpets have suggested...

 

[Hallsy]

I think the only issue I have with an extra low mileage car being very valuable, is that if you use it, it will devalue due to mileage, but also cost you money as the perishable perish, and over a longer time period, wear parts wear out.

Buy a car with big mileage for less in the first place, and you'll probably find most of the wear parts have been replaced.

It's a funny thing, the obsession with low mileage cars, maybe it's the reason I have never owned one!! I think lowest mileage car I had was a Clio 182 which was on 80k. I felt the mileage was pretty low, but when I came to sell it (approx 84k), I had people talking it down for being almost 100k!

 

[944 man]

Provided that the ridiculous and obvious nonsense (which used to be popular here) that a 200,000 mile car is better than a 20,000 car isn't given any credence, then I will be happy.

 

[DavidL]

ORIGINAL: 944 man

Provided that the ridiculous and obvious nonsense (which used to be popular here) that a 200,000 mile car is better than a 20,000 car isn't given any credence, then I will be happy.

It might be, it might not be. There's nothing obvious about it one way or the other. And its been done to death over and over. Lets not go there again.

 

[pauljmcnulty]

A 944 with 200K on the clock, with £20K recently spent on it, for sale at £2K, might be a better buy than a 944 with 20K on the clock, needing £20K-worth of work, up for sale for £20K?

Put like that, it's simple. []

 

[PAUL RUDDY]

ORIGINAL: pauljmcnulty

A 944 with 200K on the clock, with £20K recently spent on it, for sale at £2K, might be a better buy than a 944 with 20K on the clock, needing £20K-worth of work, up for sale for £20K?

Put like that, it's simple. []

 

[ChasR]

ORIGINAL: pauljmcnulty

A 944 with 200K on the clock, with £20K recently spent on it, for sale at £2K, might be a better buy than a 944 with 20K on the clock, needing £20K-worth of work, up for sale for £20K?

Put like that, it's simple. []

My final 2p.

When I was selling my 951 a chap offered me about £500 more than the car he bought with 80k less. The result? He has ended up doing the jobs on that car which mine has had already done (new discs, refurbing the callipers due to plate lift, belts, fuel lines etc.). OK his car may be more valuable now, but after spending that much (not to mention time) you do have to ask.... In that time I probably put another 4,000 miles onto my car.

However, there is something about a well kept low mileage car, but they are more show queen territory rather than outright driver's cars potentially speaking.

 

[MartinRS2K]

A 200,000 mile 944 Turbo that has had lots of work done to it will possibly be a great car but will only be worth what a 200,000 mile car is worth. It will never increase in value much

A 20,000 mile low owner FSH Turbo may need serviceable items, but if it has been maintained then the interior, body and components should all be in much better shape and this car will (or should) increase in value in the coming 5-10 years.

Yes I know they are never going to be worth crazy money like a 964 RS or 993 Turbo but I can see lower mileage 944 Turbo's and S2's breaking £20k in the coming years for cars that are used less but are still maintained to a high standard.

My 944 Turbo has only done 3,000 miles in 2 years, but it has been into Hartech for a full health check and service with new belts fitted and as a precaution a new water pump fitted. It will be maintained properly regardless of how many miles it does in a year []

 

[pauljmcnulty]

As I've said, if it's mileage that's the ONLY consideration, you can't restore that. Legally, anyway...[]

That means a low-miles car will always have that unique extra value, but of course you can't use it much, and it'll still cost the same for many of the major jobs it needs.

They make no sense as a car that's used a lot. That's where having a fat file of recent receipts means infinitely more than mileage.

The market for museum-pieces is small, and the numbers of cars tiny, so it's a unique market IMO.

 

[Neil Haughey]

The cars are just to old for low miles to have much meaning IMHO apart from idiot collectors. If one was in the market however for a late 986S then yes its a no brainer to look for low miles as you will be bagging a bargain. This is the thing I have never understood about low miles and values as it only really comes into play when a car is either almost new or quite old, never at the age where it really matters which is for several year old to 10 year old cars.

 

[Greg James]

Idiot collectors is a bit harsh. These people push up values so we can hopefully after we have had our fun sell them for what they have cost us. And give an incentive to spend the money keeping them on the road.