1991 Turbo, 25,000 Miles: £20,000 - Discuss

[OLD_ian]

The fundamental problem is that there isn't enough housing in London. NIMBY planning departments in local government mean that not enough has been built/is being built. Beyond that it's simple supply and demand. Unlike the bubble that ended in 2008, this time people can afford their mortgages.

ORIGINAL: pauljmcnulty

I think Paul the difference is that this time round its money from the east which is creating much more demand then there was when many of these things where made or in the recent past. In other words the bubble probably has a bit further to go yet which is scary.

A valid point.

My stepson wanted to buy his rented studio apartment in Waterloo last year, worth about £450K at the time. The landlord was asking nearer £700K, as there was so much Russian, Japanese and Chinese money flowing in to central London.

With that level of discrepancy between real values, and money (much of it suspect) looking for a secure place to "hide", there's a way to go yet with UK investments.

Of course, we could still get UKIP acheiving a significant vote at the elections next year. That will see foreign money disappear overnight.

 

[George Elliott]

What you have to remember with a factory standard 951 is, if it costs £20k or £40k, and it has 100 miles or 100,000 miles, it would struggle performance wise with a VW 2.0TDI.

Therefore some element of consideration must go to bringing these wonderful cars to life, releasing the driving machine that is buried under the restrictive boost and tuning.

George
944t

 

[PSH]

ORIGINAL: George Elliott

What you have to remember with a factory standard 951 is, if it costs £20k or £40k, and it has 100 miles or 100,000 miles, it would struggle performance wise with a VW 2.0TDI.

Therefore some element of consideration must go to bringing these wonderful cars to life, releasing the driving machine that is buried under the restrictive boost and tuning.

George
944t

hmmmm...err yer... what George said...haha

Pete

 

[ChasR]

ORIGINAL: George Elliott

What you have to remember with a factory standard 951 is, if it costs £20k or £40k, and it has 100 miles or 100,000 miles, it would struggle performance wise with a VW 2.0TDI.

Therefore some element of consideration must go to bringing these wonderful cars to life, releasing the driving machine that is buried under the restrictive boost and tuning.

George
944t

I agree with most of what you are saying (consideration against modern machinery), but I reckon even a stock 220 could see a pair of clean heels to a VW 2.0 TDi with the DSG. Christ, my Mondeo V6 does 1/4 million miles on the clock (ok, only just about saw it off), and that is a 200BHP car weighing over 1600kg.

 

[MRGT]

ORIGINAL: George Elliott

What you have to remember with a factory standard 951 is, if it costs £20k or £40k, and it has 100 miles or 100,000 miles, it would struggle performance wise with a VW 2.0TDI.

George
944t

And would leave an E-type Jag in its wake at the first corner (assuming the Jag didn't run out of petrol first [] ) . Doesn't stop people paying ridiculous money for them though []

 

[Neil Haughey]

I don't think that was his point, more that with some basic mods the cars improve hugely and this is certainly true. I don't think that is necessarily true any more for modern cars which are already tuned to maximise engine performance, or suspension already tuned to maximise grip and road holding.

 

[George Elliott]

I don't think that was his point, more that with some basic mods the cars improve hugely

In a nutshell
thx Neil
[]

 

[GPF]

Very interesting discussion chaps, and some good points to mull over []

I do expect the values of some of the rarer models will continue to rise over the next few years, and that will pull the others up too - certainly relative to other classics.

I keep wondering what to do with Ferdie.

I'm definitely keeping him for the foreseeable - partly because I expect him to go up in value, but mainly because he is one of the family!

However, looking to future values I think that he would ultimately be worth a lot more if I had kept him absolutely standard and I keep pondering putting him back that way at some point - maybe even putting the big turbo sticker back on the front wing that I had removed as soon as I bought him!

I have kept all the standard engine bits/body parts/CS wheels etc that have been replaced over the years, but I like him as he now is so really can't see it happening - plus the extra power is nice even if he is my sensible weekender now! []

He's also just about to come up to 150k which will limit his ultimate value of course, not sure how much though. I wonder what the average mileage of each model is now?

