1991 Turbo, 25,000 Miles: £20,000 - Discuss

[tref]

Idiot collectors? I knew some people collect cars, never new people collected idiots... If any one knows of one, let me know, we have some idiots at work they can have!

I did write a long post about the difference between my 300+k car and now having a 30k car, but I lost it and couldn't be bothered to retype it!

 

[Neil Haughey]

Its not harsh at all. I would have liked an old air cooled 911 despite the rubbish brakes and awful interior but certain types have gone crazy to collect these things and pushed prices to insane levels. These types want perfect cars to look at rather than drive, they will happily pay top money for a low mileage car and then another load to make it even more perfecter. The really insane will then buy them all in one colour or spend even more money getting a car resprayed a different colour so it fits in nicely with the rest of collection. Its when people start calling cars 'assets' you know you are in trouble.

Yes I would like the cars to be more valued by the wider enthusiast crowd, the 968 CS is there and hopefully the best S2 and turbos will be in a similar place relatively, but be careful what one wishes for if the cars ever get into the 'asset' category of classic cars.

 

[tref]

I listened to someone who is looking for an old 911 as an "investment". Their argument was that their money is doing nothing in the bank, so as long as they don't loose too much, they may as well have an old car in the garage they can enjoy now and again. I can see the sense in that, and who can argue with it, no matter how they der e pleasure from said car? If anything it will raise the standard of the cars that are around, the downside I guess is that it will price some people out of being able to enjoy certain types of cars... But surely that is always the case... I dare say there are multi-millionaires who lament that there are certain cars they will never be able to drive, because they simply don't exist to be driven.

 

[Greg James]

Porsches are out of reach for most that what Porsches are. And old 911 are assets at the moment as much as we my not like that it's fact. But like most assets they will go down to at some point.

 

[MRGT]

Forgive me if I'm not seeing the rationale here, what is the point of paying 20K for a 944 with very low mileage, which will still cost the same to maintain as a 5K car which has been looked after but has 150K miles ?

The only difference I can see is that one of the above can be driven every day (without worrying that every mile you drive is knocking 'x' pounds off the value), and surely that's the point of having one in the first place ?

I'm not trying to talk down values, far from it, but we should be stressing what fantastic drivers cars all 944's are, not how few miles they have covered.

 

[George Elliott]

Many good points being put forward, it seems the thinking is split into, use and expense.

Use is either : drive it or garage queen it

Expense is either, minimise the costs to own and run, or cost is no object.

The "drivers" want to minimise the cars running costs and enjoy the 944 motoring experience
The "Garage Queen" merchants cannot drive the car in the normal sense due to stone chips and miles

Certain cars fit the two groups - well maintained, straight, nice cars with history are perfect for daily use or as second car use..
Special, Rare, Low mileage, and mint condition cars are migrating into bigger money. That includes good Early offset cars, Turbo S non-sunroof cars, Silver Roses.

It does not matter what a few of us think, it happening, across Europe / Far East / Australia / US, there is growing demand for a reducing population of these cars. That is fact.

I would estimate good cars with 100 - 200k miles and a constant history, will rise to £20k in the next 5 years. The special cars will get to double that.

More importantly, the real pleasure is in driving the things.
There will be a security problem though as they increase in value, I notice a 964RS went missing in London Recently. Our cars will need more looking after which is the downside of having been able to use them and no-one took any notice. They are losing their place as Porsche's best kept secret unfortunately

just my 2p
George
944t

 

[Neil Haughey]

That is very rational George, my car buying mantra these days is to go for as low a mileage as I can afford on cars between several years old and a decade old because I firmly believe such cars provide the best VFM. I don't see that logic working on low mileage classic 20+ year old cars for all the reasons already discussed which is sort of the point I was trying to make earlier.

BTW the day I realised I really do not have a collector mentality was when I got to handle a real sword hand Rolex mil sub. As much as I understand the differences to normal ones, the rarity, the double hard so and so military provenance and all that the idea that I was holding probably £40K worth of old watch in my hand was easily the most underwhelming experience I have had in horological terms. I know I am talking about extremes here which is a million miles from where any 944 is at the moment but I find that whole mentality and herd instinct to follow the next rare must have thing to horde to be really perverse, especially in a world where people are putting their heart and soul into their craft and struggling to find buyers for their work because the money is all going on some old car or watch or camera gear etc that 'smart' or trendy people say is where it is all at. It shows a staggering lack of imagination and just underlines everything that is wrong with the capital driven global economy we live in.

Sorry if that offends anyone but I enjoy cars for what they are and in many ways I would like to keep 944s at reasonable prices because it keeps it easier for us to find parts for them, to maintain them and if something goes badly wrong get another one. For those who would like to see 944s included in the current crazy asset bubble ask yourself this simple question: When your car gets to £30K or £50K or whatever will you sell it? and what will you buy then?

 

[pauljmcnulty]

Interesting views that the current car bubble will continue.

I can't see anything other than the same thing happening that's happened every time we get a housing bubble followed by an interest rate rise? One 1/4 point on the interest rates and there's bound to be a panic of some degree in the South East, spreading across the country.

Will the cars follow the same fall as houses? The reason there's a boom is because investment returns are so low, so a car makes sense as an alternative. Once things become more "negative" in the media, the panic sets in incredibly fast and money flows back to the banks.

Perhaps the cheaper classics won't suffer in the same way the exotics did last time, or will the more global market absorb some of the downturn?