For now I'm just going to continue to enjoy driving him though, and maybe do a bit of tidying. Also need to get him on a dyno at some point - not been on for a long time and the 330 should be a lot closer to 370-380 now []

 

[TTM]

A car with such a low mileage can be worth a premium... not for the reason it's got a low mileage per se, but because considering its age it still looks sharp, straight and does not seem to have had enough of a varied driving life to have possibly got messed with by too many different owners/mechanics. If I look at the pictures in the ad, I have seen more than once cars with 10x this mileage looking just as good and fresh. In fact, on this white car I would be suspicious of the odd panel alignment between the front panel and the pop ups. Could some of the front panels have been taken off to be repainted (stone chips) then reinstalled by someone with limited 944 experience...

What I will say, and this is talking from experience, is that if you work with people who know these cars inside and out you can get a clean shell from the breakers, have it nicely repainted, and reassemble the car with good used components to look just like this one. The give away will be the condition of the inner trim - carpets, cloth, leather, plastic, etc, which are not all available from new.

A low mileage 944 is a nonesense to me and the only interest I can see in such an example is being a picture of how a type of car looked shortly after it rolled off the production line. Its best place would be in a museum or in the garage of a collector who will never ever drive it.

 

[George Elliott]

He's also just about to come up to 150k which will limit his ultimate value of course,

Not at all Graham, when people talk of 2.7 Carrera RS models, mileage, corrosion, been thru a hedge, rolled, re-shelled, engine replace, - these things are all conveniently blurred into a history / ownership records. A 2.7 with 80k miles, or 120k miles, or 200k miles? values for each..? Would we believe the miles, or history [8|], -- I'd accept it may be vaguely accurate at best.

With the exception of a few (handful SCOM?) of real Original panel, genuine matching numbers cars, most of them are old cars restored with varying degrees of skill to create the shiny old charmer with the duck-tail and magical engine note.

Our cars will not rise to their heights, but well maintained lightly modded cars will continue to appreciate along the lines of early impact bumpers.

What our cars have is vastly superior body shells and mechanicals, and that quality will stand to the model long term. Compare an air-cooled 911 turbo for example, and we don't have head studs rotting and pulling out of the crank-cases.

Finally, we have the saga of mega negativity which has held back the model values for a decade. There is 30% value recovery to come from this alone.

George
944t

 

[George Elliott]

I would be suspicious of the odd panel alignment between the front panel and the pop ups.

I always look there too, this is a highly skilled alignment task which requires patience and practise

good point TTM

George
944t

 

[pauljmcnulty]

I think George makes a good point there. I keep banging on about the sheer build quality of the 944 compared with it's contemporaries, but it's possibly one reason they aren't valued higher?

Try to find a really good '80s Alfa now. Or a Lancia? An Excel, or a Capri? Wherever you look there are very few mass-produced cars (the 944 is a mass-produced Porsche) from that period in good condition for the price of a Lux, and even pretty awful cars are getting towards silly money!

Half the problem with the 944 is that it sold so well, and didn't fall apart. With so many still on the road, you're not going to have to look far when buying one: there's probably a good selection within an hour of most of us.

Two things will happen IMO. Firstly, more people will gravitate to the more desirable versions, seeing a long-term investment. That's obviously the very early cars, the early turbos, and rarities like the turbo cab or turbo S. Being honest, if you're planning to future-proof when buying a 944 you'd probably not start with an S2, or an oval-dash Lux, would you? These are the models that will be used, not closeted-away.

Secondly, we'll see more people buying bad cars. That's a shame, but rising prices means that the scrap cut-off becomes far higher. You used to be able to get £800 for a Lux as a scrap car, so those ropey examples that failed the MOT ended up in parts. Now, people will see a £20K turbo for sale, and that rusty Lux advertised for £2K seems a bargain. I think there will be a rise in the posts from new owners who've had the list of repairs needed at the first service, and be shocked that it's more than the car is worth. [&o]

Still think that the market will "adjust" downwards when interest rates rise, though. Having lived through three boom/bust cycles it does look like we're in that overly-optimistic boom period...

 

[Neil Haughey]

Some good points guys. When we were building the race car I had all sorts of worries about the body shell as it had 2 palm sized patches at the rear of the sill on both sides. The front wings were rotten at the bottom after coming off. Well it was somewhat of a surprise that after going through the dip back came back a more or less perfect looking grey steel body shell with just those two patches missing. This was a car which lived outside for 10 of the last 20 years till that point and had done 160k miles.

BTW I am still on my factory original engines bottom end, 172k miles now 4 years after building into a track/race dedicated car.

These really are about as close as anyone is going to get to bullet proof in the automotive world.

 

[Ru2S7]

VW 2.0 TDI's having nothing to offer north of about 80mph. Took on a 14 plate Scirocco TDI 170 (it had a red 'i') in my S2 and i was all over him. The TT TDI is also easy meat. Christ, even a 14 plate E350 CDI Coupe couldn't take me!

 

[MartinRS2K]

ORIGINAL: pauljmcnulty

I think George makes a good point there. I keep banging on about the sheer build quality of the 944 compared with it's contemporaries, but it's possibly one reason they aren't valued higher?

Try to find a really good '80s Alfa now. Or a Lancia? An Excel, or a Capri? Wherever you look there are very few mass-produced cars (the 944 is a mass-produced Porsche) from that period in good condition for the price of a Lux, and even pretty awful cars are getting towards silly money!

Half the problem with the 944 is that it sold so well, and didn't fall apart. With so many still on the road, you're not going to have to look far when buying one: there's probably a good selection within an hour of most of us.

I totally agree with this. The build quality of 944's and the quantity of cars available has kept prices lower than they deserve. Prices will only rise when it becomes a demand out stripping the supply. I differ in that I feel there are fewer low mileage cars out there so these are already moving upwards but as the cars that are beyond economical repair are broken for parts and numbers reduce then the prices should move upwards for most models in time.

Porsche have already started re making the sills due to demand, and if they can bring the price of genuine wings down in price this will help keep more cars on the road and stop more cars being scrapped due to the cost of fixing them.

Mechanically, interior quality and performance make the 944 a far better car than similar performance cars like the Ford Sierra Cosworth, BMW E30 M3 and Lancia Delta Integrale but the value is less due to available supply of cars and the perceived tag that 944's are not quick or proper Porsches []

I've owned Cosworths and M3's and neither is built like the 944 and neither was as reliable mechanically or electrically.

 

[ChasR]

ORIGINAL: Ru2S7

VW 2.0 TDI's having nothing to offer north of about 80mph. Took on a 14 plate Scirocco TDI 170 (it had a red 'i') in my S2 and i was all over him. The TT TDI is also easy meat. Christ, even a 14 plate E350 CDI Coupe couldn't take me!

I found a similar thing with a friend's Passat 2.0 (PD) TDI 140 DSG. It was gutless below 2k, and then it went very swiftly! But yes, that pace does seem to go a little after 90ish, as does the MPG...).

A 135i however could quite easily trouble stock 944s IMO. I am surprised at just how swift they feel from the low end right to the top!

 

[Ru2S7]

135i? the twin turbo V6 one? That's in a different league to my S2, still doesn't look as good though []

 

[George Elliott]

When did BMW launch the V6?
[8|][8|][8|]

 

[MartinRS2K]

It's a 3L bi turbo 6 cylinder inline engine but not a V6

O-60 in 5.2 secs and limited top speed of 155mph

 

[os951]

Price of good 951 & S2's are getting higher and higher. These are becoming classic cars which for example Boxster or 996's will never be. For example here in Finland nobody seems to understand this. Some low KM cars has been sold to Germany for a good price. Do not sell your good condition RHD cars to overseas, you will regret it later. I have own my 951 almost 15 years, will never sell it, would buy more of these fine cars.