 

[Neil Haughey]

I think Paul the difference is that this time round its money from the east which is creating much more demand then there was when many of these things where made or in the recent past. In other words the bubble probably has a bit further to go yet which is scary.

 

[tref]

I think you are both right... It will continue for a whole, but then burst as before... And those with a 944 now can enjoy them then as they can now. I suspect again it will be those buying new cars that expect to appreciate that will catch the cold. There could be benefits for us though... I don't see why a 944 which goes up in value by a few hundred percent should be any more expensive to run than it is now... Indeed it may be that the extra value means that it is suddenly worthwhile for people to develope solutions for some of the problems (thinking of Alasdair's clock LCD as an example).

 

[T3rra]

Meet a guy today at the brightion and hove classic car show.
only owner 26k drives to concourse events and the cat is a like new. Not restored just very very well looked after.

Cream / brown 86 turbo with fuchs. Got a agreed 20k value but I would think it's worth more. No signs off use. Very plastic /rubber looked new. Car was cleaned with cupids

 

[MartinRS2K]

ORIGINAL: T3rra

Meet a guy today at the brightion and hove classic car show.
only owner 26k drives to concourse events and the cat is a like new. Not restored just very very well looked after.

Cream / brown 86 turbo with fuchs. Got a agreed 20k value but I would think it's worth more. No signs off use. Very plastic /rubber looked new. Car was cleaned with cupids

Did you get any pictures of the car?

 

[pauljmcnulty]

ORIGINAL: T3rra

Meet a guy today at the brightion and hove classic car show.
only owner 26k drives to concourse events and the cat is a like new. Not restored just very very well looked after.

Cream / brown 86 turbo with fuchs. Got a agreed 20k value but I would think it's worth more. No signs off use. Very plastic /rubber looked new. Car was cleaned with cupids

If this was the car that showed at the Chateaux Impney concourse, it was the perfect original 944.

There's such a fine line between a car that's totally original, and showing just enough "patina", and a car that's had a lot of work done to make it, arguably, better than original.

Cavan's pre-production 944 is another example. Interesting car to begin with, one-owner and complete history, low miles and near-perfect original condition. I don't know if £20K, or £200K is a correct value to put on something so impossible to replace/replicate?

I'd still value a £500 Lux, run for a year until it broke, far higher in "fun" though. I don't imagine many of us, on our death-beds, wishing we'd driven our cars less? [&o]

 

[aporschefan]

ORIGINAL: pauljmcnulty


If this was the car that showed at the Chateaux Impney concourse, it was the perfect original 944.

Same one.

I would have thought its worth more than £20k to a collector or someone who wants to carry on caring for it in the same way as the existing owner.

 

[pauljmcnulty]

I think Paul the difference is that this time round its money from the east which is creating much more demand then there was when many of these things where made or in the recent past. In other words the bubble probably has a bit further to go yet which is scary.

A valid point.

My stepson wanted to buy his rented studio apartment in Waterloo last year, worth about £450K at the time. The landlord was asking nearer £700K, as there was so much Russian, Japanese and Chinese money flowing in to central London.

With that level of discrepancy between real values, and money (much of it suspect) looking for a secure place to "hide", there's a way to go yet with UK investments.

Of course, we could still get UKIP acheiving a significant vote at the elections next year. That will see foreign money disappear overnight.

 

[awright944]

I took a photo of the cream 944

 

[T3rra]

Didn't take pics buy I did thouch it. Think my skin was dirty even underneath. Good thing is its used even though very little it's driven to and from. Even had the orginal tax disc holder. Header tank was brown but very thing else was still zinc plated. Oringal jubilee clips and belt tensioner despite the improve type been recommended. Car was as factory. 951 fuch

 

[Diver944]

We all spend our hard earned in a way that brings pleasure to ourselves so it's a very personal decision and no ones individual reasons are wrong

I'm with Neil and can't understand those that spend top whack only to keep the car in a garage and drive it a few thousand miles a year. I love my car and have done since I bought it in 1998, and it keeps giving me fun every time I drive it. It cost me £12,000 and I have spent over £40,000 keeping it going, replacing parts when they feel less than 100% and sorting the paintwork when needed and have loved every penny of it. Next will be a complete interior retrim and then an engine rebuild when the oil consumption starts going up

It's never let me down at the side of the road (or track) and I dare say it will be a hell of a lot more reliable than any of the garage queens advertised here if they are suddenly driven as intended after all the years standing.

Saying that I would happily buy one of the low milers at inflated price. Spend a few thousand getting the mechanicals and seals safely up to date and then drive it properly until it reached the 217,000 miles like mine

If I had the money []

 

[Neil Haughey]

Paul there is a guy opposite my mums in Kingsley who is one such person. He showed me his TVR griff once, he bought the thing low miles then spent a fortune getting it nut and bolt rebuilt and resprayed. He has it in a carcoon in one of his several lock ups. When I looked at it closely 8 years ago it really did look factory fresh perfect, in fact I have never seen a TVR before or since that looked so perfect so better than factory fresh really. My brother tells me he showed it to him as well a couple of years back and it looked the same. No one has ever seen it come out of his lock up. It does raise the question of how much does he really like TVRs or is he more obsessed with the idea of owning the perfect griff. He seemed really in love with the whole TVR thing when he showed me the car the first time but to have it and then never use just seems utterly bonkers to me. I think there is some interesting psychological stuff in there around the human condition and how the mind works.

 

[MartinRS2K]

ORIGINAL: awright944

I took a photo of the cream 944

Unusual colour but I really like that especially with the Fuch rims []